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DHB WildCat
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2007.02.04 02:53:00 -
[1]
Picture this.....
You have a 100 man fleet and set up for uber tanking and high damage on a gate ready to fight a smaller 30 man gang that is jumping into them and there large mobile bubble. After 10 minutes of fighting the 100 man fleet retreats with 10 ships left, and the 30 man gang has 25 remaining. This has happened and will continue to happen. So how was it done?
The 30 man gang was a nano/istab gang with a sleipner. This means that ALL ships including battleships were near if not over 10km/sec. Thats 10,000 m/sec kiddies. You cannot counter this with nos, fast tracking turrets, or any other practical means. The only real way I can see to counter it is with at least 30 huggins / rapiers. (Yeah right)
We need to make this realistic devs. I have no problems with inties / cruisers / or hacs going fast, but when you have BS going over 5,00 m/sec and cannot be touched. Then something is very seriously wrong. Anyhow thats how I feel and if you want to be invinsible in this game then go fast, its very easy to do and cheap. Your best set-ups before this patch are insufficiant because some genius in development thought it was a good idea to allow ships to be unkillable 8). My opinion only.
WildCat
And for those of you that will smack me due to my corp tick, it is in this section to let others who dont know already about nano fleets
Sig nerfz0rd. Remember kids, it's 400x120 and less than 24,000 bytes (not kbytes) -Conuion Meow |
Setana Manoro
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2007.02.04 03:00:00 -
[2]
So very true - both the "there is something wrong" and the "will get flamed for it" parts. :) --------------------------------------------------
Always look on the bright side of life. :) |
VulkanXx
Minmatar Cryo Crypt inc. FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.04 03:17:00 -
[3]
Edited by: VulkanXx on 04/02/2007 03:14:30
Originally by: DHB WildCat its very easy to do and cheap.
A GOOD nano-BS setup is NOT cheap. and with the isk people spend on it, I think they deserve the extra survivability that comes along with going fast.
If your 100 man fleet was unable to counter them, perhaps you need to go in better prepared next time. Now i'm sure you've read about all the possible counters, and i'm too lazy to search for them for you if not. Either way i'm not going to post them.
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Idara
Caldari Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.02.04 03:31:00 -
[4]
What the guy above said, nanoBS fits are not cheap, at least not ones that let you do what you're suggesting.
Mine cost me about 250m in modules and rigs plus the BS itself, and I still want to put more into it. ---
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Audri Fisher
Caldari The Keep THE R0CK
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Posted - 2007.02.04 03:51:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Audri Fisher on 04/02/2007 03:47:46 1. kill the sleiphner. 2. 250 mil in fittings and rigs is pretty cheap for a tech II battlship. 3. Obligitory flame becuase the OP is in BE, which is rather famous for using cheap tactics, and got a dose of there own medicine.
Have a nice day.
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DeltaH
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.04 04:31:00 -
[6]
Cost is not an excuse for imbalance. Neither would be skill requirements. You can't say "well this cost X amount so it should be invincible" because sooner or later everyone will have it and then what?
EVE is complex PvP with hundreds of modules and different fits. CCP is very slow to react to flavor of the month setups and they end up being flavor of the year things. They could learn from other PvP developers in MMO.
Paper, Rock, Scissors is good game to emulate. For every Rock (nano-BS) there shoul be a Paper. Right now there is no 1vs1 Paper against a Nano-BS setup. The only counter is a bigger Rock or a blob. This is bad game design.
-DeltaH ---
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Benglada
Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.04 04:33:00 -
[7]
why the hell would the 100 man fleet have no interceptors? ---------------------------
Originally by: Arkanor
0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends.
Sig nerfz0r - maximum allowed siz0r is 24000 bytz0r. - Devil ([email protected]) Sig By Ortos |
Shamis Orzoz
Sniggerdly
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Posted - 2007.02.04 04:38:00 -
[8]
The hundred man fleet must suck.
Also, why not just log out? If people move to fast for you, the devs said it was ok to log out. You're almost guaranteed to live.
Shamis
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HankMurphy
Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror
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Posted - 2007.02.04 05:11:00 -
[9]
Originally by: DeltaH Cost is not an excuse for imbalance. Neither would be skill requirements. You can't say "well this cost X amount so it should be invincible" because sooner or later everyone will have it and then what?
....... -DeltaH
uh... I thought cost was the only excuse for ultimate performance?
