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Cael Roth
Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 06:38:06 -
[1] - Quote
So, I'm sure I'm going to get a lot of crap from this post and I don't really care. I think we can all agree ( the gankees ) that high sec suicide ganking has gotten out of hand. New players to eve cannot safely do anything in high sec without running into these players who are there only to stat pad their killboards and cause grief. Thats all fun but it's made an environment that is not friendly to new players entering a game as immersive as eve. With new games like Star Citizen, and space games becoming more popular I think eve needs to be more friendly to new players to keep the community growing. Players are losing trillions in isk with almost no way to retaliate against the players that are committing the high sec ganking. Quite frankly it's a broken system, and It needs to be fixed. I've always been a conservative person so I recommend you kill two birds with one stone and fix this ganking problem with another broken system, bounties.
What I'm recommending is that the bounty system is changed. Anyone that commits a high sec gank would have a bounty placed on them by the NPC of the region they committed the act. The bounty should be equal to 10% of the value of the ship they aggressed and could only be claimed by the corporation or alliance of the player that was ganked to prevent paying the person/people who committed the act. Additionally, the player that was ganked should have the option to increase the bounty at their own personal cost. Secondly I'm recommending that a new agent " Bounty Hunter " be added to the game and he would be able to give the location of any available player that has an active bounty on them for a price, and only be able to give the location of the gankers or players with bounties if they were in high sec space. I'm also recommending that the players that die with NPC bounties not be allowed to activate jump clones in the NPC region in which they committed the act of aggression for 1 hour after their death ( If they didnt a temporary clone would be actived for the 1 hour until they would be forced to choose a clone to jump to ).
Some players might be saying, well thats what the war dec system is for and sure, you can war dec these gankers and then what? Anyone that shows up with a fleet will be sitting outside station waiting to fight the cowards that wont undock to fight them. Regardless of the outcome I think you, CCP, have an obligation to your players to fix this. It's an exploited game mechanic and is costing you customers and ruining the community. This is a game we as a community love and I'm sure we all want to see it flourish and expand. Please guys feel free to add and expand upon this idea, also feel free to crap on this post. I like seeing you get so worked up. |
Hopelesshobo
Tactical Nuclear Penguin's
558
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 07:09:39 -
[2] - Quote
So personally, ever since CCP banned broadcasting, I have never felt safer in highsec. The only part I think is OP in regards to ganking is being able to bump someone as much as they want at no cost, but that's an entire other threadnaught.
Cael Roth wrote:With new games like Star Citizen, and space games becoming more popular I think eve needs to be more friendly to new players to keep the community growing. Players are losing trillions in isk with almost no way to retaliate against the players that are committing the high sec ganking.
The way you counter the gank is to prevent them from ganking their targeted ship, while forcing them to lose their ship. I will let you come up with how you can do that, but during my mining days, there was a certain ganker that decided to gank my alt. At which point I added him to my watchlist and as soon as I would see him login, I would hunt him down and interdict on his gank. It got to the point where the local gankers would actually attempt to gank my ship instead of the mass fleet of barges on grid.
Cael Roth wrote:Some players might be saying, well thats what the war dec system is for and sure, you can war dec these gankers and then what? Anyone that shows up with a fleet will be sitting outside station waiting to fight the cowards that wont undock to fight them. This suggestion isn't meant to be the end of high sec ganking in general but to give players a way to fight back and limit what is targeted for ganking.
Why do you need to wardec a group of people that are all -10? The only people at that point that would be worth wardeccing are their scouts. The number one thing you need to do to interdict a gank is to identify how they initiate a gank, and identify all parties involved. If you do that, it becomes painfully obvious what is about to happen.
Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1925
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 07:16:16 -
[3] - Quote
Quote:New players to eve cannot safely do anything in high sec without running into these players who are there only to stat pad their killboards and cause grief.
