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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Pandora Bokks
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
31
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Posted - 2016.02.14 16:31:09 -
[121] - Quote
Dr Caymus wrote:Pandora Bokks wrote:Dr Caymus wrote:The new skill system: Dawn of a New Era or Epic Fail
Perhaps I owe CCP an apology for making a goal of leading the skillpoint group for the last 13 years, I must have offended them greatly for them to do what they have done to the system.
However, now a complete mockery of the system has been made with a 3-day-old character. Was that not seen coming?
This could have been done much more effectively with more controls: more tiers with decreasing marginal gains at higher SP levels, daily limits, or whatever.
Back up and restore, anyone? I feel a bit sorry for you, but to be honest - paying a subscription for 13 years in a row is nothing I would call an achievement. If it is that important for you, you an get back to top position in a couple of hours. You're missing the point, Pandora. You are correct, I have the resources to take this char to max if I wanted, but this isn't about me, its about the game... its history, its lore, its value, its perception within the gaming industry.
This is something I can agree with. I do not like the introduction of SPI, especially not in the way it was done. In my opinion, the fact that someone else is now leading the max SP group is just one of the least important implications. I would feel different if I was in your shoes of course - not sure whether I would use the same arguments you did. |
SKINE DMZ
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
506
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Posted - 2016.02.14 16:31:38 -
[122] - Quote
Tippia when will you update your skill plan? Something a little bit more ISK orientated for efficiency
I disagree
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Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
5158
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Posted - 2016.02.14 16:34:56 -
[123] - Quote
Quote:the history and progression of your character. The part that no longer matters since it's optional.
IT WAS ALWAYS OPTIONAL. No wonder some people dont pay attention to it. They only see SP.
Everyone had SP like a dog had his bone.
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ =ƒÅ¦ - my sandcastle
Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
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Rien Katelo
Morning Star Expeditionary Force
3
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Posted - 2016.02.14 16:35:30 -
[124] - Quote
This doesn't effect my game play so meh! What do I care. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
2523
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Posted - 2016.02.14 16:36:01 -
[125] - Quote
Dalto Bane wrote: The bright side is that the SP come from somewhere, and at a degraded amount.... and eventually the harvest will be reaped, and the price of SP will inflate, etc, etc. ... Multiple characters -> SP farms.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
I will be voting for Xenuria because...
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Indahmawar Fazmarai
4724
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Posted - 2016.02.14 16:38:50 -
[126] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Nana Skalski wrote:We have different ideas about what is your history and what is experience. Time is not significant like you would want to see it. What matters most is what you have been able to do. GǪin other words, the history and progression of your character. The part that no longer matters since it's optional. Avvy wrote:History doesn't really matter Not any more, no. That's why something has been lost: because the organic growth of a character is gone, replaced with a short-sighted cash grab. Quote:Seems that they are trying to modernise the game, I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing The problem is that they're not really doing that. There's nothing GÇ£modernGÇ¥ about these kinds of time skips. What they are doing is confirming some of the worst preconceived notions that players have had of EVE over almost its entire time on the market GÇö notions that were never actually true, but are at least somewhat closer to being so today. This is indeed a bad thing; catering to uninformed opinions pretty much always are.
It would be terrible for the future of the game if new players think that they will need to buy SP on top of paying a subscription to play the game. And the fact that SP are sold contradicts all arguments that low SP characters are acceptable.
And for what?
There is one scary sentence in the devblog:
"We werenGÇÖt sure exactly what to expect but it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players or give you more freedom with your own characters."
So, what will be next?
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
305
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Posted - 2016.02.14 16:43:04 -
[127] - Quote
Poddington Bare wrote:Cara Forelli wrote:Wouldn't it be funny if CCP suddenly put clone costs back in? Yes. Yes it would.
But, unlikely especially after all the fuss to get them removed. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
27090
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Posted - 2016.02.14 16:46:55 -
[128] - Quote
Nana Skalski wrote:IT WAS ALWAYS OPTIONAL. No. Before, you always had to actually plan ahead and think about where you wanted to end up. Depending on the time required, it was also a good idea to consider whether everything would have changed by the time you got there.
