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Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.02.06 21:55:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine
Your argument is critically flawed and built on false logic. You are offering tired statist rhetoric as fact and it simply won't wash Amarrian. You laud the defeatest Republic stateswoman as hero because you want the Matari Submission. Do not try to contaminate the argument with such rhetorical dross - you insult me and you demean yourself further.
Ad hominem circumstantial. I make an argument based on pure military facts. The Amarr navy is the largest and most powerful navy in the galaxy (barring the Jove navy). If the republic navy would have had any chance it would have been forced to adopt guerilla tactics and the Amarr navy would have commenced orbital bombardments in order to crush ground resistance and draw the republic fleet out of hiding (basic Amarr tactics that have been used in pretty much every interstellar war so far. Quite successfully). Orbital bombardment is an ugly business. If the loss was the death of a former warhero turned rabid, internal conflict (which will die down. The matari militias are in spirit too loyal to truly defect over this, even if they will yell and wave their spears) and the loss of my position (or even my life) I would have done it myself if I had been in her shoes (with a matari mindset and the best interest of the matari people in mind). True leaders see beyond their own need and to the needs of the people they lead. Especially since, by common estimates, the republic fleet is growing quite fast.
Quote: It is "basic" since it depends entirely on your partial interpretation of facts and circumstances you are no position to prove.
No. It's basic because it's the truth, or at least a very good hypothesis. The Amarr navy was already sniffing around (you can't have missed the "dear" Admirals statements) and the conflict was escalating out of control. What would you have wanted her to do? The two other options in this case were "Sit and do nothing" or "throw her people into a war they cannot win". It's fine and dandy for the UK to sit and yell "war" when they have no soft targets to defend (planets that is) and a navy that could not hope to defend them even IF they could win in the long run.
Overall you have given no alternate solutions, no alternate scenarios. Just ad hominem. It's getting old Jasmine Constantine. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary. |
The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.06 22:11:00 -
[92]
Nomakai, why are you objecting to people using arguments that may or may not be ad hominem when you use them yourself?
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
If you openly support a Star Fraction saving her(or was it his?) ship from certain defeat then you cannot condemn a head of state from saving her nation from certain defeat, because make no mistake the Republic fleet (as is) could never stand against the rebuilt and modernized Amarr navy.
The above is a specimen example of ad hominem tu toque.
You cannot have it both ways. If it is wrong for ad hominem arguments to be used against you, then it is wrong for you to rely on ad hominem arguments with respect to our positions.
The Cosmopolite
The Star Fraction Recruitment |
Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.06 22:58:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Jasmine Constantine on 06/02/2007 22:55:31
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel I make an argument based on pure military facts. The Amarr navy is the largest and most powerful navy in the galaxy (barring the Jove navy).
The Amarr navy is an antiquated joke that will be annhiliated in contact with a modern military force many times smaller. (this is an opinion) ((just like yours)) - referring to your opinion as "fact" simply makes it pointless debating with you.
Quote: No. It's basic because it's the truth, or at least a very good hypothesis.
Blow your own trumpet much? (I suppose you have to, nobody else is going to)
Quote: Overall you have given no alternate solutions, no alternate scenarios. Just ad hominem. It's getting old Jasmine Constantine.
I thought we'd already discussed your critical misunderstanding of the ad hominen fallacy? If you are getting tired of getting whipped in debate you have my permission to withdraw.
Star Fraction is recruiting
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Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.02.06 22:59:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Nomakai Delateriel on 06/02/2007 22:58:30
Originally by: The Cosmopolite The above is a specimen example of ad hominem tu toque.
You cannot have it both ways. If it is wrong for ad hominem arguments to be used against you, then it is wrong for you to rely on ad hominem arguments with respect to our positions.
The Cosmopolite
Perhaps you are refering to "Ad Hominem tu quoque" (roughly translated as "argument against the man: You too") which is an irrelevant accusation of hypocrisy? To call it a Ad Hominem tu quoque (as in it's inconsistency version, not it's "two wrongs make a right") would maybe have been a valid complaint if it had been a debate over if it is right or wrong to sacrifice something small to save a greater value, but in this case it's a case where the Star fraction holds it to be right if a star fraction pilot does it and wether a "pro-imperialist" does a logicly and morally equivalent act. ...well my bad. I accused you of being hypocrits when you are instead holding double standards.
