Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Threm
Heavy Rains Public-Enemy
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.21 10:37:05 -
[1] - Quote
Dear all,
it is intended to allow the watchlist feature only if both player watchlist each other: http://imgur.com/7frnn2x
(1) "The watchlist fives free and perfect information with no risk"
That is true but also for a number of other features, such like: - Reaction to convo or fleet invite which tells if he is in an other fleet, offline or not - Biography and Corp information - possible abilities, positions, locations informations - Locater agents - killboard history - Ship Scanner with passive targeter - and most of it the well known LOCAL Chat: We always know who is in my system, without any risk.
The risk vs. reward approach is not a reasonable argument as you would have consequently to remove all information that one can pull without the opponent knowing it.
(2) "No counter gameplay, except not logging in"
That is not correct as you can: - watchlist your opponent ! - stay logged in to disguise the active times
Consequences of your intended changes: - no tactical tracking of the opponents, either of 0.0 supercapital pilots or your personal opponent, no matter whether you are the hunter or the prey - no chance for determining login traps - no chance to determine alts - while hunting one can not determine if the opponent is lost or logged off, which lead to very frustating gameplay
Alternatives: - for few or an single opponent they are convoed or fleet invited to determined if they are offline - killboard statistics allow indentify region and time of activity
Summary: This is a relevant feature in Eve. Your argument if applied correctly is basically removing anything that is single sided or not possible to counter. Direct watchlist will be replaced by other measures which causes only additional efforts which is very frustating. Thus, so dont do this!
Regards, Threm
|
trottel martin
HotzenPlotzGang Public-Enemy
5
|
Posted - 2016.02.21 10:56:25 -
[2] - Quote
he is totally right !!
its one of the measures in the past that are ruining this game .....
thx cccp |
Aerich e'Kieron
Peace.Keepers
92
|
Posted - 2016.02.21 11:20:04 -
[3] - Quote
Finally, been waiting for this for a long time. Well done CCP, go forward with these changes, you have my +1 |
Tora Bushido
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
3226
|
Posted - 2016.02.21 11:28:24 -
[4] - Quote
For those care bears who now think AWESOME ..... you're wrong. Let me tell you what will happen if they implement this. It means I can no longer focus my wars as a mercenary on specific targets. Guess what I will do next.... exactly, War dec twice as many alliances/corps as I do now.
Want less wars ? Dont nerf but buff the watch lists, so we need less wars to operate.
DELETE THE WEAK, ADAPT OR DIE !
Meta Gaming Level VII, Psycho Warfare Level X, Smack Talk Level VII.
TORA BUSHIDO FOR CSM XI
|
Morrigan LeSante
Black Omega Security The OSS
1244
|
Posted - 2016.02.21 11:30:46 -
[5] - Quote
EVE Players 2016:
Free, accurate intel which increases risk: Heresy, must be patch out immediately, this is a disgrace, people should make an effort.
Free, accurate intel which decreasesrisk: Hallowed, sacrosanct, must be protected at all costs, cannot tolerate any suggestion of its removal.
The level of hate which attacked the watch list is matched only by the level of screaming defence about the "need" for local. Does it hurt you people being so hypocritical? |
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Phoenix Company Alliance
254
|
Posted - 2016.02.21 12:00:34 -
[6] - Quote
you know what this really means? with all the upcomming changes, theres likely to be more ratting supers for you to kill... they will no longer be trackable by watch list alone... |
Morrigan LeSante
Black Omega Security The OSS
1244
|
Posted - 2016.02.21 12:02:53 -
[7] - Quote
Yes, people will totally do that
If you think this will increase content I have a bridge to sell you. |
Threm
Heavy Rains Public-Enemy
0
|
Posted - 2016.02.21 12:31:31 -
[8] - Quote
A few guys here miss the point:
You cant hardly patch out all no-risk features as a few are invetiable game relevant. Otherwise I give a nice proposal that meets exactly the same arguments as now used for watch list:
(1) The LOCAL chat shall only show people hat have chatted (like wormhole) and/or were seen in the overview (similar how killrights have been in the earlier days).
Reasons: - Risk vs. reward: without undocking and seeing possible opponents you dont have any intel. - No counter: You cant disguise yourself in local or avoid beeing shown to others
It matches exactly the same argumentation. I would love to see how this welcomed.
(2) Risk vs. reward There is no chance to replace watchlist by something that has risk but gives the same results. If by anything at all, it is EFFORT and not risk by what it is replaced. Give a compensation by risk and we are fine with that.