Now, you can ignore that part and just get whatever you want when you want to match whatever situation you're currently in. Now, it's optional; previously, since you couldn't skip time, it was not.
SKINE DMZ wrote:Tippia when will you update your skill plan? Something a little bit more ISK orientated for efficiency I have no interest in catering to this design error, and since the people who actually benefit from it are older players, they fall outside the intended audience for such a plan.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.3 - Vanguard Edition.
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Darkblad
Hilfe is like Free Entertainment
133
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Posted - 2016.02.14 16:48:13 -
[129] - Quote
Dr Caymus wrote:This could have been done much more effectively with more controls: more tiers with decreasing marginal gains at higher SP levels, daily limits, or whatever.
Back up and restore, anyone? I don't think for a second that CCP did'nt expect that to happen (3 day char leading the SP board). Things like further deminishing returns or delay before further skill injection would've just moved the moment this happened (a bit) further into the future. I suspect CCP to be fully aware of that as well as of the consequences and they don't care for the impact this (and other results of the new age) may have on the game's heart and community.
Players still can follow their own path in eve, can continue to tell and write their own story. Nothing changed there. The community will most likely change, though. Some will leave the game (like I will), some will return and there'll certainly be new player as well. Just like it happened all the time since 2003.
For me, there's no back up and restore here. CCP just showed (once again) what they want.
Neuspielererfahrung - ISD
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
305
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Posted - 2016.02.14 16:48:25 -
[130] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
So, what will be next?
Hopefully the removal of attributes and attribute implants.
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Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
5158
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Posted - 2016.02.14 16:48:43 -
[131] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Nana Skalski wrote:IT WAS ALWAYS OPTIONAL. No. Before, you always had to actually plan ahead and think about where you wanted to end up. Depending on the time required, it was also a good idea to consider whether everything would have changed by the time you got there.
Bullshit. Character bazaar. Thank you.
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ =ƒÅ¦ - my sandcastle
Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
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Velarra
494
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Posted - 2016.02.14 16:49:09 -
[132] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:So, what will be next?
Pay CCP RL$ for sov on a monthly basis? Or instanced solar systems of a player's design for as long as the rental fee to CCP is maintained?
*j/k |
Samsara Toldya
Academy of Contradictory Behaviour
566
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Posted - 2016.02.14 16:52:20 -
[133] - Quote
When JonnyPew extracted 100m+ SP CCP CEO Hilmar Veigar tweeted, that his mind was blown by this action Or in other words: "We didn't see that coming!"
Can't wait for his Tweet on what this thread is about. With his mind already blown away by JonnyPew I'm afraid IronBank might have blown Hilmars balls... in one way or the other. |
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale Sustainable Whaling Inc.
96
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Posted - 2016.02.14 16:52:50 -
[134] - Quote
Edwin Rothbard wrote: Therein lies the problem: CCP has now created a system where the only way to stay competitive on SP is to pay RL cash for SP on top of your monthly subscription fee. This is the very definition of p2win. What's worse is that most p2win games are 'free' from a monthly subscription fee but with all the microtransactions. CCP has done one better by requiring both the month subscription fee AND the microtransactions. Not to mention CCP's idea of "micro" is really more "macro."
This looks great on a spreadsheet from an account's point of view, but for the health and longevity of the game it's bad.
Since when does SP equal winning? SP enables you to do stuff, it doesn't teach you anything, nor does it really give you an advantage.. There's only so many SP you can pump into something and then it's maxed out. He can now do everything he wants in EVE. Good for him. I bet he still knows apeshit about most of the ships and would die a horrible death in them. This certainly isn't pay to win. It's more like pay to lose, as evidenced by a certain 4-day-old Ark pilot.
When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
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Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
601
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Posted - 2016.02.14 16:53:39 -
[135] - Quote
Short of a public flailing or self-immolation, I don't know what more I could've done to raise awareness against sp trading prior to its implementation. From the moment I heard about it, I recognized it was a game-changing paradigm shift and that all the noobs in support were incapable of rationalizing what it would mean for vets & the game. The lack of feedback from CCP made it clear this was happening irrespective of any consequences.
