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Is there need to have so many crap ships?? are Amarr really needed??

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Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.07 02:13:00 - [121] Originally by: Ruciza snip 1) In what mid slots do these tracking distuptors fit? 2) How does one do damage while fitting their high slots full of NOS. 3) How does one cap warfare when cap warfare options are always shorter range than the primary weapon systems on ships[that would be tech 2 scorch for optimal usage, 10km for frigs vs 5.5 for the nos, 22km for cruisers/BC vs 10 for the NOS, and 45km for BS vs 20-25 for the NOS] 4) how does one one cap warfare without a large number of utility high slots[like the minmatar have]? 5) Amarr are not the best tankers. Resistance bonuses are "better" than rep amount bonuses at ship skill 5, but only at ship skill five. In pure sustained tanking ability, [I.E. DPS able to absorb, pure] the rep amount boost always beats a resistance boost. Where a resistance boost comes in handy is in medium duration encounters, and at high skills, medium long encounters. This is due to the amount of normalized hit points regenerated by each different type. This is lower for resist bonused ships, but the have more hit points. Such, if the battle lasts long enough then a rep amount ship will eventualy overcome the HP buffer that the resist boost ship has. In qualitative terms, this means that sometimes a resist bonus is better, and sometimes a rep bonus is better, but that a rep bonus is better sooner than a resist bonus due to the increasing marginal returns on single mod resistance boosts[I.E. 25% resist on 1 mod= 33% more HP and 33% better normalized HP repped, and a 50% resist on 1 mod is 100% more HP and 100% better normalized HP repped, so the first 25% gives 33% and the second 25% gives 66%], which does not occur on the rep amount bonus. 6) To answer the question of versitility. The main part of versitility for Caldari and Gallente is EW. Caldari, especialy with their long range rail options[that are mid range in the grand scale due to BS range] have the ability to trade mid slots off of tracking computers in order to field ECM/damps while still outranging their opponents. For gallente the versitility comes in the form of extra mid slots, and/or tons of utility high slots due to the primary drone damage system. As well, drones offer a large variety of possible roles, from ECM, to damage in three different flavors[EM is not a flavor of drone damage, poor amarran drones], which fit more easily in the large drone bays. For minmatar this comes in cap warfare or missiles in the excess highs, EW in excess mids, Alpha Strike in the long range option. And comes at the expense of a shield or armor tank depending on the setup. Minmatar due to the low cap, CPU, and PG use of their short range weapons have a wider variety of accesable builds available to them. Similarly due to the low cap use and CPU use of their long range weapons are able to fit different options such as an MWD on their long range ships[rough on the PG, but no cap use to worry about, and CPU fitting is easy]. 7) I think the largest irony of tracking disruptors is that due to the qualities of lasers and the benefits of their use, they are harmed most by TDs than any other race.[in the short range for minnnie/gallente optimal doesnt matter as much, while amarr has the lowest tracking and in the long, amarr will have the lowest range and tracking is the highest, which is not valued nearly as much at those distances(and due to the difficulty in hitting things with any long range weapon up close, the difference ends up as 'totaly useless, or even more totaly useless')] ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
kublai TunDraGon	Posted - 2007.02.07 02:20:00 - [122] My primary combat character bosts 28 million Amarr Skill points. Remember kids, if it's good enough for The Kublai, it's too good for the rest of you.
Ruah Piskonit Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.07 02:21:00 - [123] Amarr are terrible. Terrible damage, terrible versitility, terrible at everything. But, when I win with these terrible ships, that makes me a good player. I feel a bit like the now-popular-minmatar FOTM, gimped, but winning with skill. As far as I see it, I hope to be the last person flying Amarr ships while everyone else keeps asking "what is the best pvp ship?" or "is X race better then Y race?" Go ahead, train the new FOTM, you know you need it to win. The Amarr have major problems, these problems are new, but I love them anyway. ----
Danh	Posted - 2007.02.07 02:28:00 - [124] I think this question should be asked here: Under what circumstances are amarrian ships/weapons better at something than any other race?
kublai TunDraGon	Posted - 2007.02.07 02:29:00 - [125] Originally by: Danh I think this question should be asked here: Under what circumstances are amarrian ships/weapons better at something than any other race? Normally when I kill the living daylights out of other racial ships and weapons, in my opinion. That gives amarr a pretty decent % in my book.
