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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2999
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Posted - 2016.02.22 19:14:04 -
[91] - Quote
Mag's wrote:So you are an advocate, for the removal of local? I'll take a delayed Constellation chat as a local replacement. I'm not against people knowing roughly who is in their vicinity to interact with and it means you can't just camp a gate and remain totally invisible to local/constellation. But you can quickly pass through without being there long enough to come up on the system.
And Starrakatt, I hear there are these things called locators and friends to tell you which of the 5,000 systems you referred to you actually need to visit. I'm personally even fine with locater agents getting on/offline status showing up as long as you actually have to fly to the agent, have standings, and pay them with a cooldown before you can use them again. If you can use them remotely, that's OP since you can just churn through 50 of them instantly while sitting docked at no risk. If you don't need standings that's OP because you can use a bunch of alts to utilize them ignoring any cooldown. If they don't have a cooldown that's OP because you can use a single agent to find 1,000 people. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
14270
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Posted - 2016.02.22 19:25:20 -
[92] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Mag's wrote:So you are an advocate, for the removal of local? I'll take a delayed Constellation chat as a local replacement. I'm not against people knowing roughly who is in their vicinity to interact with and it means you can't just camp a gate and remain totally invisible to local/constellation. But you can quickly pass through without being there long enough to come up on the system. And Starrakatt, I hear there are these things called locators and friends to tell you which of the 5,000 systems you referred to you actually need to visit. I'm personally even fine with locater agents getting on/offline status showing up as long as you actually have to fly to the agent, have standings, and pay them with a cooldown before you can use them again. If you can use them remotely, that's OP since you can just churn through 50 of them instantly while sitting docked at no risk. If you don't need standings that's OP because you can use a bunch of alts to utilize them ignoring any cooldown. If they don't have a cooldown that's OP because you can use a single agent to find 1,000 people. I would also settle for the agent spitting the name back at you and refusing to run if they aren't online , tbh it never sat all that well with me that they work on you even when you are off line.
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
1061
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Posted - 2016.02.22 22:13:38 -
[93] - Quote
The game needs to get rid of the easy intel and provide us with more player driven methods in the form of deployable structures, better locators agents, services, skills, and player created services such as a spy market. |
Starrakatt
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps FETID
378
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Posted - 2016.02.22 22:49:27 -
[94] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:The game needs to get rid of the easy intel and provide us with more player driven methods in the form of deployable structures, better locators agents, services, skills, and player created services such as a spy market. I agree with this: Give my a structure that make the job of Locators and I'll be happy.
Nevyn Auscent wrote:And Starrakatt, I hear there are these things called locators and friends to tell you which of the 5,000 systems you referred to you actually need to visit. You didn't read my previous post, I was answering and provoking someone to give an answer on his suggestion about removing Locators and make players find other players by themselves.
Barret Fruitcake wrote:A character hiding in a dead end system and never coming out isn't impacting the gameplay of others too much, nor is he gaining any real advantage by being there.
I question anyone who has to track and kill a specific character in any game. You didn't answer my question at all, you just wrote some flipping comment on my P.S. edit.
The question was: How am I to find a player if I don't know he's online and have to rely on scouting most of New Eden to find him, not knowing if he's even online. If you are being honest, you will know it is not really possible.
Also, a lot of players specialize on tracking and finding other elusive players, or are just plain mercs and have contracts to fulfill. or maybe its an emergent gameplay, right, and you want to find taht guy who ganked your freighter last week and make him pay. Plenty of reasons.
I belive you or a corpmate/alt corp ended up on the wrong end of a scram by Hisec mercs where you thought you wouldn't be found, or you lost a super to players camping you.
Now don't get me wrong: I will adapt to Watchlist removal, but we need to get something to balance it out, like the agent (or structure, whatever it is) flat out refusing to do the if the player is offline, for example.
Sneaky bastard.
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Valkin Mordirc
1906
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Posted - 2016.02.23 01:23:34 -
[95] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Barrett Fruitcake wrote: From 10 years of Null Sec and Low Sec Pvp experience, this is a bit overblown. You just don't want to lose your free intel in order to keep it easy to track Supercapitals, war and gank targets.
i dont give two ****s about your supers , truly i don't. what i want is the ability to decern between someone who is actually playing the game and isnt before i waste 40 minuets looking for him. i dont need to see when he logs in but i would need to know if he is online when i make the decision to try and find him. this isnt about your supers , neither i nor any of my friends could conceivably care any less about what or when you do with them. You don't, others do. Your uses for the watchlist are not the only ones.
And by that exact reason, A blanket nerf to watchlists is lazy and unneeded and hurts a style of gameplay tremendously, while balancing out another. That is unbelievably lazy and further demonstrates CCP's inability to actually make decent decisions without completely mucking up three different things in the game when they fix one.
