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Amarisen Gream
Divine Demise Apocalypse Now.
208
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Posted - 2016.02.17 09:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
I tried to type this up before hand to find any issues This is also a multiple point thread/topic
Point One: Industrial BPOs of items with different size types. I would like to see these BPOs merged then given the ability to select the output type. E.g. Afterburners, MWDs, Torrent Ammo, etc. This would mean that Show Info and the Industrial window would need to have some changes made to display the information.
Point Two: Merge modules which have versions that work in ether medium or low slots. Sensor Arrays, Tracking computers. Merge these items and allow players to fit ether in low or medium slots with the requirements and effects deferring depending on placement. This provides a new category of items which can be fit into different slows and have different effects/stats based in the placement.
Point Theee: Add more API control over Indistrial aspects - to prevent bots or to limit them. Maybe make it so a SSO log in is required for extra functions.
"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger
All of his fury and rage.
He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels"
- The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1
DIDE- is open to new members
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Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
405
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Posted - 2016.02.17 10:55:38 -
[2] - Quote
point 1 - why? having different sizes works quite well atm, I think
point 2 - no module has an identical version that works in 2 different types of slot, they might have a similar module that works in a different type of slot, but never identical
point 3 - how does this prevent or hinder bots?
For posting an idea into F&I:
come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it.....
If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3100
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Posted - 2016.02.17 14:14:54 -
[3] - Quote
So if i just want to make small afterburners, i have to buy the obviously more expensive bpo that builds them all?
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Amarisen Gream
Divine Demise Apocalypse Now.
208
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 14:21:55 -
[4] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:So if i just want to make small afterburners, i have to buy the obviously more expensive bpo that builds them all?
1MN AB cost 64k isk. 10MN AB cost 322k ISK 100MN AB cost 1,612k ISK.
far from breaking the bank. if they where merged and had a price of say 500k isk. You can kill a single rat and get 1 million isk.
"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger
All of his fury and rage.
He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels"
- The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1
DIDE- is open to new members
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
750
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Posted - 2016.02.17 14:45:23 -
[5] - Quote
Amarisen Gream wrote:far from breaking the bank. if they where merged and had a price of say 500k isk. You can kill a single rat and get 1 million isk. At the other end of that spectrum is the new player killing a single rat and getting a few thousand ISK. So new player want to start small in their industrial adventures now has to work roughly 7.8 times as long to buy into that first PO. And yet as you point out older characters effectively see no change in how long it takes them to earn the ISK to buy your new and improved BPO. Sounds like a terrible idea to me so I say
-1 |
Amarisen Gream
Divine Demise Apocalypse Now.
208
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 14:48:14 -
[6] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:Amarisen Gream wrote:far from breaking the bank. if they where merged and had a price of say 500k isk. You can kill a single rat and get 1 million isk. At the other end of that spectrum is the new player killing a single rat and getting a few thousand ISK. So new player want to start small in their industrial adventures now has to work roughly 7.8 times as long to buy into that first PO. And yet as you point out older characters effectively see no change in how long it takes them to earn the ISK to buy your new and improved BPO. Sounds like a terrible idea to me so I say -1
As a new player I could make a million isk, by just mining in a venture for like 5 minutes.
And if they haven't changed it much. the starter missions net you what, 100 million if you do all 6 professions?
"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger
All of his fury and rage.
He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels"
- The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1
DIDE- is open to new members
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Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
139
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Posted - 2016.02.17 15:06:20 -
[7] - Quote
Point 1: Why? As in what purpose does this serve?
As of right now, I can make the 3 sizes at the same time, because I have three different BP's. In your proposal, I would be slowed down quite a bit, unless I wasted oodles of ISK and time making BPC's first.
Point 2: I think this would actually cause more confusion than it might alleviate.
Point 3: Already asked, but I'll echo it: How does this stop/hinder botting?
Gadget
Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1988
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Posted - 2016.02.17 15:48:57 -
[8] - Quote
1 and 2 don't seem to be solving any problem you've been able to articulate. They seem like the product of some sort of second-hand OCD.