xHalcyonx Amarr EmpiresMod	Posted - 2007.02.07 02:30:00 - [126] Originally by: Danh I think this question should be asked here: Under what circumstances are amarrian ships/weapons better at something than any other race? They're better at sucking away the life-force known as cap. They're better at doing negligible damage b/c everyone and their brother is omni-tanked. Look Ma! I'm going Matar!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.07 02:45:00 - [127] Originally by: Danh I think this question should be asked here: Under what circumstances are amarrian ships/weapons better at something than any other race? Mid range, small/medium gang. You need to be able to keep distance[40km or so in a BS] while pelting your enemy with tech 2 pulses and scorch. And by "keep distance" i mean "dont move while someone slows your target down for you" At the sub BS level this doesnt really exist except for beams because 20km is nothing for most non-laser/missile based ships to cross. Though it does work with the Zealot having a 30km range while being decently fast with its AB. The frigates and destroyers make decent short range anti-frig support. Cruisers and BC's arent worth much except for the Harbinger, which should be doing the same thing the Geddon does, but on a smaller and more agile stage. And the prophecy is a decent gang platform[I.E. all tank] The crusader and malediction make fine tacklers. The Absolution can tank and gank at the same time[amasing!] The Abaddon doesnt get called primary because its going to be out of capacitor before the fight ends anyway, which is a plus i suppose. The less number of people you have, the more important short range tactics are, the more number of people you have, the more range matters. Amarr sit right in the middle of that, without the versitilty to switch up for different styles[like Minmatar/Gallente/Caldari can]. Minmatar and Gallente both change between small and large gang warfare very easily and well, and Caldari changes between medium and large gang warfare well[though only rails can work at the large gang scale for the most part, so you have some cross training issues, though nothing that shouldnt be seen in minmatar for maximum effect of their ships] ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Danh	Posted - 2007.02.07 04:25:00 - [128] Originally by: Goumindong Mid range, small/medium gang. You need to be able to keep distance[40km or so in a BS] while pelting your enemy with tech 2 pulses and scorch. And by "keep distance" i mean "dont move while someone slows your target down for you" At the sub BS level this doesnt really exist except for beams because 20km is nothing for most non-laser/missile based ships to cross. Though it does work with the Zealot having a 30km range while being decently fast with its AB. This doesn't really explain to me that amarr are better for these ranges, merely that they're usable at these ranges; which is not the same thing. Quote: The frigates and destroyers make decent short range anti-frig support. Cruisers and BC's arent worth much except for the Harbinger, which should be doing the same thing the Geddon does, but on a smaller and more agile stage. And the prophecy is a decent gang platform[I.E. all tank] Okay, they're decent, but are they the better choice? Quote: The crusader and malediction make fine tacklers. Sure, but are they the best tacklers? That's kind of what I'm asking here. Quote: The Absolution can tank and gank at the same time[amasing!] Amazing \o/ But can it tank and gank better than another races' similar choice? Quote: The Abaddon doesnt get called primary because its going to be out of capacitor before the fight ends anyway, which is a plus i suppose. Being useless a few minutes into (or before the conclusion of) a fleet battle isn't really a plus. Also running completely dry on capacitor could really screw you for warping out too. It'd make more sense to use projectiles, but even then it'd make more sense to use a ship that has bonuses for projectiles... Quote: The less number of people you have, the more important short range tactics are, the more number of people you have, the more range matters. Amarr sit right in the middle of that, without the versitilty to switch up for different styles[like Minmatar/Gallente/Caldari can]. So we are agreeing then that Amarr is relatively useless, yes? Quote: Minmatar and Gallente both change between small and large gang warfare very easily and well, and Caldari changes between medium and large gang warfare well[though only rails can work at the large gang scale for the most part, so you have some cross training issues, though nothing that shouldnt be seen in minmatar for maximum effect of their ships] Right, so where are amarr the better/best choice? Logistics maybe? I haven't really done the math on those yet.