We all here understand that using the Watchlist as an intel tool for supers is overpowered. We all get that. Everyone with half a brain can understand that fixing that issue is a good thing.
What we are mad about is the lazy fix CCP is issuing when that fix will causes more issues with other players. That have nothing to do with what they are trying to fix.
Large Merc corps are already planning on increasing dec sizes. It just going to further push enmass decs that people love to ***** about. Marmite runs about 90+ Wars. But Marmite is completely capable of run over 300+ if they want. My old alliance was capable of running 300+ it's not to difficult if you have the means to make isk.
Small groups will either need to go to lowsec and give up the style of gameplay they stuck with for however long. Or join larger merc groups. Long lasting merc corps like Devils who don't run 80+ decs are going to be extremely bored. My Alliance is already making plans to move to lowsec.
#DeleteTheWeak
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
14278
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Posted - 2016.02.23 01:40:43 -
[96] - Quote
Oh we will adapt, we could pump out a lot more wars than we currently choose to. it's not like we have to replace ships all that often anyway.
I'm really curious though, as a compromise how do people feel about the notion of locators refusing to run on offline players?
Better the Devil you know.
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
4089
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Posted - 2016.02.23 01:48:34 -
[97] - Quote
I feel like there's a near one hundred percent chance that one or more players who insist that players in highsec PVP groups should "adapt" to watchlist changes will later comment, or have already commented in the past in a thread about highsec warfare that large, trade hub camping alliances are the scourge of the universe and need to be dealt with by CCP in some way.
Just saying, we did warn you.
We always warn you. |
Barrett Fruitcake
State War Academy Caldari State
54
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Posted - 2016.02.23 04:03:56 -
[98] - Quote
Starrakatt wrote: The question was: How am I to find a player if I don't know he's online and have to rely on scouting most of New Eden to find him, not knowing if he's even online. If you are being honest, you will know it is not really possible.
Maybe with some hints from a locator Agent, you could narrow down his normal area of operation. A locator agent should never give you exact location with only time being the balancing factor against spoon fed intel. But it certainly could give you some information that needs to be evaluated.
Though it could be quite problematic if he is quite nomadic.
Hunting a specific character for in-game reasons should take some effort, by more than one player.
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Barrett Fruitcake
State War Academy Caldari State
54
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Posted - 2016.02.23 04:05:42 -
[99] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:I feel like there's a near one hundred percent chance that one or more players who insist that players in highsec PVP groups should "adapt" to watchlist changes will later comment, or have already commented in the past in a thread about highsec warfare that large, trade hub camping alliances are the scourge of the universe and need to be dealt with by CCP in some way.
Just saying, we did warn you.
We always warn you.
Yes, we should all prepare ourselves for the acting out of frustration of players who don't get their way, like every other time it has happened.
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Morrigan LeSante
Black Omega Security The OSS
1263
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Posted - 2016.02.23 08:08:54 -
[100] - Quote
Barrett Fruitcake wrote: Hunting a specific character for in-game reasons should take some effort, by more than one player.
Why should only one side need to put the effort in? |
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Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
229
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Posted - 2016.02.23 10:07:15 -
[101] - Quote
I am indy, so watchlisting is good defensive intel for me and my corpmates.
I'm not against the change entirely, I just don't like unilateral nerfs like this. The middleground is a better option until the new structures can be brought online.
I like the delayed-notification idea. Also like the binary online/offline option with locator agents. Extend this to a delayed local too.
There are more than "2 sides" in this debate. I hope CCP sees this.
Edit.
You might also have a "tag" option if you can get ongrid with someone. Sort of like a covert 'homing beacon' that stays active until they go offline (or until DT). Sort of a temporary watchlist. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
14288
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Posted - 2016.02.23 10:08:53 -
[102] - Quote
you know you have a point when your usual prey item is agreeing with you ...
Better the Devil you know.
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Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
229
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Posted - 2016.02.23 10:12:26 -
[103] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:you know you have a point when your usual prey item is agreeing with you ...
I vote for more content |
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
229
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Posted - 2016.02.23 10:15:37 -
[104] - Quote
You might also tie this into the (dysfunctional) bounty system too. For a price (bounty) I get a temporary watchlist on someone.
Good, because it is an isk sink, and also because the 'target' gets an immediate notification that they are being watched. |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
4092
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Posted - 2016.02.23 13:10:53 -
[105] - Quote
The thing is the only side whose opinions CCP counts are those of supercap pilots. They literally don't care what anyone else thinks because they don't actually process feedback and the CSM are a gigantic pile of shills who congratulate them for literally anything. |
Zepheros Naeonis
TinklePee
73
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Posted - 2016.02.23 13:25:24 -
[106] - Quote
Good riddance. The mechanics behind watchlisting someone were stupid and made no sense. |
Morrigan LeSante
Black Omega Security The OSS
1264
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Posted - 2016.02.23 13:42:14 -
[107] - Quote
Zepheros Naeonis wrote:Good riddance. The mechanics behind watchlisting someone were stupid and made no sense.