And after all: of course we (in terms of our playground) will adopt to it if it comes. We will suffer in one direction but benefit in other direction, just as Thora is writing.
I only point out that the argumentation is opportunisticly.
|
Threm
Heavy Rains Public-Enemy
1
|
Posted - 2016.02.21 13:05:29 -
[9] - Quote
I got response from some wormhole guys that told me, that watchlist is the only and valued measure if you have enemy scouts in the system. As well as to have the chance to check your wormhole neighbours. |
Khan Wrenth
Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation
451
|
Posted - 2016.02.21 13:11:52 -
[10] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:EVE Players 2016:
Free, accurate intel which increases risk: Heresy, must be patch out immediately, this is a disgrace, people should make an effort.
Free, accurate intel which decreases risk: Hallowed, sacrosanct, must be protected at all costs, cannot tolerate any suggestion of its removal.
The level of hate which attacked the watch list is matched only by the level of screaming defence about the "need" for local. Does it hurt you people being so hypocritical?
I've long said get rid of both. For whatever it may be worth to you, I wanted the watch list nerfed slightly but still retained in the game because it does serve as a valuable tool to use hunting enemies. When everything in the game has play and counterplay, I'll be happy.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
|
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
1594
|
Posted - 2016.02.21 15:39:44 -
[11] - Quote
Not to mention is one of the only defensive tools avaliable to small hs groups
Citadel worm hole tax
|
Lugh Crow-Slave
1594
|
Posted - 2016.02.21 15:41:40 -
[12] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:EVE Players 2016:
Free, accurate intel which increases risk: Heresy, must be patch out immediately, this is a disgrace, people should make an effort.
Free, accurate intel which decreases risk: Hallowed, sacrosanct, must be protected at all costs, cannot tolerate any suggestion of its removal.
The level of hate which attacked the watch list is matched only by the level of screaming defence about the "need" for local. Does it hurt you people being so hypocritical?
What about all the powwow that want to get rid of local also watch lists can both add or decrees risk based on who is using it so I'm lost on your point
Citadel worm hole tax
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
16284
|
Posted - 2016.02.21 15:50:29 -
[13] - Quote
Just watch, they won't even bother fixing locator agents to be remotely useful either.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
17441
|
Posted - 2016.02.21 15:51:29 -
[14] - Quote
Compromise:
You can only add someone to your personal/corp/alliance watchlist if you have their corpse. |
Morrigan LeSante
Black Omega Security The OSS
1250
|
Posted - 2016.02.21 15:52:42 -
[15] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:EVE Players 2016:
Free, accurate intel which increases risk: Heresy, must be patch out immediately, this is a disgrace, people should make an effort.
Free, accurate intel which decreases risk: Hallowed, sacrosanct, must be protected at all costs, cannot tolerate any suggestion of its removal.
The level of hate which attacked the watch list is matched only by the level of screaming defence about the "need" for local. Does it hurt you people being so hypocritical? What about all the powwow that want to get rid of local also watch lists can both add or decrees risk based on who is using it so I'm lost on your point
It's more the general air, both here and the clearly more official feedback channel: reddit.
It's extremely disappointing both of these are not tackled at once, yet again it's all about MORE safety. Because let's face it, the super tears were starting to threaten the levees. Gotta keep chipping away at that risk, or so it would seem. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1595
|
Posted - 2016.02.21 16:07:06 -
[16] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:EVE Players 2016:
Free, accurate intel which increases risk: Heresy, must be patch out immediately, this is a disgrace, people should make an effort.
Free, accurate intel which decreases risk: Hallowed, sacrosanct, must be protected at all costs, cannot tolerate any suggestion of its removal.
The level of hate which attacked the watch list is matched only by the level of screaming defence about the "need" for local. Does it hurt you people being so hypocritical? What about all the powwow that want to get rid of local also watch lists can both add or decrees risk based on who is using it so I'm lost on your point It's more the general air, both here and the clearly more official feedback channel: reddit. It's extremely disappointing both of these are not tackled at once, yet again it's all about MORE safety. Because let's face it, the super tears were starting to threaten the levees. Gotta keep chipping away at that risk, or so it would seem.
I guess being able to dock wasn't enough
Citadel worm hole tax
|
Morrigan LeSante
Black Omega Security The OSS
1251
|
Posted - 2016.02.21 16:30:01 -
[17] - Quote
Nope and not even any of the CSM on reddit can muster an argument beyond "it's broken, knowing someone, is online somewhere in eve is totally OP because. Just because NOW STOP ASKING"
It's utterly pathetic, zero acknowledgement that it's a mere fraction of the picture. But gotta keep them super guys happy.