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.07 04:51:00 - [129] They are better at mid range combat with medium sized gangs. Beams do the most damage of any long range weapon system, though they have the shortest optimal and best tracking. Pulses have the longest range of any short range weapon system, though they have middle damage[after ships are figured in] and the worst tracking. Between 20-50km Beams on a Harbinger have the best tracking and damage of any weapon other cruisr sized ship. Similarly with Beams on a Zealot or Omen[though the myrmidon is able to compete with sentry drones it wont have as high quality tracking]. This continues in the medium range with frigates. With Frigates, Amarran frigates are able to outrange and out-damage all other but caldari frigates with pulses and are able to nearly outrange their rockets. While able to do relativly large amounts of DPS due to the low slot advantage[which actualy means something on the frigate level]. On the battleship level, with sentry drones, the Armageddon can bring near 950 DPS against a single target within 45km. That is more damage than any other single ship can bring to bear within that range, by far[a falloff rigged Maelstrom gets close, and with better damage types, but its much much more expensive in a number of ways] They are good at medium ranged combat in small to medium sized gangs[where medium ranged combat is best]. Medium range combat does not happen often outside of those parameters, making it hard to adapt to fleet combat[now you need range, which you dont have, when range is king] and small group combat[where a range advantage is hard to take advantage of due to the nessesity to get close to tackle] ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.02.07 05:27:00 - [130] Originally by: Ruah Piskonit Amarr are terrible. Terrible damage, terrible versitility, terrible at everything. But, when I win with these terrible ships, that makes me a good player. I feel a bit like the now-popular-minmatar FOTM, gimped, but winning with skill. As far as I see it, I hope to be the last person flying Amarr ships while everyone else keeps asking "what is the best pvp ship?" or "is X race better then Y race?" Go ahead, train the new FOTM, you know you need it to win. The Amarr have major problems, these problems are new, but I love them anyway. Ruah you are my hero. Amarr suck, but we still love our golden wangs that fly around and enslave the lesser races. This post makes me want to join PIE. Nyxus The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships.

Shugo Kazuma	Posted - 2007.02.07 05:28:00 - [131] Edited by: Shugo Kazuma on 07/02/2007 05:25:13 Anyone else think it would add a bit to the amarr race to have their gun bonus's apply to whole weapons classes rather than specific sizes? Like instead of 5% damage increase to [size] energy turret per level of amarr [Ship Class], something like 5% damage increase to all energy turrets per level of amarr [ship class]. Since the amarr can't really have flexibility in things like damage types, why not give them some flexibility in weapons sizes. That way you could fit for example, cruiser guns on a BS, and still get your damage bonus applied. While the amarr would still likely need some reworking, I don't think it's a design aspect that's been explored by any other race and would make for more interesting styles than doing something stupid like trying to add in exploding lasers.
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.07 05:57:00 - [132] Edited by: j0sephine on 07/02/2007 05:57:09 "The closer you get the better you are able to mitigate damage by the terrible tracking on pulses (..)" ... okay, the whole "woe is Amarr" exaggeration stopped to be funny at this point. This is base, normalized tracking values for large turrets in EVE: (normalized being distance which can be covered by turret at its optimal range while rotating at full tracking speed, in other words roughly tangent(tracking) * optimal) * mega pulse II: 907 m * mega beam II: 720 m * 425 mm railgun II: 576 m (720 m with Caldari optimal bonus) * 1400 mm artillery II: 432 m * neutron blaster cannon II: 309 m (387 m with Gallente tracking bonus) * 800 mm repeating artillery II: 206 m iow, the "terrible tracking on pulses" is actually the highest effective tracking available for turret weapon in this game. To say they are "terribly tracking" because the have harder time hitting ship humping your hull than a weapon designed specifically for this task and nothing but... that's misleading, at best --;; just for **** and giggles, in order to give the autocannons the same tracking potential autopulses enjoy, the 'cannons would have to be given ~21 km base optimal, rather than current 4.8 km. Imagine how well that idea would go with the hooded crowd. Seriously, never though would see Amarr complain about tracking of their turrets, out of all things.