We have two options.
1. It's wrong to sacrifice something smaller to save something larger, even if it's just to gain a short respite (in which case you're hypocrits). 2. It's right to sacrifice something smaller to save something larger, even if it's just to gain a short respite (in which case your critique is null and void).
Star fraction makes a third (In my humble opinion, non-valid) choice. "It's wrong to sacrifice something smaller to save something larger, even if it's just to gain a short respite. Except if you're a star fraction pilot"
So far me and Jasmine Constantine have been arguing over the validness of comparing paying a ransom to save a few thousand lives to sacrificing a life and your own career (and possibly your own life) in order to save a billion or more lives. Your problem with this comparison can't possibly be that it's always wrong to sacrifice a life to achieve a greater good, because then your whole ideological program of armed struggle becomes pretty much void. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary. |
Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.06 23:02:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel So far me and Jasmine Constantine
Please, I think you mean Jasmine Constantine and I. (while we are being pedantic)
Star Fraction is recruiting
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Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.02.06 23:07:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel So far me and Jasmine Constantine
Please, I think you mean Jasmine Constantine and I. (while we are being pedantic)
Ah, objective and nominative. I never seem to get it right since my native tongue uses the same word for both forms. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary. |
Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.06 23:11:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel So far me and Jasmine Constantine
Please, I think you mean Jasmine Constantine and I. (while we are being pedantic)
Ah, objective and nominative. I never seem to get it right since my native tongue uses the same word for both forms.
Its an easy mistake to make, rather like passing off opinion as "fact".
Star Fraction is recruiting
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The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.06 23:18:00 -
[98]
Edited by: The Cosmopolite on 06/02/2007 23:15:38
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
To call it a Ad Hominem tu quoque (as in it's inconsistency version, not it's "two wrongs make a right") would maybe have been a valid complaint if it had been a debate over if it is right or wrong to sacrifice something small to save a greater value, but in this case it's a case where the Star fraction holds it to be right if a star fraction pilot does it and wether a "pro-imperialist" does a logicly and morally equivalent act. ...well my bad. I accused you of being hypocrits when you are instead holding double standards.
No, you're wrong and you illustrate you're wrong by basing your argument on the fact that it is a Star Fraction pilot that holds a position. It is a case of ad hominem tu quoque because you are saying that our comments on the actions of the Republic's politicians are invalidated by your view that we have acted in a manner inconsistent with our position in a similar case that you have drawn attention to.
Your argument is ad hominem. So are you right to use such an argument or not? If you are right to use ad hominem, why then are we wrong to use arguments that you say are ad hominem?
Quote:
So far me and Jasmine Constantine have been arguing over the validness of comparing paying a ransom to save a few thousand lives to sacrificing a life and your own career (and possibly your own life) in order to save a billion or more lives. Your problem with this comparison can't possibly be that it's always wrong to sacrifice a life to achieve a greater good, because then your whole ideological program of armed struggle becomes pretty much void.
Oh... not at all! My problem with the argument you are using is that it is ad hominem. Your claim that we cannot criticise the Republic politicians rests entirely on an ad hominem argument using the comparison you have just admitted you are making very clearly. Yet, my only difficulty with that is that when our pilots reply in a manner you regard as ad hominem is when you start squealing that we are using invalid arguments.
Double standards? Hypocrisy? Oh yes, plenty and from you.
The Cosmopolite
The Star Fraction Recruitment |
Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.02.06 23:46:00 -
[99]
Originally by: The Cosmopolite
No, you're wrong and you illustrate you're wrong by basing your argument on the fact that it is a Star Fraction pilot that holds a position. It is a case of ad hominem tu quoque because you are saying that our comments on the actions of the Republic's politicians are invalidated by your view that we have acted in a manner inconsistent with our position in a similar case that you have drawn attention to.
To clarify my position. I am not saying that your arguments against the republic are invalid because you did an equivalent act. They're invalid because you made an (according to me) equivalent act and praised it as a morally laudable act! You didn't go "Our dreadnought was about to be destroyed and in a moment of weakness we ransomed it to save our precious crew. It was wrong, but we did it anyway". You said it was RIGHT to save your crew even if it meant giving a billion ISK to pirates, which was merely a temporary solution.