Good. You're not supposed to be able to safely do anything anywhere in Eve.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Corvald Tyrska
Dha'Vargar
64
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 08:05:26 -
[4] - Quote
I could be wrong as I am rather tired after a long day at work but don't Kill Rights and Locator Agents cover most of that (aside from the Jump Clone stuff)? |
Iain Cariaba
2648
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 08:05:36 -
[5] - Quote
Cael Roth wrote:1. I think we can all agree ( the gankees ) that high sec suicide ganking has gotten out of hand. 2. New players to eve cannot safely do anything in high sec without running into these players who are there only to stat pad their killboards and cause grief. Thats all fun but it's made an environment that is not friendly to new players entering a game as immersive as eve. 3. With new games like Star Citizen, and space games becoming more popular I think eve needs to be more friendly to new players to keep the community growing. 4.Players are losing trillions in isk with almost no way to retaliate against the players that are committing the high sec ganking. 5. Quite frankly it's a broken system, and It needs to be fixed. 6.I've always been a conservative person so I recommend you kill two birds with one stone and fix this ganking problem with another broken system, bounties. 1. No, we don't. As a mission runner/hauler/industrialist/marketeer in highsec, I'm quite in favor of ganking. I am aware of the ways to keep myself safe, and utilize each and every single one of them. Guess what, I'm nearly 100% safe. 2. Disregarding you insulting words ascribing motives to people you know nothing about, the rest of this line can be filed under "working as intended." Don't believe me? Read the New Player FAQ. 3. So? EvE exists to fill a niche in the gaming market. As long as it does that, it will thrive. When it stops doing that, i.e. by making the changes you suggest here, then it will fail. 4. You are incorrect. Your choice to not use the tools provided does not mean they do not exist. 5. No, what is broken is your belief that the system is broken. The system is fine, if you just play the game as intended. 6. Ah, yes. Let's look at this wonderful idea of your's.
Cael Roth wrote:What I'm recommending is that the bounty system is changed. Anyone that commits a high sec gank would have a bounty placed on them by the NPC of the region they committed the act. The bounty should be equal to 10% of the value of the ship they aggressed and could only be claimed by the corporation or alliance of the player that was ganked to prevent paying the person/people who committed the act. Additionally, the player that was ganked should have the option to increase the bounty at their own personal cost. Secondly I'm recommending that a new agent " Bounty Hunter " be added to the game and he would be able to give the location of any available player that has an active bounty on them for a price, and only be able to give the location of the gankers or players with bounties if they were in high sec space. I'm also recommending that the players that die with NPC bounties not be allowed to activate jump clones in the NPC region in which they committed the act of aggression for 1 hour after their death ( If they didnt have another clone a temporary clone would be actived for the 1 hour until they would be forced to choose a clone to jump to ). So, you want to add NPC bounty to gankers? You apparently don't realize that this would have a net effect of zero. In fact, the gankers I know would like nothing more than for people to shoot at them more.
As for the clone jump idea, really? You apparently don't realize how rarely anyone bothers to shoot at gankers, even though most of them are already legal targets for all and sundry. Do you really think restricting them from operating in a particular empire's space would make a lick of difference when it doesn't really take long to get pretty much anywhere in highsec in a travel fit frigate?
Cael Roth wrote:Some players might be saying, well thats what the war dec system is for and sure, you can war dec these gankers and then what? Anyone that shows up with a fleet will be sitting outside station waiting to fight the cowards that wont undock to fight them. Before you further libel the gankers, answer this question. When was the last time you undocked to overwhelming firepower? Sitting in station while a hostile fleet sits on the undock isn't cowardly, it's smart.