Nifel Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.07 06:26:00 - [133] Edited by: Nifel on 07/02/2007 06:22:42 Originally by: j0sephine Seriously, never though would see Amarr complain about tracking of their turrets, out of all things. It all started with the 100+ page amarr whine thread. You kinda missed it j0. Some true classics in there. Lots of the ** sprouted in there has infected a lot of the younger players and a lot of the older players has stopped caring to the point of trying to explain ^^. "When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: Sama**
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2007.02.07 06:45:00 - [134] Hehe... people whining about omnitanks make me laugh. Of COURSE omni tanks make high EM resists on armor... because they are already high to begin with. Its a freaking armor tank! What the hell do you expect? Omni tanks reduce damage by just as much for lasers as they do for everything else. You don't see minmatar whining about invuln IIs which are better than eanm IIs, and shields have more kinetic resist than armor does of thermal, so shield tanks resist the traditional projectile ammo better than armor tanks resist laser fire. If they make lasers do more thermal damage, people are just going to switch an eanm II for a thermal hardener to compensate, making you no better off. People put resistances to lasers because lasers are ******* painful. I also like the irony of amarr pilots complaining about armor tanks, which is what they specialize in... Anyway... amarr is fine, in my opinion. - It's great being Minmatar, ain't it?
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2007.02.07 07:23:00 - [135] Originally by: Arctur Septim I am using only Amarr ships and Amarr guns Pew Pew Playing Caldari-Online as a Amarr specced is PURE Hardcore
Litus Arowar Amarr Obsidian Asylum Pure.	Posted - 2007.02.07 07:34:00 - [136] Originally by: j0sephine Edited by: j0sephine on 07/02/2007 05:57:09 "The closer you get the better you are able to mitigate damage by the terrible tracking on pulses (..)" ... okay, the whole "woe is Amarr" exaggeration stopped to be funny at this point. This is base, normalized tracking values for large turrets in EVE: (normalized being distance which can be covered by turret at its optimal range while rotating at full tracking speed, in other words roughly tangent(tracking) * optimal) * mega pulse II: 907 m * mega beam II: 720 m * 425 mm railgun II: 576 m (720 m with Caldari optimal bonus) * 1400 mm artillery II: 432 m * neutron blaster cannon II: 309 m (387 m with Gallente tracking bonus) * 800 mm repeating artillery II: 206 m iow, the "terrible tracking on pulses" is actually the highest effective tracking available for turret weapon in this game. To say they are "terribly tracking" because the have harder time hitting ship humping your hull than a weapon designed specifically for this task and nothing but... that's misleading, at best --;; just for **** and giggles, in order to give the autocannons the same tracking potential autopulses enjoy, the 'cannons would have to be given ~21 km base optimal, rather than current 4.8 km. Imagine how well that idea would go with the hooded crowd. Seriously, never though would see Amarr complain about tracking of their turrets, out of all things. misleading post, as it doesn't adress the original quote... it's easier to get under amarr guns than any other guns... this is true, yet you seem to disagree with it with your tone as for tracking, I doubt you'll see many people complaining about pulse tracking with scorch at optimal, but that's about it oh and when doing calculations like this, why not go optimal + falloff/2 or something similar? cause counting blasters, rails, and arties as only having optimal is kinda ludicrous... in fact, that'd be a great boost to amarr, just get rid of all falloff... we don't have it anyway! Albert Anastacia> Like they say, adapt or die. I adapted and now I get to Iwinbutton all over everyones face.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.07 08:45:00 - [137] Originally by: j0sephine Disinformation You do realize that tracking is an absoulte right? That when two ships are firing at each other, they cannot simultainiously be firing from two different distances. Ships do not travel the speed of light(OLOL warp drives!), they cannot be in two places at once, a line drawn between them cannot have two seperate lengths. That is all it takes to understand why amarr tracking is worse. Because if a minmatar is shooting at an amarran at the minmatars weapons optimal, the range you would be calculating optimal from, for the amarran, would be 5km. That 907m would, in the real world, be 128.75 Because its only in fantasy land can two ships be two different distances apart. If the Minmatar were shooting at the Amarrans optimal, its tracking would be 1451.2 So until you give me a ship that can simultainiously be at my optimal and your optimal i am going to keep calling this bull out. So lets do some basic math here. Minmatar Tracking at Amarr Optimal = 1451.2 Amarr Tracking at Amarr Optimal = 907 Minmatar Tracking at Minmatar Optiaml = 206m Amarr Tracking at Minmatar Optimal = 128.75 Now. Since 1451.2 > 907 & 206 > 238.75 Some simple substitution and we get Minmatar Tracking at Amarr Optimal > Amarr Tracking at