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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
1097
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Posted - 2016.02.23 21:10:47 -
[91] - Quote
For the last paragrph, account security, may I suggest KeePass 2.
It is freeware and yes you can google / yahoo / wiki it first and it comes with an inbuild password creator which you can customize and a bajillion plugins you can use but are not required to.
And another thing I like to "advertise" is the Yubico Yubikey, which is an USB dongle which is the password as soon as you plug it in. Google or yahoo or wiki or whatever you like to investigate with this first and make your own, informed, decision about it.
The Yubikey is a 2-factor authorization tool that should work with EVE's 2-factor authorization, UNLESS you have a computer that has an Intel P45 chipset or earlier model. This is no joke and I am warning everyone with said chipset to not use a Yubikey with 2-factor authorization because of a bug in the chipset that makes weird time values and invalidates all encryption key values.
ALL of them, wether it is GnuPG, PGP, RSA.
I didn't put any links here you might click "by accident" and start blaming me for things that are out of my control.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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Mai Khumm
Lonetrek Freeport
818
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Posted - 2016.02.23 21:14:32 -
[92] - Quote
NSA Bivas wrote:referring to the overlays
I have 8 accounts but for the good of the game I think you should make it so you can launch only one client all this other measures that you take are useless I wouldn't go that far, believe it or not you'd kill a good amount of subscriptions this way.
It would be better for 3-4, but that REALLY wouldn't stop determined people. For example, using remote desktop software prevents CCP from detecting botting software. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6946
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Posted - 2016.02.23 21:28:12 -
[93] - Quote
Mai Khumm wrote:NSA Bivas wrote: you should make it so you can launch only one client all this other measures that you take are useless I wouldn't go that far, believe it or not you'd kill a good amount of subscriptions this way. No way... I thought this was foolproof.
it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players
http://eveboard.com/ranks
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Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
85
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Posted - 2016.02.23 21:29:53 -
[94] - Quote
As a loyal customer who's been here since the beginning (Well minus the first few months!) it saddens me to have to say this, but maybe it's time you fine chaps at CCP all start to pull in the same direction?
I know CCP has never really been a professional company, and in the old days that was fine. Back then it was a small team that took pride in it's informal interactions with it's customers and as it grew took pride in it's informal way of working, but this approach clearly isn't working at scale, and hasn't been for quite some time.
Somewhere along the line it became acceptable for CCP employees to effectively troll paying customers. I wont even go into the unprofessional behavior of some CCP staff towards some of it's customers, but the recent "rule clarification" is just the latest example. I simply don't get how your own staff can use 3rd party software with impunity while leaving the sword of Damocles hanging over the rest of us paying customers heads with the effective catch all ban justification that is the 3rd party software part of the EULA. This is even more mind boggling considering that your own staff develop and promote some of this software behind Dev tags on this very forum.
I'm sure I'm not the only one that would REALLY appreciate the last 12 years not ending up a potential waste of time so if you could see your way to presenting a unified clear and professional front to us customers that would be fantastic. If that involves someone vetting your staff's actions and being nominated to be the defacto rule interpreter we can all refer to then so much the better. |
A Nony Mouse
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
3
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Posted - 2016.02.23 21:33:47 -
[95] - Quote
How will you differentiate between operating systems which allow overlay like behaviour for task switching and overlay tools. Windows 10 for example lets you see multiple windows in large enough thumbnails to read and monitor just by pressing Windows + Tab.
Other operating systems (especially the wild variety of Linux windows managers) could offer a cascading flick book program selection, which if stacking windows so the right edge is visible would allow you to monitor multiple overviews on the same screen at once, switching to the interesting window rapidly when needed.
Certainly it would be relatively easy to make the window overlaying part of a custom Linux window manager, and thus provide a considerable advantage in a fashion undetectable by CCP, especially as banning people for a specific flavour of OS they use is pretty draconian. |
Morrigan LeSante
Black Omega Security The OSS
1274
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 21:34:11 -
[96] - Quote
CCP Peligro wrote:Thanks for all your feedback and criticism so far! Please keep it coming, we're watching this thread and will post replies to serious questions in the near future.
>Posts vague things that now are bannable.
>Posts vaguer timescale on when, if ever, clarification will be given.