Cael Roth wrote:1. This suggestion isn't meant to be the end of high sec ganking in general but to give players a way to fight back and limit what is targeted for ganking. 2. Regardless of the outcome I think you, CCP, have an obligation to your players to fix this. It's an exploited game mechanic and is costing you customers... 3. ... and ruining the community. 4. This is a game we as a community love and I'm sure we all want to see it flourish and expand. 1. Repeat after me: One more nerf and it will be balanced. 2. First, it's not an exploit. CCP has stated this numerous times. Secondly, I require citation as to the fact that ganking is costing CCP customers. You assert this as a fact, provide numbers to prove it. 3. No, your idea would ruin the community. I happen to like the fact that I can lose everything if I make a mistake. 4. You don't want it to flourish and expand. You want to bring Trammel to EvE, and therefore kill the game like Trammel did to Ultima.
Sorry all for the wall of text.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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Morrigan LeSante
Senex Legio
1219
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 08:37:50 -
[6] - Quote
Cael Roth wrote:I think we can all agree ( the gankees ) that high sec suicide ganking has gotten out of hand. New players to eve cannot safely do anything in high sec without running into these players who are there only to stat pad their killboards and cause grief.
I'll keep this brief and to the point: What a load of shite. |
Tabyll Altol
Breaking.Bad Circle-Of-Two
152
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 09:07:05 -
[7] - Quote
Cael Roth wrote:So, I'm sure I'm going to get a lot of crap from this post and I don't really care. I think we can all agree ( the gankees ) that high sec suicide ganking has gotten out of hand. New players to eve cannot safely do anything in high sec without running into these players who are there only to stat pad their killboards and cause grief. Thats all fun but it's made an environment that is not friendly to new players entering a game as immersive as eve. With new games like Star Citizen, and space games becoming more popular I think eve needs to be more friendly to new players to keep the community growing. Players are losing trillions in isk with almost no way to retaliate against the players that are committing the high sec ganking. Quite frankly it's a broken system, and It needs to be fixed. I've always been a conservative person so I recommend you kill two birds with one stone and fix this ganking problem with another broken system, bounties.
What I'm recommending is that the bounty system is changed. Anyone that commits a high sec gank would have a bounty placed on them by the NPC of the region they committed the act. The bounty should be equal to 10% of the value of the ship they aggressed and could only be claimed by the corporation or alliance of the player that was ganked to prevent paying the person/people who committed the act. Additionally, the player that was ganked should have the option to increase the bounty at their own personal cost. Secondly I'm recommending that a new agent " Bounty Hunter " be added to the game and he would be able to give the location of any available player that has an active bounty on them for a price, and only be able to give the location of the gankers or players with bounties if they were in high sec space. I'm also recommending that the players that die with NPC bounties not be allowed to activate jump clones in the NPC region in which they committed the act of aggression for 1 hour after their death ( If they didnt have another clone a temporary clone would be actived for the 1 hour until they would be forced to choose a clone to jump to ).
Some players might be saying, well thats what the war dec system is for and sure, you can war dec these gankers and then what? Anyone that shows up with a fleet will be sitting outside station waiting to fight the cowards that wont undock to fight them. This suggestion isn't meant to be the end of high sec ganking in general but to give players a way to fight back and limit what is targeted for ganking. Regardless of the outcome I think you, CCP, have an obligation to your players to fix this. It's an exploited game mechanic and is costing you customers and ruining the community. This is a game we as a community love and I'm sure we all want to see it flourish and expand. Please guys feel free to add and expand upon this idea, also feel free to crap on this post. I like seeing you get so worked up.
Be glad the gankers are one part that keeps the economy running and force players to buy new ships and stuff.
-1 |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25920
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 09:30:43 -
[8] - Quote
Cael Roth wrote:1: So, I'm sure I'm going to get a lot of crap from this post and I don't really care. 2: I think we can all agree ( the gankees ) that high sec suicide ganking has gotten out of hand. 3: New players to eve cannot safely do anything in high sec without running into these players who are there only to stat pad their killboards and cause grief. 4: Thats all fun but it's made an environment that is not friendly to new players entering a game as immersive as eve. 5: With new games like Star Citizen, and space games becoming more popular I think eve needs to be more friendly to new players to keep the community growing. 6: Players are losing trillions in isk with almost no way to retaliate against the players that are committing the high sec ganking. 7: Quite frankly it's a broken system, and It needs to be fixed.