Amarr Optimal & Minmatar Tracking at Minmatar Optiaml > Amarr Tracking at Minmatar Optimal In fact, what does this tell us? it means that a minmatar battleship ship that gets close to an armageddon only needs to move 128m/s in order to mitigate damage and if it also moves less than 206m/s it does full damage. AND, if it knows how much you have to beat someones tracking for it to do ZERO damage, then it can reduce the geddon to 0 DPS! Taken a bit farther, if it gets webbed[not that many laser ships fit webs due to them only really effective in gangs with tacklers, but that is another issue], and moves in by half the distance it only has to beat 68m/s and stay under 100 m/s! and if it gets really really really close, at half that again, it only needs to move 30m/s and stay under 50m/s. Seriously, never thought I would see a Caldari who doesnt understand how tracking works, or how to mitigate damage against turret ships. Oh wait... ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
General Andraax Amarr Twinks Inc. Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2007.02.07 09:21:00 - [138] Amarr Still have the best looking ships in the game, That gotta count for somehting! I meen c'mon look at the Geddon/Abaddon and compare that to say Dominix, any Matar ship or any Caldari ships.. And be honest when you think about a space game with space ships and warfare don't you think lasers, not some silly machinegun or Missile Launcher? To be honest beeing the oldest of the races they should be shield tanks but that's about it... Personaly I fly Amarr and Gallante ships, depending on activity. I love my amarr ships, and fly them as much as possible (granted it been less lately sicne my drone skills are starting to outshine my gunnery). All in all I love the amarr as a race and thier design, I would love to see a review of the amarr ship lineup but tis not realy nessesary. As it is today we have 4 races, 3 are Armor tanks and 1 Shield take, shift the balance, rebuild amarr into shield tanks fitting for old advanced races and re distribute ship slots accordingly and you will see a race very much fit for active duty in both PVP and PVE. And as a slight bonus we then have more than one Shield tanking race :)
Lubomir Penev Gallente Dark Nexxus	Posted - 2007.02.07 12:54:00 - [139] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 06/02/2007 21:05:41 Originally by: Lubomir Penev Edited by: Lubomir Penev on 06/02/2007 14:55:12 Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 04/02/2007 21:20:53 Quote: Pretty sure it outdps's the vagabond too, so yes, it gets out dps'd by all other hacs except...you know, 2/3 of the other race's. Both the Muninn and the Vagabond outdamage the Zealot. Easily. 425 autocannon II= 90% of HP II. What about taking into account that autocannons are used deep in falloff and Pulse at their optimal? And that 425 are actually pretty hard to fit in usual setups so people use 220mm? Doesn't that make it than in practice autocannons have like 60% of the DPS of heavy pulse? Your DPS figures with ships staying motionless at 500m mean nothing to real PvP. Why would an autocannon ship NOT get as close to a pulse ship as possible? The closer you get the better you are able to mitigate damage by the terrible tracking on pulses and the more damage you are able to do with your autocannons. Unless it didnt have a tank of course. The autocannon in falloff only really matters when fighting blasters, at which point no one really factors in blaster damage in falloff[and they dont against lasers either] as some sort of "penalty" to be factored into DPS. You more often see autocannons used at 12-15km deep in falloff than at their optimal. Their optimal is in nos and web range and they don't like nos too much not having much cap to begin with and often don't pack a web (most of the shield tanking setups) so they cannot come at optimal as they will find themselves webbed without being able to return the favor. Autocannon used at optimal is more the exception than the common usage, mostly it will happen with matari ships taking on Caldari missile boat and... Amarr ships using autocannons. Hence my point than comparing dps of pulse and autocannons both at their optimal doesn't have much to do with the game as it is played.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.07 13:36:00 - [140] Originally by: Lubomir Penev You more often see autocannons used at 12-15km deep in falloff than at their optimal. Their optimal is in nos and web range and they don't like nos too much not having much cap to begin with and often don't pack a web (most of the shield tanking setups) so they cannot come at optimal as they will find themselves webbed without being able to return the favor. Autocannon used at optimal is more the exception than the common usage, mostly it will happen with matari ships taking on Caldari missile boat and... Amarr ships using autocannons. Hence my point than comparing dps of pulse and autocannons both at their optimal doesn't have much to do with the game as it is played. It does when comparing the DPS of an autocannon ship versus the DPS of a pulse ship. Because only a fool would stick around in the wheel house of an opponents ship in order to get blasted. If you fly against amarr like you fly against a gallente, you deserve to lose and you