This is a very uncool topic to let people guess on dudes... |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33399
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 21:46:49 -
[97] - Quote
Say I have eight screens next to each other in a 2x4 grid, and several of them are scouts in neighboring systems, or cloaked on every hole in a wormhole chain. I don't use any client overlays because they're all side by side and I can see them just fine. Am I breaking rules about unfair advantages?
What's missing from the announcement is intent. If it's purely to reduce unfair advantage, it's odd to think the problem is overlays and not the playability of multiple clients and a bit of hardware.
What are you really getting at?
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
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Shadoroth
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
10
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Posted - 2016.02.23 21:47:07 -
[98] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
>Posts vague things that now are bannable.
>Posts vaguer timescale on when, if ever, clarification will be given.
This is a very uncool topic to let people guess on dudes...
Time to go multi-box shoot a monument in Jita.
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stg slate
We're Kind of a Big Deal
95
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 21:54:19 -
[99] - Quote
ITT: People saying all these random programs don't give an unfair advantage and they are no big deal while loosing their **** about the idea of not being able to use them anymore. |
Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
73
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Posted - 2016.02.23 21:57:17 -
[100] - Quote
Quote:2. We may, in our discretion, tolerate the use of applications or other software that simply enhance player enjoyment in a way that maintains fair gameplay.
AS LONG AS itGÇÖs fair to everybody - neither you nor anybody else gets any unfair advantage GÇô we are fine with it. What's missing here is some kind of definition what might count as a fair advantage. Each and every third party tool I might use while playing EVE is of course aimed at giving me an advantage in the game. That's the very point of using said tool!
For example, Tripwire keeps track of my wormhole connections and the signatures I encountered. It would be more tedious, slower, and much less useful to do this by other means (e.g., pen and paper, or perhaps the built-in notepad). So compared with someone who does not use Tripwire I clearly have an advantage when exploring wormholes.
But is this an "unfair advantage"? Are you going to outlaw Tripwire? I really would like to know, since that's software I like to use in game.
And if you say that Tripwire is fine, then what about say the "Dscan Locator" tool in Pirate's Little Helper? Is that kind of "computer assisted" dscan analysis also fine?
And if you say that the "Dscan Locator" is indeed fine as well, then I really have no idea what you are talking about concerning "unfair advantage". Unless perhaps somebody has built an EVE PVP bot, or the like...
Please clarify. Seriously, you need to give us a much better idea where the line is with 3rd party tools. |
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Morrigan LeSante
Black Omega Security The OSS
1277
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 21:59:50 -
[101] - Quote
stg slate wrote:ITT: People saying all these random programs don't give an unfair advantage and they are no big deal while loosing their **** about the idea of not being able to use them anymore.
No, in this thread people are understandably upset over the vagueness of the wording and the "**** you if you weren't guilty but the algorithm picked you anyway" attitude to said vagueness.
>>If you get banned, then this is because the results of what you did and how you potentially gained from it manifested in our server-side logs.
So, if you do $NON_SPECIFIC_ACTION and the system flags you no matter what the hell you were doing, GTFO, do not pass GM, do not collect a ticket pile.
Oh these tool funtionality people are using I can replicate for funsies via my 3 monitors alone and I'm 100% ok. Or am I.....? We don't know because it's vague as hell.
So in the meantime, mooooar displays #NOPOORS...right? |
TheLostPenguin
Surreal Departure
100
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 22:06:41 -
[102] - Quote
This makes no sense, even on the scale of CCP things making no sense. If I use *some* software to view additional EVE overviews than just the one on the client I'm actually playing at a given point in time, then that's unfair and I should be banned? Yet if I use *other* software to do exactly the same thing, I get exactly the same information but it's suddenly not unfair and I don't get banned? Whilst I sort of understand the initial intent, regarding this point in particular just about any attempt to even pretend to implement rules is not only utterly insane but entirely unworkable. There is literally no way possible to enforce anything about this and bothering to try and write a devblog using it as an example of what's not allowed is laughable at best, and deeply indicative of how far from reality some people seem to live.