Is this not the chief justification for the difficulty er.. near impossiblity behind downing a Titan w/ doomsday weap or Mothership w/ officer smarties? (Well, atleast when they are piloted by someone w/ half a brain in their head)
mind you, only the super super rich get this type of combat prowness.
Cant stand the heat at your own gate camp, do as shamiz said, get the f*** outta dodge till your ready counter or match their strategy.
I love ppl screaming "cheaters" cause someone didn't slow down for the gate camp's ravens. Those godless heathen nanopilots! grrrrr
get off the whole speed thing. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG W/ FAST SHIPS! Nothing, notta, zilch! You just dont understand the real problem at hand. Wanna start addressing imbalance? You know, instead of screaming nerf at one of matar's supposed racial combat strategies? (the others would be the split slot layout and target painters... yeah, thanks CCP!)
NOS is your target.
Its behind alot of 'fishy' combat setups and if fixed would make it quite a bit easier to catch the guys that are flying around your gatecamp at... what did you say they were goin? 22500km/s? all 30 of em?
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VulkanXx
Minmatar Cryo Crypt inc. FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.04 05:14:00 -
[10]
Originally by: DeltaH Cost is not an excuse for imbalance. Neither would be skill requirements. You can't say "well this cost X amount so it should be invincible" because sooner or later everyone will have it and then what?
EVE is complex PvP with hundreds of modules and different fits. CCP is very slow to react to flavor of the month setups and they end up being flavor of the year things. They could learn from other PvP developers in MMO.
Paper, Rock, Scissors is good game to emulate. For every Rock (nano-BS) there shoul be a Paper. Right now there is no 1vs1 Paper against a Nano-BS setup. The only counter is a bigger Rock or a blob. This is bad game design.
-DeltaH
You seem to forget that the nano-BS is NOT invincible, nor a solopwnmobile. In fact it is very easy to neutralize it, but as for catching, well, that's the tough part, but not too hard.
Really, it's the only BS sized ship fitting where PvPing with faction gear is not a total waste of money because it's more likely to survive, sure it may be harder to counter than some.
But honestly, their DPS is not I-win, their only tank is speed, slow them down and they pop fast, and they need cap boosters, not to mention they need to sacrifice lows for speed mods.
They are FAR from invincible, and a very expensive investment.
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EinaruS
Maza Nostra RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.04 19:18:00 -
[11]
it's a valid tactic, people have flamed Burn Eden for their tactics using dampeners and fighting rather safely at range, there are many tactics that can counter nano ships. what i like about the nano ships is that you're normally much closer to the heat of battle and to be honest in my opinion being effective in nano ships against a much larger force takes more skill than the traditional longer ranged battles. I personlly fly a vagabond a lot, what i love about the speed is also that you can many a time engage a few ships at once and still be able to get out if you get knee deep, which i suppose you could call a fix for blobbing...
Anyways, i disagree with you WildCat and i can certainly understand why you wouldn't like the speedy stuff because of how your corp likes to fight for example, but then again BS and cruisers going well over 10k/sec is maybe a bit too much, maybe limiting this kind of speed to frigs and the occasional cruiser might be a way to "fix" but you know it's all subject to different opinions...
unkillable however is a pretty strong word, a huginn can web a 10k/sec ship down to under 200m/sec with dual web, at that speed against a larger force with nanosetups (meaning basically no armor, no tank) it gets instantly popped so i mean 30 huginns and rapiers is maybe a bit of an exaggeration, systematically shutting down the speedy ships one at a time shouldn't be that hard for a decent fleet seeing as the nanoships normally don't have much dps or any kind of a tank.
A finger...especially the middle one, is worth more than any amount of isk |
Morden Nok
Cohortes Vigilum Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.04 19:46:00 -
[12]
Originally by: EinaruS unkillable however is a pretty strong word, a huginn can web a 10k/sec ship down to under 200m/sec with dual web, at that speed against a larger force with nanosetups (meaning basically no armor, no tank) it gets instantly popped so i mean 30 huginns and rapiers is maybe a bit of an exaggeration, systematically shutting down the speedy ships one at a time shouldn't be that hard for a decent fleet seeing as the nanoships normally don't have much dps or any kind of a tank.
That 10 km/s ship will coast 30 - 40 km before stopping.