They made every bit as much sense as logging out mate.
At some point we need to remember it's a game and reasonable allowances should be made. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2624
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Posted - 2016.02.23 15:55:55 -
[108] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
I'm really curious though, as a compromise how do people feel about the notion of locators refusing to run on offline players?
Make them run with both a shorter delay and a refund with the result message telling you the target cannot be found. Hell I could see level 3 give last "seen" region and 4 last seen constellation for example since the guy still do some research with the shorter delay running. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1852
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 16:19:50 -
[109] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
I'm really curious though, as a compromise how do people feel about the notion of locators refusing to run on offline players?
Make them run with both a shorter delay and a refund with the result message telling you the target cannot be found. Hell I could see level 3 give last "seen" region and 4 last seen constellation for example since the guy still do some research with the shorter delay running.
No refunds. That poor agent is trying to run a legit business. |
soulkayn hooligan
Spirit Unlimited La Division Bleue
2
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Posted - 2016.02.24 17:03:47 -
[110] - Quote
This idea is very bad because it kills outright the pvp in wh I would suggest instead of deleted in the local 0.0 same effect but no gene caused for other area of the game |
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Soldarius
O C C U P Y Test Alliance Please Ignore
1473
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Posted - 2016.02.24 17:22:51 -
[111] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:IIRC, I heard that with CREST allowing you to fiddle with your contacts, the conclusion is going to be a big list of every supercap pilot in EVE you can watchlist with one click.
Bit much imo.
Confirmed. With the CREST watch list change, I can program a google-script to scrape the name and characterID of every supercap pilot in the game (or any other category a killboard provides) and input them into my watchlist without ever pressing a button. It can autonomously review my watch list, compare it to recent kills and losses, and then add or remove them automatically as frequently as I think is necessary.
All without ever pressing a button.
As far as the watchlist change goes, I'm not sure if its good or bad. If you don't have the current watch list capability, its a bit harder to know when someone is logging in their super-cap fleet.
Some may argue that having this intel contributes to risk aversion. But lets behonest. If your alliance has 100 carriers, 100 dreads, 10 supers, and a couple titans, are you gonna log them in for an op when PL, Goons, etc (obvious examples) are deployed nearby and you cannot tell if their's are logged in? Probably not.
I don't support free intel tools. But people have shown that there are some pretty good uses for the watch list.
Meanwhile Immediate-mode local i still a thing. Ask horde about their cloaky camping campaign in Fade. (I think CCP has something in store for us on that front though.)
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
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Zimmer Jones
Lightspeed Enterprises Fidelas Constans
452
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Posted - 2016.02.24 21:15:17 -
[112] - Quote
More content is not only leaving the current system alone, but expanding it to include certain individual (assembled)ships. Ccp has shown they can track individual ships via killmarks.
There are many rare ships in the game, sometimes traded amongst players for extra PvP fun. With citadel's player watchlists become obsolete for supercaps, as the pilot can now teather the former space coffin and go gallivanting about in a different, should they feel so inclined. Meanwhile Joe blow injectorhead unteathers and moves the space coffin around or just safelogs.
This does not give highsec bumpers the shaft, nor tankers. Dead cheap ships mean that ship won't be tracked, and bumpers don't aquire killmarks so they can be repackaged and not tracked. This also promotes use of carriers and ship shipping ships(bowhead) for serious pvpers that like their epeen pasted on their favorite ships.
In short give watchlisting more options for both social and antisocial reasons.
Combat, craftiness and cunning with useful tools are eve hallmarks. Non consensual PvP likewise.
Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.
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Barrett Fruitcake
State War Academy Caldari State
55
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Posted - 2016.02.25 08:34:13 -
[113] - Quote
Organizations need to have players out there looking to get intel. Intel should not be delivered through NPC mechanics.
Needing to have players out there looking creates content that wouldn't be there if you could just use your watchlist. It creates more opportunity for Pvp and engages more players in the Corp or Alliance in intelligence operations.
The current watchlist reduces the opportunity for Pvp overall and allow for easy-mode intel gathering.
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Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
411
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Posted - 2016.02.25 19:04:21 -
[114] - Quote
+1 to CCP - now, when are they going to fix local?
For posting an idea into F&I:
come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it.....
If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
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Fyonia
TEETH and CLAWS
0
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Posted - 2016.02.27 20:01:32 -
[115] - Quote
Yes.