As Rocket_X said in the cap groups - this is a single shard MMO - I should be able to know that someone has 'opted out' of being in my universe. That is reasonable. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1597
|
Posted - 2016.02.21 16:38:15 -
[18] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Nope and not even any of the CSM on reddit can muster an argument beyond "it's broken, knowing someone, is online somewhere in eve is totally OP because. Just because NOW STOP ASKING"
It's utterly pathetic, zero acknowledgement that it's a mere fraction of the picture. But gotta keep them super guys happy.
As Rocket_X said in the cap groups - this is a single shard MMO - I should be able to know that someone has 'opted out' of being in my universe. That is reasonable.
I just wish they would use there own forums more than reddit
Citadel worm hole tax
|
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4253
|
Posted - 2016.02.21 17:17:28 -
[19] - Quote
IIRC, I heard that with CREST allowing you to fiddle with your contacts, the conclusion is going to be a big list of every supercap pilot in EVE you can watchlist with one click.
Bit much imo. |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2970
|
Posted - 2016.02.21 17:34:58 -
[20] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Compromise:
You can only add someone to your personal/corp/alliance watchlist if you have their corpse. Caveat: corpse must be in cargo. It will reanimate upon activation and realign like a compass. |
|
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2970
|
Posted - 2016.02.21 17:37:36 -
[21] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Nope and not even any of the CSM on reddit can muster an argument beyond "it's broken, knowing someone, is online somewhere in eve is totally OP because. Just because NOW STOP ASKING"
It's utterly pathetic, zero acknowledgement that it's a mere fraction of the picture. But gotta keep them super guys happy.
As Rocket_X said in the cap groups - this is a single shard MMO - I should be able to know that someone has 'opted out' of being in my universe. That is reasonable. But why? You don't get to know if someone is afk or active, subbed or unsubbed. I'm not against Intel to tell if someone is online, but a continuous feeler that alerts you the moment that status changes without any input from you after the initial addition, is way to simple to add interesting gameplay.
Without going to deep into speculation, I believe this will precede a longer list of intelligence changes to come. With observatory arrays coming, CCP is going to have to remove or adjust a lot of the current streams of Intel in order to make the AO useful but not OP. I'm an Intel analyst in the real world, so I get little chubbies just thinking about the possibilities that may come. So if you'll excuse me while I go adjust my pants. |
Morrigan LeSante
Black Omega Security The OSS
1254
|
Posted - 2016.02.21 18:07:26 -
[22] - Quote
Why should we not be able to know if someone has placed themselves (literally) beyond all possible interaction?
I mean, if someone can completely and totally opt of the game, is it really unreasonable to know that? To know that you're chasing an impossible target?
Why would a random delay (5-15 minutes) on log on notifications and a 60 second delay on log offksis not suffice to kill the "instant" intel?
And the other thing is, without using killboards, eve who, locators and a scout in the system etc etc the damned thing is completely useless anyway. It's a very small part of the huge out of game metadata wheel, a part that says "this player is now in (potentially) play" and I think that is important.
In an environment were removing oneself from play is allowed, we should most assuredly be able to find that out and yes even that's that's a deus ex machina style solution.
I really don't care about the log on notification, delay that until your hearts are content.
Also I understand this is info available out of game - that should also be killed. |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2970
|
Posted - 2016.02.21 19:02:25 -
[23] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Why should we not be able to know if someone has placed themselves (literally) beyond all possible interaction?
I mean, if someone can completely and totally opt of the game, is it really unreasonable to know that? To know that you're chasing an impossible target?
Why would a random delay (5-15 minutes) on log on notifications and a 60 second delay on log offksis not suffice to kill the "instant" intel?
And the other thing is, without using killboards, eve who, locators and a scout in the system etc etc the damned thing is completely useless anyway. It's a very small part of the huge out of game metadata wheel, a part that says "this player is now in (potentially) play" and I think that is important.
In an environment were removing oneself from play is allowed, we should most assuredly be able to find that out and yes even that's that's a deus ex machina style solution.
I really don't care about the log on notification, delay that until your hearts are content.
Also I understand this is info available out of game - that should also be killed. So, I'll repeat myself, if you should know why someon"opted out" by extension shouldn't you know when they have opted out in other means? Docking, afk, unsubbed, etc. Another way to look at it, is why should you know if they've opted out?