Besides, you will actually need loads of rapiers/huginns, because Minnie recons are always primaried by nano-ships. And all of them that are within 25 km of nano-ships will be very, very fast out of cap (fit an injector).
You can actually shut down that fleet, just make sure you bring enough 3x T2 damps for each nano-ships (depending on setup and ship bonii, 2 per nano-ship might be enough) + 5 huginns / rapiers. This will force them to disengage, but you won't get too many kills.
Also any group capable of stopping 20 nano-ships is capable of stopping any group of 20 ships that does not have capital support.
Personally I don't understand people who say that nano-ships are balanced. There should be NO I-Win buttons, period. With WCS nerfed, nanoes are the new flavour for those wanting to fight without risk.
The amount of ISK spent on a ship doesn't matter at all, if it did, dreadnoughts should be the ultimate weapon against all smaller ships? Besides I think most nano-ship pilots would just login, logout to save their HG-snake if they packed one, so ISK spent on implants will not count as pod is quite trivial to save under current circumstances...
No matter how much it costs, it should be possible to kill within reasonable boundaries ie the MS / Titan issue.
BTW, all counters for nano-ships require a blob (well, larger gang than the nano-ships have), which makes very hard to understand why people claim that nano-ships are fix for blobbing....
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Ather Ialeas
Amarr Karjala Inc. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.02.04 19:47:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Benglada why the hell would the 100 man fleet have no interceptors?
10km/s bs can run away from a normal interceptor, they don't all go 15km/s. --- Mandatory disclaimer: These are my thoughts, not my corps/alliances. ---
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Litus Arowar
Amarr Obsidian Asylum Pure.
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Posted - 2007.02.04 20:02:00 -
[14]
webbing a nanoBS with multiple inties does basically nothing... unless your top speed is at least as high as the nanoBS's, you won't be able to keep up, as they don't lose velocity very quickly... also, this is assuming you don't get webbed yourself, hit with nos, fast-tracking weapons (your transversal will be fairly low no matter how fast you go, as you're chasing something going 10km/s), or drones
anyway, the point is, for all intents and purposes, there's no reasonable way to stop something going that fast, with that much mass
Albert Anastacia> Like they say, adapt or die. I adapted and now I get to Iwinbutton all over everyones face. |
Mr Peanut
STK Scientific INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.04 20:24:00 -
[15]
It's funny how people that don't fight with or against nano-BS think that there is a practical way to combat them.
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Tomsudy
Minmatar BloodThirsters Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.04 20:40:00 -
[16]
Omg its yet another post about nanos
This is the first time its been really good fun in pvp for a while. And all peope wanna do is nerf it. Why dont you just adapt and quit mining im sure if you have a good 100man fleet you would have had atleast 1 huginn/ rapier or some interceptors. But obviously when you put together a fleet you didnt think about that. The game isnt about, omg how many damage dealers can i put together in one fleet anymore, Adapt to it ffs ________________________________________ THTA |
Thor Xian
Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.04 20:47:00 -
[17]
The 100 man fleet obviously should have brought a Titan. _________________________ ~Thor Xian, Material Defender
"For all your Material Needs, Vertigo One."
Got Alliance?
Contact me ingame for alliance creation services. |
Jennifer Meek
Gallente Planck Bubble Generation Technologies
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Posted - 2007.02.04 20:50:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Thor Xian The 100 man fleet obviously should have brought a Titan.
They should have just brought a few hugins and make a peacemeal out of the nanoships.
Nooo... can't do that, means the pilot of the hugin wont get a kill mail OMG!
---
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Thor Xian
Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.04 21:19:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Jennifer Meek
Originally by: Thor Xian The 100 man fleet obviously should have brought a Titan.
They should have just brought a few hugins and make a peacemeal out of the nanoships.
Nooo... can't do that, means the pilot of the hugin wont get a kill mail OMG!
I'd love to see Huginns that can do that. _________________________ ~Thor Xian, Material Defender
"For all your Material Needs, Vertigo One."
Got Alliance?
Contact me ingame for alliance creation services. |
DiuxDium
Casting Shadows
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Posted - 2007.02.04 21:23:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Jennifer Meek
Originally by: Thor Xian The 100 man fleet obviously should have brought a Titan.
They should have just brought a few hugins and make a peacemeal out of the nanoships.
Nooo... can't do that, means the pilot of the hugin wont get a kill mail OMG!
lol
never fought a nano gang.. --------------- PvP in EvE is not consentual.