deserve to do less damage. Autocannons have the choice to get close the the slow and lumbering amarr and far away from the not quite so slow and lumbering Gallente. If a minmatar ship flies right up to the NOS range of a NOS boat, then they deserve to get NOS'd. It should be noted that minmatar are much more likly to be able to return the web favor than amarr are. This is especialy pertinent when comparing lasers and pulses. Minmatar, who have the most free high slots for NOS[besides a gallente drone boat], who have the second largest drone bays[behind gallente], who have the best tracking and are tied for the most mid slots, should not be afraid of being unable to return the web favor against an amarran ship[as this increases their tracking too, and that that point, up close, they have the DPS advantage]. They should be afraid of getting webed down by blaster boats. Fortounatly, amarran boats arent blasterboats[and even as blaster boats wont have the DPS advantage over a similar minmatar ship with autocannons] Getting close is how you deal with amarran ships, ships that can get close, should not be penalized in a comparison becuase their pilots choose not to. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"

kill0rbunny Caldari Chimera Intelligence Agency	Posted - 2007.02.07 14:06:00 - [141] Amarrs main damage type is EM Damage, right? People complain 80% of Eve is flying Caldari Ships, true? Biggest weakness of Caldari Ships is EM Damage, isn't it? If so, Amarr are damn uber, nerf em. - I got a portrait now, wheeeee! \o/
Wulfgard Minmatar Lynx Frontier Inc. Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.07 14:33:00 - [142] Originally by: kill0rbunny Amarrs main damage type is EM Damage, right? People complain 80% of Eve is flying Caldari Ships, true? Biggest weakness of Caldari Ships is EM Damage, isn't it? If so, Amarr are damn uber, nerf em. Hmm... not quite so Most people ratting in belts, running missions will fly caldari ships (ie Ravens/Drake/cerebus, fire and forget). Any decent pvpers will go for the Gallentes (fotm, actually more like the whole last 2 years:p) or minmatars. Most pvp fights last, regardless of the HP increased, less than a 60sec. You want instant dmg, you want speed to get on the kill mail Caldaris + missiles provide none (exception of Eagle). By the way, I am not advocating for a caldari buff, far from it Now, to go back on topic, having your main weaponry only doing EM and Thermal isn't what I call uber...
Almarez	Posted - 2007.02.07 15:36:00 - [143] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Danh I think this question should be asked here: Under what circumstances are amarrian ships/weapons better at something than any other race? Mid range, small/medium gang. You need to be able to keep distance[40km or so in a BS] while pelting your enemy with tech 2 pulses and scorch. And by "keep distance" i mean "dont move while someone slows your target down for you" At the sub BS level this doesnt really exist except for beams because 20km is nothing for most non-laser/missile based ships to cross. Though it does work with the Zealot having a 30km range while being decently fast with its AB. The frigates and destroyers make decent short range anti-frig support. Cruisers and BC's arent worth much except for the Harbinger, which should be doing the same thing the Geddon does, but on a smaller and more agile stage. And the prophecy is a decent gang platform[I.E. all tank] The crusader and malediction make fine tacklers. The Absolution can tank and gank at the same time[amasing!] The Abaddon doesnt get called primary because its going to be out of capacitor before the fight ends anyway, which is a plus i suppose. The less number of people you have, the more important short range tactics are, the more number of people you have, the more range matters. Amarr sit right in the middle of that, without the versitilty to switch up for different styles[like Minmatar/Gallente/Caldari can]. Minmatar and Gallente both change between small and large gang warfare very easily and well, and Caldari changes between medium and large gang warfare well[though only rails can work at the large gang scale for the most part, so you have some cross training issues, though nothing that shouldnt be seen in minmatar for maximum effect of their ships] How do you keep the mid range with low base speed and no versatility (i.e. few med slots)
Lubomir Penev Gallente Dark Nexxus	Posted - 2007.02.07 16:02:00 - [144] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Lubomir Penev Hence my point than comparing dps of pulse and autocannons both at their optimal doesn't have much to do with the game as it is played. It does when comparing the DPS of an autocannon ship versus the DPS of a pulse ship. Because only a fool would stick around in the wheel house of an opponents ship in order to get blasted. May I refer you to this post from someone who knows what he is talking about... He says that falloff extending rigs are "superawesome" for autocannons. Surely that means the common pattern of usage is not to use them at optimal. Oh and that someone is you. How come you can have radically different discourse in two different ongoing threads? Maybe you just whine to get an unwarranted boost out of self interrest and not because you're after game balance.