It's not your database. How many typeIDs exist are ****-all concern of yours.
3 is revolting, and trivially enables what would effectively be legal botting.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Iain Cariaba
2677
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Posted - 2016.02.17 16:02:13 -
[9] - Quote
Amarisen Gream wrote:Point One: I would like to see the merger of the BPOs when it comes to items/modules which have different sizes (Small, Medium Large.) With an option in the OUTCOME box to pick the size type I am looking for. e.g. Torrent Ammo, ABs, MWDs, etc. Why would I like to see this? First and foremost, fewer items over all in the database. Which means fewer database names/numbers to call when opening the industrial window or market. To me, having a BPO for an item that has three different sizes is sort of redundant. And though it adds some extra thought as players will need to remember to set the OUTCOME. Overall IMO it simplifies the system. It doesn't work that way. The engines on this are not simply scaled up versions of the engines on this. While mechanically similar, they use completely different components, and usually completely different materials.
Secondly, while this suggestion would decrease the number of item entries in the database, it would also increase the complexity of the database, while doing very little to decrease the overall size. The size of a database is not the number of entries, but the data in the various fields of those entries. This data would not magically go away, but would simply migrate into new fields.
Amarisen Gream wrote:Point Two: Merge the modules which have similar function (Sensor Arrays, and Sensor Boosters) and create a new item type that can be placed in ether low or medium slots. With the effect/stats of the module depending on where it is placed. Why? I feel that merging these modules and providing alternate stats/effect depending on the placement of the module could simplify some things. It just to me, seems like a logical choice to help clean up some space. Those items have similar function, not identical function. Again, you don't seem to understand how databases actually work. The data within each entry doesn't go away. You're also overlooking the fact that Sensor Boosters and Signal Amplifiers don't actually perform identically SeBos are active modules, provide more scan res bonus than SigAmps, and can be scripted. SigAmps provide additional targets, have reduced scan res bonus, are passive modules, and cannot be scripted. There's just no way to merge those two modules without a total rewrite of the database, and possibly core coding.
Amarisen Gream wrote:Point Three: I would like to see more API control for industrial players. It would be nice to have the ability to start, stop, complete jobs via third party Apps via the use of the CREST API. To help prevent the hi-jacking or abuse, maybe make it so it requires a SSO log-in. Which then means that if a player shares his account info with another player they are in violation of the End User Agreement/Terms of use stuff. By requiring the SSO, the player is by all sense of the word, logged in. And then through the CREST API, they could start, stop, complete industrial jobs. This would not allow for asset management. or any other function that should be done while logged into the game. So, you want to try to stop bots by giving them even more tools to bot with? How does this even make sense to you? There's already numerous third party applications that have triggered events based on data provided by APIs. The only thing that keeps these third party apps from becoming bots is the inability to effect the game without being logged in. Your suggestion breaks this, thus further enabling bots.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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Iain Cariaba
2677
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Posted - 2016.02.17 16:07:27 -
[10] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:3 is revolting, and trivially enables what would effectively be legal botting. I brought this up to my 63 year old crack head neighbor (yes, I'm serious here). With a whopping 6 months of bash scripting experience, and zero actual EvE experience, he came up with a couple different ways to totally automate industry with OP's idea.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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Amarisen Gream
Divine Demise Apocalypse Now.
208
|
Posted - 2016.02.17 16:45:07 -
[11] - Quote
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:Point 1: Why? As in what purpose does this serve?
As of right now, I can make the 3 sizes at the same time, because I have three different BP's. In your proposal, I would be slowed down quite a bit, unless I wasted oodles of ISK and time making BPC's first.
Point 2: I think this would actually cause more confusion than it might alleviate.
Point 3: Already asked, but I'll echo it: How does this stop/hinder botting?
Gadget
Point 1: Lets see - buy more than one BPO.
Point 2: Not really - low slot = passive. medium = active. You reduce a lot of these has a med slot version that does this, or does that with a script. or a low slot just is just passive.