As a seperate point the brief mention in there about ending in-client logins was snuck in quietly, are you actually reworking how login mechanics work in any way or just dumping this to force people to use a launcher for the sake of doing so? If as I expect the latter then why? We do not need to **** about starting an additional program to start the program we want to run then closing the additional program to avoid useless crap running all the time. Maybe someone else can explain to me this trend for forcing players to load up additional needless layers of junk to play anything these days, other than a additional spot for companies to spam ads at me I see zero purpose. |
Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
85
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 22:10:03 -
[103] - Quote
stg slate wrote:ITT: People saying all these random programs don't give an unfair advantage and they are no big deal while loosing their **** about the idea of not being able to use them anymore.
It's more the totally random way the rules are applied. I'm also perplexed at how something like multi monitors which are effectively a paywalled advantage are ok but free software that does the same thing may or may not get you banned. |
stg slate
We're Kind of a Big Deal
95
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Posted - 2016.02.23 22:19:47 -
[104] - Quote
Rawthorm wrote:stg slate wrote:ITT: People saying all these random programs don't give an unfair advantage and they are no big deal while loosing their **** about the idea of not being able to use them anymore. It's more the totally random way the rules are applied. I'm also perplexed at how something like multi monitors which are effectively a paywalled advantage are ok but free software that does the same thing may or may not get you banned.
I think I can get a second monitor cheaper than a subscription for the supporting software for ISBoxer.
EDIT: I Forgot people used some of the free software solutions. Regardless, its not exactly a high pay-wall, more of a pay-curb. |
Morrigan LeSante
Black Omega Security The OSS
1277
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 22:23:11 -
[105] - Quote
stg slate wrote:Rawthorm wrote:stg slate wrote:ITT: People saying all these random programs don't give an unfair advantage and they are no big deal while loosing their **** about the idea of not being able to use them anymore. It's more the totally random way the rules are applied. I'm also perplexed at how something like multi monitors which are effectively a paywalled advantage are ok but free software that does the same thing may or may not get you banned. I think I can get a second monitor cheaper than a subscription for the supporting software for ISBoxer.
They don't come cheaper than eve-o preview mate. You know, the one ccp devs use and contribute to.
Why should a guy with one monitor and preview be banned yet I can do the same thing on multiscreen and be totally ok?
It is inconsistent and most ironically of all *unfair*.
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Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
87
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 22:26:44 -
[106] - Quote
stg slate wrote:Rawthorm wrote:stg slate wrote:ITT: People saying all these random programs don't give an unfair advantage and they are no big deal while loosing their **** about the idea of not being able to use them anymore. It's more the totally random way the rules are applied. I'm also perplexed at how something like multi monitors which are effectively a paywalled advantage are ok but free software that does the same thing may or may not get you banned. I think I can get a second monitor cheaper than a subscription for the supporting software for ISBoxer. EDIT: I Forgot people used some of the free software solutions. Regardless, its not exactly a high pay-wall, more of a pay-curb.
A paywall is a paywall, and going beyond 2 monitors requires substantial investment of hardware beyond just the monitors. Of course CCP could always do the graphics cards for plex deal again |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7235
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 22:28:45 -
[107] - Quote
CCP Peligro wrote:Thanks for all your feedback and criticism so far! Please keep it coming, we're watching this thread and will post replies to serious questions in the near future. Hi I like many others have the serious question about EVE-O preview. This allows you to tile previews of your active EVE windows onto another screen and clicking on the preview swaps you to the relevant window. In the past, comments on the EVE-O Preview thread from you guys has claimed this program to be completely within the rules, however based on this post, having those windows tiles there would allow you to see the status of inactive EVE clients. It certainly speeds up multiboxing, so I can see that being caught up in the whole "unfair advantage" thing as peole not using it would certainly be slower to react. In the same way though, having multiple monitors would have the same effect, as would the "task view" button in windows 10.
While you've stated here you will post replies to serious questions, this is a question that has been repeatedly asked and has never received a clear answer. People just want to be sure that if they use EVE-O Preview, they won't be suddenly banned, or if it's not OK to use, then the thread should be marked as such, CCP support of the application should be officially rescinded and the application link should be removed from the forum.