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Marcus TheMartin
Gallente Tuxedo.
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Posted - 2007.02.04 21:30:00 -
[21]
Originally by: DeltaH Cost is not an excuse for imbalance. Neither would be skill requirements. You can't say "well this cost X amount so it should be invincible" because sooner or later everyone will have it and then what?
*cough* Mother Ships *cough*
Half Assed Rhymage
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Skrypt
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.02.05 02:58:00 -
[22]
I actually had a discussion about this today and I agree with you 100% Wildcat.
signed. ----------
"I know. I know you can fight. But it's our wits that make us men." ~ Malcom Wallace (Braveheart) |
Garreck
Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.05 03:40:00 -
[23]
Originally by: DHB WildCat The only real way I can see to counter it is with at least 30 huggins / rapiers. (Yeah right)
Precisely. Furthermore, can you imagine the tactical circlejerk of trying to assign one huggin to one nanoship on a fleet scale? Most likely scenario is that pilots miss assignments, 2 or 3 nanobattleships go down, and the rest are free to continue wreaking havoc...picking off/chasing off the huggins and raptors, and then going to work on the fleet.
It's ugly. The whole nano/istab thing right now is ugly. Fast ships are not a problem. Battleships (with the cap, hitpoints, and firepower inherent to battleships) flying faster than interceptors is the problem. 30 interceptors would find great difficulty wiping out an enemy battleship fleet. 30 battleships with the appropriate speed fitting can do so with impunity...they're immune to the various countermeasures that would work against pre-Kali "fast ships."
I'm sure this scene will repeat itself a fair bit, and I kind of hope it does, so as to draw a lot of attention from CCP to the problem.
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Dammar
Amarr Ephorate
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Posted - 2007.02.05 04:36:00 -
[24]
Well dunno if it's been suggested, but other than the obvious 'nerf nanos', maybe they should add 'mobile web bubbles'.
Make em big...and give the person who anchored it a button to engage or disengage the web effect so the gang can manouver during quiet times.
...of course, this would make escaping bubble camps 100% impossible most likely rendering blockade runners obsolete. So yea...nerf that **** already.
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ScreamingLord Sutch
Hand in Mouth
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Posted - 2007.02.05 04:51:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Idara What the guy above said, nanoBS fits are not cheap, at least not ones that let you do what you're suggesting.
Mine cost me about 250m in modules and rigs plus the BS itself, and I still want to put more into it.
Thats no excuse for imbalance.
If the only counter is more numbers or more of the same then its imbalanced.
Sorry that it happens to be your FOTM baby at the mo but it doesnt change the fact...
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Koloch
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.02.05 05:01:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Jennifer Meek
Originally by: Thor Xian The 100 man fleet obviously should have brought a Titan.
They should have just brought a few hugins and make a peacemeal out of the nanoships.
Nooo... can't do that, means the pilot of the hugin wont get a kill mail OMG!
...yes and use your brain to figure out which ships would be primary for the nano squad. That's right the nano fleet puts their drones on them and they either warp out or go pop.
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zeroh
Caldari The Black Rabbits Fatal Persuasion
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Posted - 2007.02.05 05:52:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Koloch
Originally by: Jennifer Meek
Originally by: Thor Xian The 100 man fleet obviously should have brought a Titan.
They should have just brought a few hugins and make a peacemeal out of the nanoships.
Nooo... can't do that, means the pilot of the hugin wont get a kill mail OMG!
...yes and use your brain to figure out which ships would be primary for the nano squad. That's right the nano fleet puts their drones on them and they either warp out or go pop.
use more then 1 huginn omgz
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Stormhold
FinFleet Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.02.05 06:06:00 -
[28]
The speeds battleships (and atleast to some extent battlecruisers.) can achieve are just plain stupid.
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Garreck
Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.05 06:42:00 -
[29]
Originally by: zeroh use more then 1 huginn omgz
Ever try to assign 30 indivdual pilots to 30 individual targets? With the inevitable confusion working for the nanobattleships, the huggin support fleet would be decimated in short order...and then the conventional battleship fleet would be right back where it started.
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tehnomage
Amarr Death Monkey's With Knives Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.05 07:11:00 -
[30]
would you people stop with that idiotic reply that a nano ship is expensive ? who the **** gives a **** about that anyways ? if you buy a ferrari, does that mean that the cops won't catch you ? duh. go put a bullet through. |
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