Skraeling Shortbus Caldari Gallente Federal Bank Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.07 16:23:00 - [145] Originally by: Shardrael when your fighting ships that have 70+ resist across the board em/therm dmg makes almost no difference to anything else What you think people dont tank kinetic thermal either? OMG almost like hybrid ammo damage right there...
Asurix Caldari StoneDogS The Imperial Order	Posted - 2007.02.07 16:43:00 - [146] if you remove amarr plz lemme redistribute my SP being amarr specced n all
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.07 18:33:00 - [147] Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Lubomir Penev Hence my point than comparing dps of pulse and autocannons both at their optimal doesn't have much to do with the game as it is played. It does when comparing the DPS of an autocannon ship versus the DPS of a pulse ship. Because only a fool would stick around in the wheel house of an opponents ship in order to get blasted. May I refer you to this post from someone who knows what he is talking about... He says that falloff extending rigs are "superawesome" for autocannons. Surely that means the common pattern of usage is not to use them at optimal. Oh and that someone is you. How come you can have radically different discourse in two different ongoing threads? Maybe you just whine to get an unwarranted boost out of self interrest and not because you're after game balance. You misunderstand the ability to use a ship in a non-standard way[I.E. the unmoving Maelstrom] with the nessesity to use a weapon system in a similar way. The Maelstrom with falloff rigs works because you can get insane amount of falloff on your guns, which allows you to hit, with minimal damage reduction, any enemies within 40-50km of you, with great tracking, while sporting an awesome tank. Falloff rigs increase the operating range of AC's, which means that against blasters, they are able to extend their range advantage and turn that into a larger damage advantage. Versus lasers, on a fast ship, it means little except to reduce the amount of damage advantage the laser ship gains from closing distance. On a slow ship, such as the maelstrom, it allows you to use autocannons in the place of artillery. Gaining a DPS advantage in the short range while losing nearly no DPS advantage in the long range and while gaining a tracking advantage. So yea, they are superawesome, in the same way that optimal enhancing rigs would be super-awesome if there were no way to increase optimal in the game besides them, and pulse lasers had low powergrid use so that they could take advantage of said rig. Fighting amarran ships is not the only thing to do in the game, and falloff rigs give minmatar ships advantages versus minmatar, gallente, and to a lesser extent, Amarr and Caldari. I suppose if you only think that doing good against amarr and caldari is the only important thing, then for ships other than the maelstrom[which is too slow to support a viable autocannon platform, hence the ridiculous PG], falloff rigs would be a supoptimal choice behind speed rigs. Speed rigs however, are also "superawesome" ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.07 18:55:00 - [148] Edited by: Goumindong on 07/02/2007 18:55:37 Originally by: Almarez How do you keep the mid range with low base speed and no versatility (i.e. few med slots) You dont, you better hope your pew advantage in the long range is enough to get over your pew disadvantage in the short range. This is best for small/mid sized gangs because small to mid size gangs typically engage under 100km, and the more damage you can get on a target faster, the quicker they die. There is a range/damage dynamic in the game which can basically be stated as "the longer a battle is, the more important short range weaponry is". This happens because short range weaponry has a higher DPS but requires a set amount of time [closing time] before that higher DPS may be brought to bear. If that time is 10 seconds, and an opposing group has enough firepower to bring you down in 10 seconds, then short range weapons are not effective at all. With medium range weapons in a medium sized gang, a group is able to deal enough damage to bring targets down quickly before the majority of them can bring their guns to bear, as well as change targets more easily without losing damage due to travel time. Of course, the larger a gang gets, the more important range becomes again, and sniping setups, which do even less DPS, become better, because the difference between 20,000 DPS in a gang and 40,000 DPS in a gang is about one second of a target living. And when ships only last for one or two seconds, being able to bring the guns to bear, now, at any range, is what is important.