1: Yes you are, and we don't care that you don't care. 2: Speak for yourself, as a hisec trader/miner/producer/hauler/mass-murderer of NPCs, gankers are a good source of income and provide me with plenty of content. 3: New players in Eve are vulnerable because of their lack of knowledge; most of the gankers I know of will go out of their way to help new players who show a good attitude to loss, they give their knowledge freely if approached right. 4: Ganking is inline with the setting of Eve, piracy and murder in a dystopia seems pretty immersive to me. 5: lol SC. While there may well be other internet spaceships games out there, they're not aimed at the niche market that Eve fills; they're aimed at the mainstream market, for the most part that market demographic isn't interested in Eve beyond reading about our shenanigans in the press. 6: There's plenty of ways to retaliate, that people choose not to use them is irrelevant. 7: Quite frankly, you have no idea what you're on about.
Quote:What I'm recommending is that the bounty system is changed. Anyone that commits a high sec gank would have a bounty placed on them by the NPC of the region they committed the act. The bounty should be equal to 10% of the value of the ship they aggressed and could only be claimed by the corporation or alliance of the player that was ganked to prevent paying the person/people who committed the act. Additionally, the player that was ganked should have the option to increase the bounty at their own personal cost. Secondly I'm recommending that a new agent " Bounty Hunter " be added to the game and he would be able to give the location of any available player that has an active bounty on them for a price, and only be able to give the location of the gankers or players with bounties if they were in high sec space. I'm also recommending that the players that die with NPC bounties not be allowed to activate jump clones in the NPC region in which they committed the act of aggression for 1 hour after their death ( If they didnt have another clone a temporary clone would be actived for the 1 hour until they would be forced to choose a clone to jump to ). TL;DR You're too lazy too do anything so you want CCP to do it for you, via the proxy of NPCs and further nerfs to a profession that is a mere shadow of its former self.
Quote:Some players might be saying, well thats what the war dec system is for and sure, you can war dec these gankers and then what? Anyone that shows up with a fleet will be sitting outside station waiting to fight the cowards that wont undock to fight them. This suggestion isn't meant to be the end of high sec ganking in general but to give players a way to fight back and limit what is targeted for ganking. Regardless of the outcome I think you, CCP, have an obligation to your players to fix this. It's an exploited game mechanic and is costing you customers and ruining the community. This is a game we as a community love and I'm sure we all want to see it flourish and expand. Please guys feel free to add and expand upon this idea, also feel free to crap on this post. I like seeing you get so worked up. If you want to fight back, try using the tools and mechanics that you, and everybody else in the game, already have to their fullest extent; like the gankers have to.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
2214
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 09:46:38 -
[9] - Quote
Cael Roth wrote:So, I'm sure I'm going to get a lot of crap from this post and I don't really care. I think we can all agree ( the gankees ) that high sec suicide ganking has gotten out of hand. Suicide ganking of miners, at least of exhumers, is near an all time low in the history of the game according to CCP. After the latest freighter buff (and another one is coming in March), there are only 2-3 groups left that have the numbers to attack freighters and Red Frog manages to avoid even them with a 99.8%+ success rate. T2 haulers are near invincible in highsec when flown correctly, and after the last mining ship rebalancing, the Skiff/Procurer is nowhere near profitable to gank.
So no, I am not sure suicide ganking is "out of hand". If anything, suicide ganking is in the worst spot ever in the history of this 12-year old game.
It is trivial to protect yourself from the few gankers left in modern highsec. It is also trivial to explode criminals - they are -10 and free to shoot, and you have the support of the Faction Police which makes it impossible for them to win if you can catch them. Just put a point on them and the NPCs will do the rest for you.