Remove Watchlist, remove Local, remove Locator Agents.
More PvP for everyone.
That is all. |
Atomeon
The Scope Gallente Federation
68
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Posted - 2016.02.27 23:09:43 -
[116] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Compromise:
You can only add someone to your personal/corp/alliance watchlist if you have their corpse.
Then to make it a bit more fair the corpse has a decay timer. |
Inquisitor Tyr
Phantom Squad The Blood Covenant
76
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Posted - 2016.03.05 19:14:44 -
[117] - Quote
Removing the watch list notifications without an effective replacement system will reduce conflict and content. Consequences will be increased effectiveness of AFK cloaky campers, and fewer junior FCs stepping into larger FC roles.
AFK cloaky campers can be mitigated through a bit of research into who they represent. Hotdropers leave a trail of killmails that leads back to their bridging pilots. When watchlisted, you can accurately assess if the neutral pilot sitting in system for the past week is asleep. Removing the watch list notification will amplify AFK Cloaking, which is widely considered one of the most broken mechanics in the game.
Alliance level FCs utilize a large intel network to make them effective in large scale engagements. Eg: He/She will have scout alts watching the enemy staging systems and often have spys on the other side.
Aspiring junior and mid level FCs rarely have access to the same info. Some of this is due to the necessity of keeping your FC channels small for op-sec (and spam comment reduction). But with a bit of research, and trial by fire, junior FCs can eventually find out who the hostile titan pilot may be.
In sum, removing this bit of intel further compunds the problems that new FCs face as they try to build confidence in their abilities not just to themselves but, more importantly, to the people who may attend their fleet.
Reduced confidence in an FC leads to lower participation on his fleets. If your junior FC is constantly getting dropped on and dunked, people will stop going on his fleets. The spin off effect is that people will only want to attend fleets with their Main Alliance FC. Fewer junior FCs will have the chance to learn and grow into senior positions in circumstances where their enemy uses capitals regularly. Fewer FCs will lead to less fleets, more stand downs, more blue balled fleets, and less content overall.
I dont disagree that it would make some sense to remove the metagame aspect of the watch list; however, has an effective in game system been designed and implemented to replace this lost functionality ? |
Inquisitor Tyr
Phantom Squad The Blood Covenant
76
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Posted - 2016.03.05 19:17:08 -
[118] - Quote
Fyonia wrote:Yes.
Remove Watchlist, remove Local, remove Locator Agents.
More PvP for everyone.
That is all.
"More PVP" Cries the cyno alt pilot with zero kills.
Make sure to log in some more alt accounts and spam the thread to misrepresent the consensus.
https://zkillboard.com/corporation/98079395/ |
Monite Harajem
Phantom Squad The Blood Covenant
3
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Posted - 2016.03.05 20:14:51 -
[119] - Quote
Before removing the watch list notification, CCP should make it so players can no longer cloak from server going online until next down time. Im not against removing the watchlist but other changes should be done before or at the same time.
Make it so cloaking drains cap and stops cap recharge when the cloaking device is being used(actively cloaking). Giving ships that are able to use the covert op cloaking longer cloaking timer then those using the other cloaking devices. This way theres a chance players can kill the camper if the player walks away to work or goes to bed. Its pretty stupid that you're able to do so anyways, sure makes content for some but stops content for a lot more then the 5-15 covert pilots that might jump in.
Make it so you can no longer make bookmarks while in warp, so many players cry about more PvP but every time they get a fair fight they hop between bookmarks they made while in warp to try and get away to find a fight they have the upper hand(Mining ship or hauler).
If a player logs off in null sec where they or their corp/alliance doesnt own and or having positive standings with those that hold sov, there should be a 60 second timer after the player logs off before the account fully logs out. That will create content for people to scan out, instead of sit at a gate waiting for a chicken to log back on.
To many other game mechanics are being abused for those that cry "Need more PvP" because it works in their favor, but I know if you change these things I covered you'll have a lot of little chickens showing their "true form of pvp". They want the watch list removed so you dont know if they logged off or slipped away.
Put an end to chickens in space already so the real PvP finally starts. You wouldnt be able to go into someones space looking for a fight then log off because you found more then you think you could handle, what happened to every turn has its risks? |
Shalmon Aliatus
Bluestar Enterprises The Craftsmen
8
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Posted - 2016.03.06 00:24:30 -
[120] - Quote
Speaking of the removal of local:
Can some CCP guy tell me the amount of traffic that is created by very active locals (Jita, Amarr, Dodi, etc.) ? Sure, it is not much compared to all the ship data, but is still a steady amount of data send from one player to the server and them to the 1500 other people in local.
I would really enjoy a Jita without local chat |
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