At the end of the day, we all just want to know where we stand and be sure that we can play without suddenly being banned because we've become too efficient. You claim to not be against multiboxing, but every time one of these posts comes out, it casts more doubt on people who play in that way. If you just want us to have one account each, just say that.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7235
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 22:30:50 -
[108] - Quote
Rawthorm wrote:stg slate wrote:ITT: People saying all these random programs don't give an unfair advantage and they are no big deal while loosing their **** about the idea of not being able to use them anymore. It's more the totally random way the rules are applied. I'm also perplexed at how something like multi monitors which are effectively a paywalled advantage are ok but free software that does the same thing may or may not get you banned. This. The rules are kept purposely vague supposedly to stop "rule lawyering" but all it really means is that legitimate players never know when they are suddenly going to be deemed as playing unfairly just because derps can't figure out how to set hotkeys in the client and spread their alts across multiple monitors.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Som Boty
Super Mother Fan Club
5
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 22:38:15 -
[109] - Quote
@CCP,
I've been playing since 2003. You have 24 hours to reverse your position on overlays/window management or Im taking my $225USD/month (15 accounts x $15) somewhere else. No, I don't mass mine, or plex, I have 15 accounts that all have different roles. i do have 4x miners with the same SP, but w/e.
i was fine with no broadcast but I have a lot of accounts and I want to manage them however I chose. if you disagree, then make a better client with better ways to display information. I'm tired of this nonsense ISBoxer debate and I'm tired of you making eve so hard to play that I have to actually decide if it's even worth logging in sometimes. Why can't you just let us play the game we want to play?
edit, seriously you make a game that REQUIRES multiple accounts for solo players but you don't offer any support for people who have multiple accounts. seriously, window management was the one thing we had going for us. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7239
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 22:40:55 -
[110] - Quote
CCP As an example, this is something that is readily achievable with EVE-O preview. Would as setup like this be against the EULA?
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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A Nony Mouse
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 22:42:44 -
[111] - Quote
Rawthorm wrote:A paywall is a paywall, and going beyond 2 monitors requires substantial investment of hardware beyond just the monitors. Of course CCP could always do the graphics cards for plex deal again
Not that much of an investment in hardware for more screens, and I know Windows 8 or newer will support at least 4 screens: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00WQYCKSS |
Memphis Baas
1178
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 22:42:58 -
[112] - Quote
That is the silliest dev blog I've seen in a while:
1. EVE is about unfair advantage in PVP, market trading, information gathering, every facet of the game portrays combat realistically not fair.
2. You're trying to encourage the development of third-party applications to help with EVE gameplay. AND at the same time DISCOURAGE it.
3. "Aren't you getting an unfair advantage with that program?" "Naw, man, everyone can download and use it, see? Thus it's fair, as everyone has access to it."
4. "Aren't you getting an unfair advantage with that program?" "Hell no, how is it fair that I'm poor and all these people are rich enough to buy skillpoints, or organized enough to band together, or able to pay a subscription," or whatever other justification we can EASILY come up with?
5. "Isn't this illegal?" "No, it's completely legit, I petitioned and they said go ahead and use it." "Oh, ok."
CCP you may as well reword your policy to simply say:
- At our discretion we will ban players who abuse the EVE game systems, using our definition of abuse. - You may petition to ask if a certain program or use of a program can be considered abuse. - RMT is not allowed and will result in a ban.
My suggestions are:
- Assign higher priority to suggestions or requests to improve the UI or reduce the boredom of certain in-game activities (because YOU modifying the game is our only option; clearly if we try to do it via 3rd party apps we get banned).
- Set up a system for 3rd party apps to get "certified" by you. - Set up a system to warn app developers of features that are against the EULA. - Publish this list of certified apps that are OK to use and won't result in a ban.
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A Nony Mouse
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 22:47:24 -
[113] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote: CCP you may as well reword your policy to simply say:
- At our discretion we will ban players who abuse the EVE game systems, using our dynamic and inconsistent definition of abuse. - You may petition to ask if a certain program or use of a program can be considered abuse. - RMT is not allowed and will result in a ban.
FTFY |
Maria Kishunuba
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 22:55:29 -
[114] - Quote
[sarcasm] So glad the policy don't cover hardware modifications, I really like those other monitors..
Also, can I plex for snitches on CCP FoxFour for enabling and sharing CREST hooks that gives an unfair advantage over people who don't use these hooks?
Region based market information, or the ability to change contacts etc. without even logging in. That is some gamebreaking unfair advantages right there. I'll take a plex, thanks :) <3 [/sarcasm] |
FearlessLittleToaster
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
87
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 22:59:09 -
[115] - Quote
I realize much of the feedback here is about specific programs and in my opinion they raise an excellent point about how vague this 'clarification' is. However, there is a second issue that is up in the air that is probably just as important:
Given how vague the rules are, and since the dev blog straight up says that things which are OK today could be bannable in the future, would CCP please commit to giving us some warning if they are going to outlaw a currently acceptable 3rd party app so long as it is not blatant cheating?
This was how the ISboxer changes were handed, with plenty of lead time so that people who used it could stop, and I think that really made the change less painful. My biggest fear here is that some reasonably popular and benign program is declared unfair and the auto-banhammer hits hundreds or thousands of players who have been fine for years. From the perspectives of both fairness and not annoying your customers having some kind of policy about lead time makes a lot of sense given how broad you are deliberately leaving the grey area for 3rd party stuff.
Also, for serious, please make the policy a bit more specific. I use EFT which gives me a huge advantage over somebody trying to fit using only the in game fitting wheel. I use two monitors so I don't have to tab between them which gives me an advantage over a player using just one. I use EVEMon because it saves me on tedium, whereas a player without that has to log in to check stuff. All three of these things are, by the clarification of the rules above, potentially banable offenses. Hilariously, two out of the three are also actively supported by CCP Devs. And yes, I know I am raising extreme cases but that is the point; you could do a bit better than that. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33401
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 23:11:17 -
[116] - Quote
Is there a long-term plan to make a single client so hard to play that it would be impossible to manage them without the assistance of third party programs? Some type of subversive reversal of the official multiboxing policy that has been lucrative for so long. I ask because you seem to be cocksure about making carriers nearly unplayable even as a solo client.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33401
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 23:12:38 -
[117] - Quote
inb4 cloaks require CAPTCHA between x cycles
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
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Shadoroth
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
11
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Posted - 2016.02.23 23:15:21 -
[118] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:inb4 cloaks require CAPTCHA between x cycles
A Captcha would both:
1. Overlay on the EvE Client
2. Confer an unfair advantage to the person who is at their keyboard, who can type in the captcha. This would at the very least, double the cycle time for the non-afk player.
The CCP dev who implements this would be risking a ban. |
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
272
|
Posted - 2016.02.23 23:15:34 -
[119] - Quote
Rawthorm wrote:As a loyal customer who's been here since the beginning (Well minus the first few months!) it saddens me to have to say this, but maybe it's time you fine chaps at CCP all start to pull in the same direction?
I know CCP has never really been a professional company, and in the old days that was fine. Back then it was a small team that took pride in it's informal interactions with it's customers and as it grew took pride in it's informal way of working, but this approach clearly isn't working at scale, and hasn't been for quite some time.
Somewhere along the line it became acceptable for CCP employees to effectively troll paying customers. I wont even go into the unprofessional behavior of some CCP staff towards some of it's customers, but the recent "rule clarification" is just the latest example. I simply don't get how your own staff can use 3rd party software with impunity while leaving the sword of Damocles hanging over the rest of us paying customers heads with the effective catch all ban justification that is the 3rd party software part of the EULA. This is even more mind boggling considering that your own staff develop and promote some of this software behind Dev tags on this very forum.
I'm sure I'm not the only one that would REALLY appreciate the last 12 years not ending up a potential waste of time so if you could see your way to presenting a unified clear and professional front to us customers that would be fantastic. If that involves someone vetting your staff's actions and being nominated to be the defacto rule interpreter we can all refer to then so much the better.
Very well written post. But one thing you have missed and I cannot blame you, I just figured it out myself.
In the light of latest changes and direction CCP is taking, there will be a price list for different 3rd party software. So if you want, you can purchase "licenses". Same like with SP. No one forces you to do it, but you can. If you want to "skip" or save time simply pay. Time is money - be it for training or for any other kind of service related to their gam. "Brilliant" CCP and turning our beloved game into money milking machine.
After this, it wont take much time till gold ammo :D
P.S. CCP please do not charge for station spin counter.
Edit: Am I allowed to use G-Sync on my monitor? :D
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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Chalithra Lathar
Rhongomiant Legion Industries The Explicit Alliance
33
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Posted - 2016.02.23 23:21:40 -
[120] - Quote
Its almost as if CCP is trying to **** off their loyal fanbase. At any rate, it is working rather well. |
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