If you choose not to spend the effort, or make the trade-offs necessary to keep yourself safe with the deck so heavily stacked in your favour, you have no one to blame but yourself for any losses.
So, -1. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1571
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 10:54:18 -
[10] - Quote
Cael Roth wrote:New players to eve cannot safely do anything in high sec
soooo..... everything is working as intended?
Citadel worm hole tax
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4210
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 11:21:53 -
[11] - Quote
Let's see.
Just one more nerf, think of the newbies, invoking scam citizen, ganking has no risk, impossible to retaliate against, NPCs doing players jobs, and a call for CCP to change the entire game to suit your personal whims.
I think we have a bad ideas bingo here. |
Iain Cariaba
2651
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 11:30:42 -
[12] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Let's see.
Just one more nerf, think of the newbies, invoking scam citizen, ganking has no risk, impossible to retaliate against, NPCs doing players jobs, and a call for CCP to change the entire game to suit your personal whims.
I think we have a bad ideas bingo here. Don't forget:
Gankers are cowards Ganking is greifing EvE is dying because of gankers Gankers can go to low/null for PvP (inferred in the spiel to have gankers not awake in empire space) That his idea to end ganking isn't intended to actually end ganking It's CCP's job to protect him cause he can't protect himself.
Yeah, there's a couple bingo cards full in that pose.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25922
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 12:09:39 -
[13] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:Danika Princip wrote:Let's see.
Just one more nerf, think of the newbies, invoking scam citizen, ganking has no risk, impossible to retaliate against, NPCs doing players jobs, and a call for CCP to change the entire game to suit your personal whims.
I think we have a bad ideas bingo here. Don't forget: Gankers are cowards Ganking is greifing EvE is dying because of gankers Gankers can go to low/null for PvP (inferred in the spiel to have gankers not awake in empire space) That his idea to end ganking isn't intended to actually end ganking It's CCP's job to protect him cause he can't protect himself. Yeah, there's a couple bingo cards full in that pose. Needs more Mittens, RMT and talk of the blue doughnut to go full Dinsdale though.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
10833
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 12:35:05 -
[14] - Quote
Hello Dryson Droidster
Got a HoleySheet1 corpse? I'll buy it for 200m!
Bumble's Space Log
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Iain Cariaba
2654
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 14:49:55 -
[15] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Iain Cariaba wrote:Danika Princip wrote:Let's see.
Just one more nerf, think of the newbies, invoking scam citizen, ganking has no risk, impossible to retaliate against, NPCs doing players jobs, and a call for CCP to change the entire game to suit your personal whims.
I think we have a bad ideas bingo here. Don't forget: Gankers are cowards Ganking is greifing EvE is dying because of gankers Gankers can go to low/null for PvP (inferred in the spiel to have gankers not awake in empire space) That his idea to end ganking isn't intended to actually end ganking It's CCP's job to protect him cause he can't protect himself. Yeah, there's a couple bingo cards full in that pose. Needs more Mittens, RMT and talk of the blue doughnut to go full Dinsdale though. We can at least be thankful he hasn't pulled a Yige Shen on us.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2596
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 14:51:36 -
[16] - Quote
Who the **** expect to end the great "debate" of ganking by opening another god damn thread?
Can't you all just STFU about it and let the poor horse rest in peace? |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
2228
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 18:00:54 -
[17] - Quote
Cael Roth wrote: is costing you customers I am sure you have some hard evidence for this and are willing to share it with us?
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
14160
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 18:36:15 -
[18] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Iain Cariaba wrote:Danika Princip wrote:Let's see.
Just one more nerf, think of the newbies, invoking scam citizen, ganking has no risk, impossible to retaliate against, NPCs doing players jobs, and a call for CCP to change the entire game to suit your personal whims.