I thought the best thing I could do was to make it an issue in the next CSM election. After visiting CSM watch, I posted a short, thoughtful comment on one of their interviews asking them to mention sp trading - because it was important to many players. They deleted it. I then went to our own CSM forums and realized that Xenuria is a top contender for CSM XI and (from his thread) excels apparently at having no platform outside "reform" - whatever that means (because he won't tell you.) So that's a joke. The current CSM allowed it to happen and many are running again. That's a joke. I'm so uninvested in the game atm, that if I can't find out which candidates support/endorse sp trading in EVE - I'm not even going to participate in the election.
Like many others, it makes me pretty ******* sad to see a 4-day old character make EVE history by becoming the first player with maxxed-out sp. When players wrote that sp trading would cheapen and demean the beauty of EVE - this is but one example of what we meant. SP trading is not EVE. Instant gratification is not EVE. What would be even better? If, with his 75 trillion isk, he did it 9 more times and became the first 10 toons to reach maxxed-out sp in EVE. Woooo!
At this stage in the game, what can one reasonably recommend to CCP RE: skill trading? Removing sp trading is out. The paradigm shift has occurred. Anyone with children will attest that the only thing worse than not giving a child the candy he's throwing a fit over is taking away that candy after you've already given it to him.
So that's out.
Would arbitrary limits or the original plan of diminishing returns have helped? Probably not. It would have cost Ironbank more to max-out but he still could have done it easily. And not allowing anyone past x sp amt to inject skills would only shift anger to a different group. The idea is fail. This is a conceptual failure that shouldn't have ever been proposed. You can't tweak it into success.
If this was a purely business decision, nothing will change unless the loss from unsubs exceeds the gains from sales. And while many vets are now realizing that something's rotten with this idea, a majority of the 65% of players <3 years old must love it. Regardless, it'll take time for those financials to materialize.
My own experience with sp trading has been full of ups & downs. I hated it. Decided to try it. Felt dirty & unsubbed. Recanted and went all in - hacking up my alts. I ended up with max gunnery skills & a bunch of ships I couldn't fly but don't feel like I earned any of it. Now I'm wishing I could un-do all the changes I made. So I'm taking a few days off to see if I can re-spark the magic.
And if not - well, I'm still unsubbed.
Don't worry Dr. Caymus - we won't forget.
YK |
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
408
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Posted - 2016.02.14 16:57:19 -
[136] - Quote
Edwin Rothbard wrote:Pandora Bokks wrote:[quote=Dr Caymus]I feel a bit sorry for you, but to be honest - paying a subscription for 13 years in a row is nothing I would call an achievement. If it is that important for you, you an get back to top position in a couple of hours.
Therein lies the problem: CCP has now created a system where the only way to stay competitive on SP is to pay RL cash for SP on top of your monthly subscription fee. This is the very definition of p2win. What's worse is that most p2win games are 'free' from a monthly subscription fee but with all the microtransactions. CCP has done one better by requiring both the month subscription fee AND the microtransactions. Not to mention CCP's idea of "micro" is really more "macro." This looks great on a spreadsheet from an account's point of view, but for the health and longevity of the game it's bad.
Isn't it the people who purchased Extractors to create Injectors that are the ones who paid RL cash? Seems IronBank simply used ISK he already had, ISK that wasn't gained by spending RL cash...? I've purchased a few Injectors, for example, with extra ISK I had laying around. Didn't spend a RL dime more than my sub cost for them.
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Serda Ghekon
Politburo
0
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Posted - 2016.02.14 16:59:58 -
[137] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
So, what will be next?
SP progression was (for me at least) the only reason for EVE to have a subscription fee. Coupled with the infrastructure upgrade http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/tranquility-tech-3/ and the desire to increase the number of players I can only think of one thing: free to play. |
Dawny Star
Control-Space DARKNESS.
7
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Posted - 2016.02.14 17:01:32 -
[138] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:Edwin Rothbard wrote:Pandora Bokks wrote:[quote=Dr Caymus]I feel a bit sorry for you, but to be honest - paying a subscription for 13 years in a row is nothing I would call an achievement. If it is that important for you, you an get back to top position in a couple of hours.
Therein lies the problem: CCP has now created a system where the only way to stay competitive on SP is to pay RL cash for SP on top of your monthly subscription fee. This is the very definition of p2win. What's worse is that most p2win games are 'free' from a monthly subscription fee but with all the microtransactions. CCP has done one better by requiring both the month subscription fee AND the microtransactions. Not to mention CCP's idea of "micro" is really more "macro." This looks great on a spreadsheet from an account's point of view, but for the health and longevity of the game it's bad. Isn't it the people who purchased Extractors to create Injectors that are the ones who paid RL cash? Seems IronBank simply used ISK he already had, ISK that wasn't gained by spending RL cash...? I've purchased a few Injectors, for example, with extra ISK I had laying around. Didn't spend a RL dime more than my sub cost for them.
Not quite
Extractors are only seeded via someone buying them with AUR, and AUR can only come from one of 3 places
Plex to AUR conversion - Someone bought a PLEX, PLEX can only be generated by RL Cash RL Cash to AUR purchase. Historically gifted AUR from CCP - There's no damn way they gave enough away for this weeks events :p
So people have absolutely been generating CCP income with this. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
27090
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Posted - 2016.02.14 17:03:07 -
[139] - Quote
Nana Skalski wrote:Bullshit. Character bazaar. You mean the place where you had to plan ahead and think about where you wanted to end up, and depending on the time required, it was a good idea to consider whether everything would have changed by the time you got there (since the product might no longer be a viable build at that point)? And where, if something had very recently changed, chances are that no-one had created the build you wanted all that time ago since they were building for a different meta. The place that just gave you a character, that you now had to plan for and organically grow in the long-term since you still couldn't just match whatever situation you found yourself in?
About as far away from optional as you could come. The reason it worked was exactly because it didn't offer any way around the time expenditure and organic growth that create the history a character, or around its existence at a specific time in the history of the game GÇö factors that have now become completely optional.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.3 - Vanguard Edition.
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
305
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Posted - 2016.02.14 17:03:38 -
[140] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Nana Skalski wrote:IT WAS ALWAYS OPTIONAL. No. Before, you always had to actually plan ahead and think about where you wanted to end up. Depending on the time required, it was also a good idea to consider whether everything would have changed by the time you got there. Now, you can ignore that part and just get whatever you want when you want to match whatever situation you're currently in. Now, it's optional; previously, since you couldn't skip time, it was not.
Unless you purchased a character from the character bazaar of course. |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
27091
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Posted - 2016.02.14 17:04:54 -
[141] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Unless you purchased a character from the character bazaar of course. No. The exact same rules applied, because what you got was a character, not a bunch of SP.
Quote:Ok, just seen that was covered in post #131 GǪand the reasons why it's ignorant BS was covered in post #139.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.3 - Vanguard Edition.
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Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale Sustainable Whaling Inc.
98
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Posted - 2016.02.14 17:06:42 -
[142] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:From the moment I heard about it, I recognized it was a game-changing paradigm shift and that all the noobs in support were incapable of rationalizing what it would mean for vets & the game. I've started playing EVE in 2003 and quit in 2009. Came back 2012, made new accounts (I've had my reasons) and while I'm a bittervet in many regards and certainly do love rambling about various things, SP trading isn't one of them. There should have been a limit to how many SP one can inject, like up to 100M SP and then no more, but even without that limit, I don't really care about it. All that SP gives me is the ability to use certain modules or fly certain ships. I don't get the experience to actually do that properly along with the SP, I can just do it. Not more.
I personally never really gave a crap about SP. I won't use injectors, as I simply wouldn't know what to train (perhaps some shield skills at last, lol). I'm just going to continue as before and train the normal way. Those looking for instant gratification have now something that will stick them to EVE at least for a little while, whereas before they probably would never have subscribed, so on this avenue more income for CCP.
My opinion on SP trading is a neutral one. I'm neither in favor, nor against it. Let whoever needs it use it, I certainly do not.
When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
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Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
813
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Posted - 2016.02.14 17:10:58 -
[143] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
So, what will be next?
Hopefully the removal of attributes and attribute implants.