[This is why the rokh is so good] So a gang set for long range will be at less of a disadvantage against a gang set for short range than a gang set for short range will be against a gang set for long range, even if the short range gang is able to jump in on the long range gang[though they would still have an advantage, it would not be as large]. Since amarr are the king of the medium range damage, its the small to medium sized groups where the ability to bring dps on target, now, and not 15 seconds from now, is the most important, that they shine. Originally by: Skraeling Shortbus Originally by: Shardrael when your fighting ships that have 70+ resist across the board em/therm dmg makes almost no difference to anything else What you think people dont tank kinetic thermal either? OMG almost like hybrid ammo damage right there... Not exclusivily, at least not typically. The majority of laser damage is EM[scorch is the best example, 90%+ EM], and when fitting an omni-tank[or unhardened], a practice done because you lose nearly no resists over a tri-hardened tank, while plugging what would be a resistance hole, you will do 87.5% more kinetic damage against a target when shooting kinetic damage at them, and 62.5% more damage when shooting thermal at them.(125% more ex damage will be done)[ED: this ratio is worse relativly for EM when shooting against minmatar, better relativly for EM when Em/ex when shooting against amarr, better relativly for EM with EM/kin when shooting againt gallente, and better relativly for EM with EM/therm when shooting against caldari(Armor only on all), however none will ever get near positive, and the worse relation created when shooting against minmatar is more severe than any of the rest] Lasers have a thermal component, but it is relativly small. Overall, accounting for shield resistances, armor resistances, and typical hardening type, Kin/Thermal is probably the strongest damage type that you can bring to the table. The exception is that more t2 ships are pre-hardened versus kin and thermal[hybrids being racial for two races and kin being a component of minmatar racial damage and therm being a component of amarr racial damage] than againt ex/kin or em/therm. Though that certianly isnt a bad trade off. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
korrey Taurus Inc	Posted - 2007.02.07 19:35:00 - [149] Originally by: kill0rbunny Amarrs main damage type is EM Damage, right? People complain 80% of Eve is flying Caldari Ships, true? Biggest weakness of Caldari Ships is EM Damage, isn't it? If so, Amarr are damn uber, nerf em. Thats why Amarr suck against Caldari. If EM were the second best resistance, it would help Amarr in fighting them. How? Let me explain. Every good pvp'er knows he needs to cover up their lowest and generally second lowest resistance holes. Aka EM. So EM would be the lowest resistance, but add 2x EM hardener II's and an Invul II with possibly a DCU in the lows, you get EM being the highest or close to it. (Or the setup could be 1 EM hardener and 2 Invuln fields. But you still get around the same thing.) ----------- 24.01.06 Small patch that addresses some minor balancing issues 1) All minmatar pilots have been deleted
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.07 21:15:00 - [150] "You do realize that tracking is an absoulte right?" Yes; just like i hope you realize the same angle means different distances at different ranges. And that ships move in "distance per second" rather than in absolutes. Which overall results in the lasers having potential to cover the largest distance / second at their optimal range, compared to other turrets... within their given area of application Meaning, ship at the distance matching the optimal of pulses must be able to move much faster in order to avoid getting hit, than the same ship would have to move when being tracked by any other turret at that turret optimal. Meaning, while short range turrets like autocannons and blasters are given ability to hit more effectively targets at extremely close ranges, this ability doesn't extend far enough to make their area of application anywhere close to that of pulse lasers. Or to put it simpler since you like basic math: * a ship being shot with pulses at pulses' optimal needs to move at 900+ m/sec to throw tracking off * a ship being shot with autocannons at autocannon optimal only needs to move at 200+ m/sec to mess up the tracking. At 2x the optimal, it needs to move at ~400 m/sec. Only at 4x the optimal range (~20 km) it's forced to get up to speeds approaching these enforced by tracking of the pulse lasers... except at that point with current stats ~50% of damage is lost due to shooting into falloff. As opposed to lasers being able to deal full damage to such fast target, as long as you can keep them within your optimal. And while yes, autocannon with pulse laser optimal would require ships to move even faster than the pulses do, in order to avoid damage... the point is, autocannons are given the optimal nowhere near that, or even near one that could potentially require target to move as fast, as currently the pulses can. There is quite a bit more to tracking than just getting close enough to Amarr ship to make the pilot cry on forums how horrible tracking their pulses have. And that "bit more" shouldn't be ignored.

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