I think we have a bad ideas bingo here. Don't forget: Gankers are cowards Ganking is greifing EvE is dying because of gankers Gankers can go to low/null for PvP (inferred in the spiel to have gankers not awake in empire space) That his idea to end ganking isn't intended to actually end ganking It's CCP's job to protect him cause he can't protect himself. Yeah, there's a couple bingo cards full in that pose. Needs more Mittens, RMT and talk of the blue doughnut to go full Dinsdale though. like this?
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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admiral root
Red Galaxy
3642
|
Posted - 2016.02.15 19:08:38 -
[19] - Quote
@OP - have you considered that the real problem might be you?
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Cael Roth wrote: is costing you customers I am sure you have some hard evidence for this and are willing to share it with us?
LOL.
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
CODE. forum - everyone's welcome (no shiptoasters)
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Tabyll Altol
Breaking.Bad Circle-Of-Two
155
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 12:29:58 -
[20] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Cael Roth wrote:So, I'm sure I'm going to get a lot of crap from this post and I don't really care. I think we can all agree ( the gankees ) that high sec suicide ganking has gotten out of hand. Suicide ganking of miners, at least of exhumers, is near an all time low in the history of the game according to CCP. After the latest freighter buff (and another one is coming in March), there are only 2-3 groups left that have the numbers to attack freighters and Red Frog manages to avoid even them with a 99.8%+ success rate. T2 haulers are near invincible in highsec when flown correctly, and after the last mining ship rebalancing, the Skiff/Procurer is nowhere near profitable to gank. So no, I am not sure suicide ganking is "out of hand". If anything, suicide ganking is in the worst spot ever in the history of this 12-year old game. It is trivial to protect yourself from the few gankers left in modern highsec. It is also trivial to explode criminals - they are -10 and free to shoot, and you have the support of the Faction Police which makes it impossible for them to win if you can catch them. Just put a point on them and the NPCs will do the rest for you. If you choose not to spend the effort, or make the trade-offs necessary to keep yourself safe with the deck so heavily stacked in your favour, you have no one to blame but yourself for any losses. So, -1.
/sign but i-¦m pretty sure that won-¦t be the last nerv.
-1 to the idea like all the other post with the topic "mimimimi i lost a ship" |
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
2492
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 12:50:45 -
[21] - Quote
I like ganking, it lets miners know they are the bottom of the food chain thxbye
FETID now recruiting pvp pilots & corporations | lowsec pvp & piracy - Join FETID
Loyalist to Angel Cartel & Serpentis
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1843
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 14:17:12 -
[22] - Quote
OP - do you realize that the majority of ganks are carried out by -10 ebils that can already be shot at will? Their success has everything to do with their being able to evade everyone for the 40 seconds from undocking until they trade their bucket load of t1 destroyers for their prize.
You adding an NPC bounty would just lead to more profit for them as they undock and have alts shoot them for extra isk.... errr bounties.
There are 3 possibilities here:
1. You're a ganker giggling your patoot off while attempting to improve your bottom line. 2. You're a ganker trolling the crap out of other gankers (and giggling your patoot off). 3. You really don't understand what your are trying to fix. |
Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
1041
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 14:49:59 -
[23] - Quote
@OP: Providence. Go there and stay there. |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
4052
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 14:50:54 -
[24] - Quote
Can someone come up with a bingo card for carebear suggestion threads? This one would be a winner for sure. Not posted by an NPC corp alt though. Which is a shame. |
Gliese Casserres
Fistful of Finns Paisti Syndicate
47
|
Posted - 2016.02.16 19:09:44 -
[25] - Quote
Since the removal of hyperdunking I personally feel that highsec piracy should be left alone from further nerfs. Freighters still die to good old firepower and numbers, poorly fit industrials are alphaed if flying carelessly as they should be. And this comes from an industrialists viewpoint.
Every destroyed ship creates demand, thus drives markets, which makes industrial gameplay viable, and in the end drives moon-conflicts in low-0.0 for moongoo control. All part of the complex system of player driven game. Cut off one link, the whole thing collapses. |
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