My vote.
"Tomahawks?"
"----in' A, right?"
"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."
"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
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Indahmawar Fazmarai
4724
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Posted - 2016.02.14 17:15:08 -
[144] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
So, what will be next?
Hopefully the removal of attributes and attribute implants.
That vould be necessary if CCP wanted to sell skilling as a microtransaction service for F2P accounts.
CCP Seagull: "EVE should be a universe where the infrastructure you build and fight over is as player driven and dynamic as the EVE market is now".
62% of players: "We're not interested. May we have Plan B, please?"
CCP Seagull: "What Plan B?"
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Edwin Rothbard
Interstellar Arbitrage
32
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Posted - 2016.02.14 17:15:23 -
[145] - Quote
Linus Gorp wrote:nor does it really give you an advantage..
I'm sure new pilots with 400k sp will agree that having max skills conveys no extra advantages such as trading skills, PI skills, production skills, research skills, ability to fit t2 modules, fits you can actually use because you don't have all the pg/cpu restrictions, or the ability to hop in and fly any ship you like right now.
Just because someone doesn't have experience flying a particular ship doesn't mean it's not an advantage to be able to fly it.
Your assertion that having max skills isn't an advantage is nonsense.
Rothbard's Casino
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Hairtrigger
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
47
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Posted - 2016.02.14 17:15:35 -
[146] - Quote
well, thats it for me folks.
got 3 days left of my subs ive been paying for since 2004.
should of seen the writing on the wall years ago when all the original devs started jumpng ship and they started hiring people like fozzie, verone, kill2 etc.
but this latest money grabbin tactic by hilmar is just too much.
been saying this for years, that incompetent tool needs sacking.
he is slowly kiling this game like a cancer |
Darkblad
Hilfe is like Free Entertainment
134
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Posted - 2016.02.14 17:15:57 -
[147] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:So, what will be next? Play for free, SP for AUR only Special perks for subscribers (an upcoming feature called SP over time).
Neuspielererfahrung - ISD
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
2458
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Posted - 2016.02.14 17:18:14 -
[148] - Quote
Hairtrigger wrote:well, thats it for me folks.
got 3 days left of my subs ive been paying for since 2004.
should of seen the writing on the wall years ago when all the original devs started jumpng ship and they started hiring people like fozzie, verone, kill2 etc.
but this latest money grabbin tactic by hilmar is just too much.
been saying this for years, that incompetent tool needs sacking.
he is slowly kiling this game like a cancer
could i please have some of your stuff?
"Yeah. Put your tears in a jet can and leave them on your undock for your assailants to pick up. If they're camping you, I'm sure they're going to get thirsty." - Darth Squeemus
...............................
Angel Cartel || Serpentis
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Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale Sustainable Whaling Inc.
98
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Posted - 2016.02.14 17:20:04 -
[149] - Quote
Edwin Rothbard wrote:Linus Gorp wrote:nor does it really give you an advantage.. I'm sure new pilots with 400k sp will agree that having max skills conveys no extra advantages such as trading skills, PI skills, production skills, research skills, ability to fit t2 modules, fits you can actually use because you don't have all the pg/cpu restrictions, or the ability to hop in and fly any ship you like right now. Just because someone doesn't have experience flying a particular ship doesn't mean it's not an advantage to be able to fly it. Your assertion that having max skills isn't an advantage is nonsense. A 10-year vet with 2M SP will rip apart a 5-day newbro with maxed out bought skills every day. But you're right on the part of Trading / PI / Production skills. I've never really thought about that. But if anything, only trading skills might have an impact (less taxes to pay), as whoever couldn't be bothered with it before certainly can't be bothered with it after.
When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
307
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Posted - 2016.02.14 17:20:26 -
[150] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Avvy wrote:Unless you purchased a character from the character bazaar of course. No. The exact same rules applied, because what you got was a character, not a bunch of SP.
What you got was a character with a bunch of sp already trained by someone else. Plus you get to choose which character and how that sp is distributed.
So although you couldn't put the sp exactly where you wanted too, you could buy a character that closely matches what you wanted, so not really a great deal of difference. |
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