And so what if it requires other tools to increase usefulness (which are not all required to be used)? Should a system of instant logon tracking be in place at all? It honestly never should have been implemented to begin with. You might as well ask for info on whether or not your local cloaks camper has decided to not be afk, even if it's delayed.
And on top of that, the process is exceedingly easy and fully accessible. And with recent additions to CREST functionality, it's even easier to do it en masse. Not even a method for the receiving pilot to play counter or manipulate it. How is that balanced?
So, why do you think you have to know if a pilot is online, even though you say it's mostly useless? Btw, there will still be ways to know if a pilot is online, you just don't get an updated list or notification. |
Morrigan LeSante
Black Omega Security The OSS
1256
|
Posted - 2016.02.21 19:35:56 -
[24] - Quote
Docking, afk can be camped. You have a possibility of contact. Logged off, taken their ball and gone home? You get nothing.
I said knowing ONLINE is useless without other data, knowing a chase is actually impossible is not useless, just reasonable.
Like I say, what's unreasonable about killing out of game access and delaying the log ON notification? |
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4254
|
Posted - 2016.02.21 19:45:07 -
[25] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Docking, afk can be camped. You have a possibility of contact. Logged off, taken their ball and gone home? You get nothing.
I said knowing ONLINE is useless without other data, knowing a chase is actually impossible is not useless, just reasonable.
Like I say, what's unreasonable about killing out of game access and delaying the log ON notification?
Knowing PL/NC./goons/T-C/whoever have fifty supercap pilots logging in all at once is far from useless information. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
14231
|
Posted - 2016.02.21 19:47:21 -
[26] - Quote
The issue here for literally everyone who isn't wrecking crew is fairly simple, we can't check if someone is worth looking for.
I don't need to know when you log in but I do need to check of you are online before I waste my isk, time and effort looking for you.
I need to be able to ping someone and get a binary online/offline response at the very least or my only other reasonable hope of seeing a war target is by camping the hubs and trade pipes.
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
|
Morrigan LeSante
Black Omega Security The OSS
1256
|
Posted - 2016.02.21 19:47:43 -
[27] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:Docking, afk can be camped. You have a possibility of contact. Logged off, taken their ball and gone home? You get nothing.
I said knowing ONLINE is useless without other data, knowing a chase is actually impossible is not useless, just reasonable.
Like I say, what's unreasonable about killing out of game access and delaying the log ON notification? Knowing PL/NC./goons/T-C/whoever have fifty supercap pilots logging in all at once is far from useless information.
Right, which is a problem with supers and is being addressed in Citadels.
And again, were log on information randomly delayed this is materially devalued.
ed: Ralph gets it. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1599
|
Posted - 2016.02.21 20:15:07 -
[28] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:The issue here for literally everyone who isn't wrecking crew is fairly simple, we can't check if someone is worth looking for.
I don't need to know when you log in but I do need to check of you are online before I waste my isk, time and effort looking for you.
I need to be able to ping someone and get a binary online/offline response at the very least or my only other reasonable hope of seeing a war target is by camping the hubs and trade pipes.
I like this idea you have to check if they are online or not so you can't instantly know if a bunch of supers log in unless you check the pilots individually
Citadel worm hole tax
|
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4254
|
Posted - 2016.02.21 20:18:11 -
[29] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:The issue here for literally everyone who isn't wrecking crew is fairly simple, we can't check if someone is worth looking for.
I don't need to know when you log in but I do need to check of you are online before I waste my isk, time and effort looking for you.
I need to be able to ping someone and get a binary online/offline response at the very least or my only other reasonable hope of seeing a war target is by camping the hubs and trade pipes.
That's actually not a bad idea. Chuck a small cooldown on it so you can't ping someone every ten seconds, and keep it in game only, and you might have a decent replacement. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
14233
|
Posted - 2016.02.21 20:20:08 -
[30] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:The issue here for literally everyone who isn't wrecking crew is fairly simple, we can't check if someone is worth looking for.
I don't need to know when you log in but I do need to check of you are online before I waste my isk, time and effort looking for you.
I need to be able to ping someone and get a binary online/offline response at the very least or my only other reasonable hope of seeing a war target is by camping the hubs and trade pipes. I like this idea you have to check if they are online or not so you can't instantly know if a bunch of supers log in unless you check the pilots individually Particularly given they are war targets, we pay for aggression rights, they get 24h notice of who we are and what we intend and for the expected duration of hostility.
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |