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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Archibald Thistlewaite III
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners
874
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 13:31:57 -
[211] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:OK consider this. Would you agree that using something like ISBoxer to move your overview on the same screen as your active client so you can see it while it's inactive is against the EULA? The answer to this should be "yes" since that's explicitly written on the dev blog. Of course its yes.
Lucas Kell wrote:So why then would you think it's not against the EULA to place your active client over your inactive client with the inactive clients overview sticking out so you can see it while it's inactive? That create the exact same situation. Because using the ingame graphics options (that are available to everyone) is always going to be ok. Why would you think it isn't?
Lucas Kell wrote:Further, since CCP will be banning this behaviour based on their logs, not from seeing the clients screen, if one is banned and the other is not, how could the differentiate between the two?
This continues to be the problem with CCPs clarification of their EULA, all they do is make people feel less sure about what is actually allowed. We don't really care how they decide they want the rules, we just want them to be understandable and fairly enforced so we know where we stand.
As for CCP's detection methods. Only CCP knows what they are and what they look for. Take it up with them.
The reason people feel less secure about what is allowed is they believe what posters like you say things like windowed mode is no longer allowed.Lucas Kell wrote:Alhira Katserna wrote:So what about people who have multiple accounts but only 1 monitor? For example a 3x miner and 1x Orca setup where each window is sized to around 1600x900 and arrange so that in each corner shows a part of one client to easier click on them than using the windows preview. Will they have to fear to get banned because of this behaviour? Or the pvper who has set 2 accounts on one monitor (1 scout and 1 pvper) and is using this to show the Overview on the scout during still being active on his pvp toon? Will he also have to fear to get banned? Yep, full screen only. If people would stop trolling the player base things would be a lot clearer.
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Rawthorm
D.M.T inc Circle-Of-Two
97
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 13:32:58 -
[212] - Quote
Does anyone have any legacy copies of the EULA? Is someone able to tell me when CCP snuck this little doozy in?
Quote:D. MONITORING
You agree that CCP may remotely monitor your Game hardware solely for the purpose of establishing whether in playing the Game and accessing the System you are using software created or approved by CCP, or whether you are using unauthorized software created by you or a third party in contravention of Section 6.
That's pretty game over material right there. Even having unused multi-display software installed could get you nailed. Thankfully there are some old Samsung monitors that support adjustable picture in picture so there are hardware options out there for those with the wallet to support them. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7251
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 13:37:57 -
[213] - Quote
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:Of course its yes. Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:Because using the ingame graphics options (that are available to everyone) is always going to be ok. Why would you think it isn't? So what's the difference? YTou're not using in game graphics methods to overlay the windows, you ware using your operating systems window management system. What is the difference between using a window management program like ISBoxer to show the two overviews on the same screen and dragging the windows to accomplish the exact same thing. Either way, you can still gain the advantage of seeing the overview on the inactive window.
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:As for CCP's detection methods. Only CCP knows what they are and what they look for. Take it up with them. Yeah, that's kind what we were doing when you decided to leap in telling people how simple it is.
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:The reason people feel less secure about what is allowed is they believe what posters like you say things like windowed mode is no longer allowed. And according to the blog, in many cases it isn't. Windowed mode is allowed as long as you can't see any part of any inactive EVE windows.
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:If people would stop trolling the player base things would be a lot clearer. We're not trolling, we're simply point out the flaws in having insanely fuzzy rules.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Archibald Thistlewaite III
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners
874
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 13:40:59 -
[214] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:They give you an advantage over people not using them, and so according to this dev blog are against the rules. Before you claim they don't give you an advantage, consider why you use them. EVE-O preview specifically gives you the same ability to see inactive clients, so that will definitely be a breach.
You need to re-read the devblog/EULA/ToS again.
I don't break the EULA with any 3rd-party program I use. Could some of the programs I use, be used to break the EULA? Yes. But the programs themselves do not. Which is why what programs I or anyone else uses doesn't matter. |
Mail Lite
The Tuskers The Tuskers Co.
22
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Posted - 2016.02.24 13:49:38 -
[215] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Mail Lite wrote:Just wanted to check with you about 'Pirates Little Helper'.
It is a programme were you CTRL-A CTRL+C in local and it brings it up out of game, you get little icons which show what militia they are in, whether they are known to be link toons or whether they USE link toons. It also shows how many of each corp/alliance or in local without trolling though them.
It gives you instant access to their KB, their last KB activity and what their 3 favourite ships are. It also gives the average number of pilots on all of their killmails (good for identifying gangs/bait)
Can you confirm this is something that is ok to use? Pirate's Little Helper doesn't interface at all with Eve. It doesn't overlay the client, modify the client or interact with the client. It takes information from the Windows clipboard (Ctrl-C put it there) and submits HTML queries to access the rest of its information. You have nothing to worry about with PLH as far as I know. CCP couldn't ban it's use any more than they could ban the use of spreadsheet programs for industry calculations.
I agree with your outlook on PLH however CCP put this little gem in the dev post 'GÇ£We do not endorse or condone the use of any third party applications or other software that modifies the client or otherwise confers an unfair benefit to players. "
Otherwise confers an unfair benefit to players... This little catch all statement is the issue.
While all the info is out there if you want to look it up, PLH brings it all together and put it at the tips of your fingers. I can instantly look to see who can be working with who (alliance/corps/militia) who is a link pilot, who is a carebear, who is a pirate, their 3 favourite ships and direct access to their KB.
So yea, it doesn't interact directly with the client, but it does, in some peoples minds I am sure, give an unfair advantage.
Knowledge is power. |
Archibald Thistlewaite III
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners
874
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 13:55:02 -
[216] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:So what's the difference? YTou're not using in game graphics methods to overlay the windows, you ware using your operating systems window management system. What is the difference between using a window management program like ISBoxer to show the two overviews on the same screen and dragging the windows to accomplish the exact same thing. Either way, you can still gain the advantage of seeing the overview on the inactive window. . Read the devblog it tells you that using overlays to place elements of one client on to another is breaking the EULA. Having 2 clients in windowed mode is just that, having multiple clients open is ok.
Lucas Kell wrote:Yeah, that's kind what we were doing when you decided to leap in telling people how simple it is. It is simple. Its would be even simpler if people stopped trolling with silly examples.
Lucas Kell wrote:And according to the blog, in many cases it isn't. Windowed mode is allowed as long as you can't see any part of any inactive EVE windows. No, its doesn't say that. Read it again properly.
Lucas Kell wrote:We're not trolling, we're simply point out the flaws in having insanely fuzzy rules. Stop trolling windowed mode is not going to get you banned.
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6947
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 13:56:47 -
[217] - Quote
Mail Lite wrote:however CCP put this little gem in the dev post 'GÇ£We do not endorse or condone the use of any third party applications or other software that modifies the client or otherwise confers an unfair benefit to players. "
Otherwise confers an unfair benefit to players... This little catch all statement is the issue. No, the catch all is the point. It catches all.
it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that youGÇÖre also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players
http://eveboard.com/ranks
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7251
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Posted - 2016.02.24 14:06:06 -
[218] - Quote
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:They give you an advantage over people not using them, and so according to this dev blog are against the rules. Before you claim they don't give you an advantage, consider why you use them. EVE-O preview specifically gives you the same ability to see inactive clients, so that will definitely be a breach.
You need to re-read the devblog/EULA/ToS again. I don't break the EULA with any 3rd-party program I use. Could some of the programs I use, be used to break the EULA? Yes. But the programs themselves do not. Which is why what programs I or anyone else uses doesn't matter. So are you saying your use of EVE-O preview doesn't give you an advantage over trying to do exactly the same without eve-o preview, or let you see what is going on on your inactive clients? I can already tell you it does both, and by that alone you're breaking the EULA by using it.
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:Read the devblog it tells you that using overlays to place elements of one client on to another is breaking the EULA. Having 2 clients in windowed mode is just that, having multiple clients open is ok. Read it yourself. Specifically, read why it's banned, i,.e. the behaviour they are targeting rather than their example method of achieving that behvavior. They say it is banned as it "would allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows". That is exactly what eve-o preview and tiling windows behind each other allows you to do.
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:No, its doesn't say that. Read it again properly. It in fact does.
I'm going to simply ignore accusations of trolling, since it's clear those are non-constructive attacks, nothing more. Stop flailing your arms for a minute and read the dev blog.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Niraia
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
402
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Posted - 2016.02.24 14:25:56 -
[219] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:They say it is banned as it "would allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows". That is exactly what eve-o preview and tiling windows behind each other allows you to do.
So does having more than one monitor, or having more than one client on one monitor. I've reported your post for trolling, because I don't believe you're this special.
GÖÑ
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txcmf
Polish Task Forces C0VEN
0
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Posted - 2016.02.24 14:26:29 -
[220] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:It's not just isboxer. You have an unfair advantage if you:
- use EFT or pyfa - use evemon to plan ahead - use any of the manufacturing or research calculators to find deals and calculate profits - use a website or app to keep track of wormholes and create a dotlan-map the god awful w-space - use a ship identification chart - use voice comms - check people's killboard resume - have 2+ screens instead of just 1 - unfuck your overview
..or by possession of IQ higher than 70 |
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ISD Max Trix
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
154
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Posted - 2016.02.24 14:32:27 -
[221] - Quote
We are sorry, the fedos are busy cleaning up this thread. Please enjoy this video while we preform some upkeep.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=insM7oUYNOE
ISD Max Trix
Lieutenant
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
I do not respond to Evemails.
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Som Boty
Super Mother Fan Club
15
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Posted - 2016.02.24 15:40:56 -
[222] - Quote
ISD Max Trix wrote:Thread reopened. I have removed some off topic post, rants, two quoting post, and those quoting them.
Thanks for cleaning it up and getting it reopened so quickly! |
woooooooooooo
DeepSpace Manufacturers DeepSpace.
4
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Posted - 2016.02.24 15:43:56 -
[223] - Quote
anyway, i have few questions about this dev-blog.
Quote:"We do consider overlays using elements of a second or multiple other EVE clients to be against the rules. It changes the way the game is played and grants the player unfair advantages over other players. For example, having overviews from other EVE clients as overlays on one EVE client would allow a player to get real time intel from all those other game instances without having to switch to the other windows. Similarly, overlays using elements from a second or multiple other EVE clients to allow the player to activate modules etc. on those other game instances without switching to the other client windows are clearly in violation of our rules." 1. overlay that pull information from another client is considered to be different ISBoxer without broadcasting? I knew ISBoxer without Broad casting is allowed at this time, and ISB can still pull information from another eve client, and i understand ISB is still allowed atm. 2. then, is ISBoxer(or MultiBoxing softwares) can be completely banned from eve online? |
Som Boty
Super Mother Fan Club
15
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Posted - 2016.02.24 15:45:08 -
[224] - Quote
ISD Max Trix wrote:Thread reopened. I have removed some off topic post, rants, two quoting post, and those quoting them.
Actually I take it back. Why did you remove my post? You don't think it's irrelevant that CCP should know that someone who has been playing for almost 13 years and has 15 subs is in the process of cancelling his accounts over this? |
Archibald Thistlewaite III
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners
875
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 15:47:03 -
[225] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:[So are you saying your use of EVE-O preview doesn't give you an advantage over trying to do exactly the same without eve-o preview, or let you see what is going on on your inactive clients? I can already tell you it does both, and by that alone you're breaking the EULA by using it. No, it doesn't. I can make the exact same setup without Eve-preview using the games windowed mode. The reason I don't is because it would mean having to set it all up manually everytime. You keep going on about advantage when that is not what the devblog/EULA/Tos says. Read it properly.
You do realise that all the talk in the devblog regarding overlays containing elements of one client being placed on top of another client is CCP clarifying that those dashboard setups you were arguing for in the 'Multiboxing and input automation' thread in GD are not allowed.
Sorry Lucas, I can't make you read the devblog/EULA/ToS and keep all the words in the correct order. If you want to go on thinking that playing Eve in windowed mode means you are breaking the EULA thats your business.
I will continue to try and help those people who genuinely require help and ignore those who are only interested in scaremongering and rumour spreading. |
Lena Arzi
Sarmatia
1
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 15:47:52 -
[226] - Quote
By the way, the business clause should have an explicit exemption of ad-supported or donation-supported streaming per https://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/monetization-of-videos-and-streaming-policy/
In some legislations when the income you have to declare with the tax office is above certain threshold, it must be associated with a legal entity (a business), even if the streamer is self employed. I know it's a technicality and in some situations it's a load of BS, but hey we don't want to unintentionally ban people promoting this game, do we? |
Catt Stevens
Shadow Legion X The Bastion
76
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 15:53:10 -
[227] - Quote
You know with all the ranting about what is and is not allowed a simple statement from CCP could clear ALL THIS UP:
CCP just say -> 'ANY SOFTWARE THAT IS NOT OFFICIAL INCLUDED IN THE CLIENT OR NEEDED TO RUN THE CLIENT NATIVELY, THAT INTERACTS WITH THE CLIENT IN ANY WAY IS NOT ALLOWED, UNLESS IT IS AN OFFICIAL PART OF THE OPERATING SYSTEM OF THE COMPUTER THAT RUNS THE CLIENT. USING SUCH SOFTWARE WILL RESULT IN A BAN'
Pretty simple way of putting a long and lengthy dev blog into less than 54 words. |
Daugan
Scope Works Psychotic Tendencies.
15
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Posted - 2016.02.24 15:55:48 -
[228] - Quote
Or maybe CCP could realize they need to incorporate elements of 3rd party software, that VASTLY out classes their own offerings for client management. |
Ecrir Twy'Lar
Federation Navy 3rd Fleet
23
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Posted - 2016.02.24 15:56:05 -
[229] - Quote
Suede wrote:Altrue wrote:"Let us start with everybodyGÇÖs favorite reading material, the EULA" hehehe made me laugh. Interesting devblog, albeit a bit light on the announcements, but the information there is indeed highly valuable. made me laugh more as you notice CCP post this dev blog just after SP trading came in. I bet CCP have notice Players are gold farm SP CCP make problems for them Self when they are going more down to Pay to Win Model. Bad road to go down Pay To Win To why CCP not listen to it player base in regards to SP trading we will never know.
Exactly. The skill extractors/injectors are a huge invite for hackers. I can only imagine that their plans include hacking accounts, extracting all skills and selling them off. The question is, can CCP track where those injectors are traded to. If they can't, it's a huge fail. |
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
454
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Posted - 2016.02.24 16:00:17 -
[230] - Quote
CCP Peligro wrote:Thanks for all your feedback and criticism so far! Please keep it coming, we're watching this thread and will post replies to serious questions in the near future.
Why this Amnesty option CCP Games, so soon after the Company monetization option for "skill trading "
Regards, a Freelancer
ps: new RMT initiative: come clean, receive Amnesty
Eve online is :
A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online
D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification
http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg
http://bit.ly/1egr4mF
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7251
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Posted - 2016.02.24 16:02:51 -
[231] - Quote
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:No, it doesn't. I can make the exact same setup without Eve-preview using the games windowed mode. The reason I don't is because it would mean having to set it all up manually everytime. You keep going on about advantage when that is not what the devblog/EULA/Tos says. Read it properly. Care to provide a screenshot of your layout? EVE clients are limited on how small they can be made, so I fail to believe you're not using eve O preview to size them down below what the client allows you to use. Also, since players not using eve-o preview would have to set up their screens every time, that in itself is an advantage.
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:You do realise that all the talk in the devblog regarding overlays containing elements of one client being placed on top of another client is CCP clarifying that those dashboard setups you were arguing for in the 'Multiboxing and input automation' thread in GD are not allowed. I was never arguing for those, I was arguing for clarity in the same way I am now. If I multibox I use eve-o preview and I rarely multibox. I'd be quite content with CCP banning all forms of client layout tool if it helps them clarify the rules. Also, the dashboard setup your are talking about doesn't involve placing elements of one client over another, it involves placing elements of a client over a blank space in the same way eve-o preview layers the aero preview images over each other. I guarantee you I could achieve a similar layout using eve-o preview without chopping up any clients simply using a specific layering order.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7251
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 16:06:08 -
[232] - Quote
Catt Stevens wrote:You know with all the ranting about what is and is not allowed a simple statement from CCP could clear ALL THIS UP:
CCP just say -> 'ANY SOFTWARE THAT IS NOT OFFICIAL INCLUDED IN THE CLIENT OR NEEDED TO RUN THE CLIENT NATIVELY, THAT INTERACTS WITH THE CLIENT IN ANY WAY IS NOT ALLOWED, UNLESS IT IS AN OFFICIAL PART OF THE OPERATING SYSTEM OF THE COMPUTER THAT RUNS THE CLIENT. USING SUCH SOFTWARE WILL RESULT IN A BAN'
Pretty simple way of putting a long and lengthy dev blog into less than 54 words. Wouldn't be that simple, since there are Linux distros that natively contain broadcasting within their window manager, which we already know is against the EULA. Not everyone runs windows.
Perhaps it would be simpler if CCP stopped trying to micromanage how people play the game and instead worked on making sure their game mechanics were complex enough to make multiboxing difficult. Additionally, they could simply disable the client rendering when it's not the active window and add checks to ensure only one EVE window is classed as active at any one time which would eliminate 99% of the issues.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Khan Wrenth
Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation
462
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 16:06:42 -
[233] - Quote
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:Koenig Yazria wrote:[quote=Archibald Thistlewaite III]
Are you playing the game exclusively with what comes "out of the box", no EFT, no Dotlan, no Siggy, etc ?
No, I used EFT, Evemon(with cache scrapper turned off), Dotlan, Isboxer and Eve-preview fairly often. I'll be getting rid of Isboxer soon and I have no worries because I do not use them to break the EULA. What difference does what 3rd-party programs I use make to anything?
I use EvEmon, but I don't know what this "cache scrapper" is. I perused the options but I didn't see anything relating to it. Since I'd like to remain on the up and up, could you provide me a quick explanation of what that is and how I'm supposed to turn it off?
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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Archibald Thistlewaite III
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners
875
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Posted - 2016.02.24 16:22:54 -
[234] - Quote
Khan Wrenth wrote:
I use EvEmon, but I don't know what this "cache scrapper" is. I perused the options but I didn't see anything relating to it. Since I'd like to remain on the up and up, could you provide me a quick explanation of what that is and how I'm supposed to turn it off?
Open Evemon, goto tools and options, at the bottom is Market Unified Uploader, uncheck the use Market Unified Uploader box. Its a cache scrapper that sends market data to websites like eve-central, although I believe those sites now use the new API.
Either way cache scrapping does break the EULA but CCP have said they will allow it for now.
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Khan Wrenth
Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation
463
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Posted - 2016.02.24 16:25:38 -
[235] - Quote
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:Khan Wrenth wrote:
I use EvEmon, but I don't know what this "cache scrapper" is. I perused the options but I didn't see anything relating to it. Since I'd like to remain on the up and up, could you provide me a quick explanation of what that is and how I'm supposed to turn it off?
Open Evemon, goto tools and options, at the bottom is Market Unified Uploader, uncheck the use Market Unified Uploader box. Its a cache scrapper that sends market data to websites like eve-central, although I believe those sites now use the new API. Either way cache scrapping does break the EULA but CCP have said they will allow it for now. Thanks!
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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Memphis Baas
1191
|
Posted - 2016.02.24 16:36:13 -
[236] - Quote
Som Boty wrote:Actually I take it back. Why did you remove my post? You don't think it's relevant that CCP should know that someone who has been playing for almost 13 years and has 15 subs is in the process of cancelling his accounts over this? CCP knows because you canceled your subscription with them. They don't think it's relevant that the rest of the player base (us) know; it's basically negative publicity, however well deserved.
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Som Boty
Super Mother Fan Club
16
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Posted - 2016.02.24 16:52:45 -
[237] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Som Boty wrote:Actually I take it back. Why did you remove my post? You don't think it's relevant that CCP should know that someone who has been playing for almost 13 years and has 15 subs is in the process of cancelling his accounts over this? CCP knows because you canceled your subscription with them. They don't think it's relevant that the rest of the player base (us) know; it's basically negative publicity, however well deserved.
That's the point, I haven't cancelled all of them yet. I told them I would if they didn't respond within 24 hours. I know it's fool Hardy and probably won't get a response, but now it CAN'T get a response. So I'll just cancel and CCP will be none the wiser. |
Xerxes Fehrnah
Cherokee Mining Company
39
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Posted - 2016.02.24 17:01:07 -
[238] - Quote
CCP: Vague laws without specification are only used by the dishonest and untrustworthy who intend to figure out later that they do not like something and punish it without notification, then point back to the vague rule and say "That is against the rules."
You need to specifically list out the actions and software you are banning from use one by one. Not tell us "sort of this is banned sometimes in certain cases as we see fit."
With each month of game time that goes by, a person's investment in this game and your company increases. You create mistrust and fear by putting that at risk by leaving us unclear on what is against the rules. |
Tokyo Drifter
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2016.02.24 17:29:24 -
[239] - Quote
When I rat I put my clients windows over each others so that I only view capacitors and overviews.. Am I fugged? I don't use any tool. If that indeed is considered game breaking just ban the possibility of playing with multiple instances from the same IP address and enjoy bankruptcy next year. After years of milking the same autists playing with 10 accounts instead of trying to gain a new playerbase that's how you thank their loyalty. Great. |
Chalithra Lathar
Rhongomiant Legion Industries The Explicit Alliance
36
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Posted - 2016.02.24 17:36:24 -
[240] - Quote
http://i.imgur.com/G8LGsj7.png
apparently this is banned, and CCP claims to have a way to 'detect' it. Don't use windowed mode (or desktop window manager) if you want to avoid being banned. |
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