Point 3: How do you stop bots? The hope is that by using the SSO, and this prevents people from taking all their corp mates production/research slots. Will it prevents bots, it hard to say. If there was a way to limit to only having one SSO login from an application at a time. it would mean the bot has to log on, do the job. and then log off to log into the next.
"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger
All of his fury and rage.
He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels"
- The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1
DIDE- is open to new members
|
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1988
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Posted - 2016.02.17 17:22:33 -
[12] - Quote
Amarisen Gream wrote:
Point 1: Lets see - buy more than one BPO.
Now you're right back where you started as far the industry window list population goes. So you've accomplished nothing except adding an additional click to the job installation task.
Quote: Point 2: Not really - low slot = passive. medium = active. You reduce a lot of these has a med slot version that does this, or does that with a script. or a low slot just is just passive.
I remember you, now. You're the, "I don't know anything about programming, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night and we need a 64 bit client because reasons," person, right?
Quote: Point 3: How do you stop bots? The hope is that by using the SSO, and this prevents people from taking all their corp mates production/research slots.
Is this an actual problem right now? I've never heard of anyone who gave a single **** about this before.
Quote:Will it prevents bots, it hard to say.
No, it isn't hard to say. The whole point of a writable API is to enable automation.
You literally suggested, "Make an interface for botting plz."
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
653
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Posted - 2016.02.17 19:44:14 -
[13] - Quote
And all I want is BPC's to become stackable... |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1990
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Posted - 2016.02.17 19:53:50 -
[14] - Quote
Celthric Kanerian wrote:And all I want is BPC's to become stackable...
Er... every BPC is a unique item with unique stats. That's pretty infeasible. Not impossible, but at best you would only be able to stack them while they're identical (down to the number of runs remaining). I'd feel fairly confident in saying there's no way this would actually be done.
A far more reasonable implementation (which still isn't going to happen) would be to add a BPC combination job type that takes two BPCs with identical ME and TE and combines their runs into a single output BPC.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Geopoly
Republic University Minmatar Republic
6
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Posted - 2016.02.18 04:37:37 -
[15] - Quote
I remember a CEO of an industrial corp wrote a very long post on this topic. Basically if you sum his post, it comes down to: - EVE doesn't have a good way to let mining ops work well to be managed by 1 person; - EVE doesn't have a way to manage collective production, provide security, split income etc; - being an indy corp CEO is extremely frustrating and unrewarding activity. |
Amarisen Gream
Divine Demise Apocalypse Now.
209
|
Posted - 2016.02.18 08:54:53 -
[16] - Quote
I have attempted to make updates to my OP.
As it is improbable to counter every type of issue with any idea presented I have tried my best (which won't be good enough for the die hard trolls)
But I have this to say - New Eden has so much potential for what players can do while in-game and while out. You will always find people who abuse features or exploit errors.
Yet, industry in this game is years and a long way from being what it should be. Does the current version work, why yes it does. But can it be made better, always.
If you are not a fan of change - please go covert to being a Quaker or Amish - as they seem to be stuck in the 1690s (nothing against ether group, I had many Amish neighbors growing up. Generally very nice people.)
"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger
All of his fury and rage.
He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels"
- The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1
DIDE- is open to new members
|
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
2005
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Posted - 2016.02.18 16:20:13 -
[17] - Quote
Amarisen Gream wrote:
If you are not a fan of change - please go covert to being a Quaker or Amish - as they seem to be stuck in the 1690s (nothing against ether group, I had many Amish neighbors growing up. Generally very nice people.)
This is funny, because your understanding of the tech involved is roughly on par with the Amish.
Quote: Now, from my understanding, a website/application that wants to use the SSO has to adhere to CCP and be registered so they can receive the certificate. By making these industrial API calls only work when connected via SSO they add a means to counter bots. If the CCP security team checks these applications from time to time or have players report them, they can see if the appicstion/website provides any "automation" which would be a violation of the SSO agreement, thus killing the certificate for that site/application and preventing bots
Explain how anyone is going to check an application is only accessible at ::1.
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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