That means that it's not ad hominem tu quoque and that makes your argument against the republic invalid. Even if you percieve the act of attempting to apprehend Muritor as kow-towing to the Amarr empire it's but a small sacrifice (one man, one renegade infact) to save a greater whole.
And to Jasmine. I may remind you that many Amarr pod pilot corperations use only amarr equipment, yet they do well against the opposing minmatar militias, despite battles with numerically even odds. I would not say that the Amarr navy is an antiquated joke. They've introduced a large number of new ship classes since Vak'atioth (practicly only capital shipclasses and the ol' Augoror remain of the old fleet). ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary. |
The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.07 00:16:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
To clarify my position. I am not saying that your arguments against the republic are invalid because you did an equivalent act. They're invalid because you made an (according to me) equivalent act and praised it as a morally laudable act! You didn't go "Our dreadnought was about to be destroyed and in a moment of weakness we ransomed it to save our precious crew. It was wrong, but we did it anyway". You said it was RIGHT to save your crew even if it meant giving a billion ISK to pirates, which was merely a temporary solution.
That means that it's not ad hominem tu quoque and that makes your argument against the republic invalid. Even if you percieve the act of attempting to apprehend Muritor as kow-towing to the Amarr empire it's but a small sacrifice (one man, one renegade infact) to save a greater whole.
I'm afraid you are very confused. What you have just described is ad hominem tu quoque.
Let me break it down for you as I think you are being misled by cutting and pasting too much from GalNet encylopedias.
Ad hominem tu quoque is an argument that says that the position held by a given party is invalid because they have previously acted in a manner inconsistent with that position or they have made claims that are inconsistent with that position.
Now, you say that our view that Tatsue Nuko was right to act as she did with respect to her ship and crew invalidates our argument that the Republic's politicians were wrong to sanction the assassination of Muritor.
To be precise, you claim the following:
The Star Fraction have carried out acts of the form X and have claimed they were right to carry out acts of the form X.
The Star Fraction have criticised another party Y for carrying out acts of the form X.
The Star Fraction's criticism of party Y is invalid because they have previously said it is right to carry out acts of the form X.
In even simpler language you are saying:
SF say X SF have previously made claims inconsistent with X SF's claim X is invalid
That is ad hominem tu quoque. Indisputably. It is your argument and your claims, mind you. I do not agree with your argument at all.
So, once again, are you right to use the ad hominem argument that you have and if so, why are we wrong to use arguments that you claim are ad hominem?
The Cosmopolite
The Star Fraction Recruitment |
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Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.02.07 00:50:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Nomakai Delateriel on 07/02/2007 00:51:13
Originally by: The Cosmopolite
SF say X SF have previously made claims inconsistent with X SF's claim X is invalid
You misunderstand the argument Cosmopolite, either knowingly or otherwise.
The argument is: X is "It's right to sacrifice something small to save something greater, even if it's just temporary given if my options improve so that perhaps I do not have to make a small sacrifice the next time" SF says Not X SF previously claimed X thus SF says X and Not X SF are logically inconsistent. Because SF are inconsistent in their statements of X and not-X I criticise SF for being inconsistent and I do not dismiss the validness of holding the opinion Not X. The argument is not about X but your double standards concerning X. What is it, X or not X?
It's not Ad hominem tu quoque because I'm not claiming the validness or invalidness of X (actually I am claiming the validness of X according to my morals, but my argument for the validness of X do not involve SF or SFs stance pro or con X). In the case of UK they've constantly held the Not X opinion and I respect them for that even if I think that they're wrong.
Or to translate it to regular speech. Were you wrong to ransom the dread or was Midular correct to attempt to arrest Muritor? Or if you wish to bug out you could always claim that the two situations are not equivalent like Jasmine was (between her insults against my wit, my prowess and my race). Now the success of that bug out would of course be up to the audience, because I don't view it as a viable alternative. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary. |
Nekumi
Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.07 00:54:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
Originally by: The Cosmopolite
SF say X SF have previously made claims inconsistent with X SF's claim X is invalid
You misunderstand the argument Cosmopolite, either knowingly or otherwise.
The argument is: SF says X SF previously claimed Not X thus SF says X and Not X SF are logically inconsistent. Because SF are inconsistent in their statements of X and not-X I criticise SF for being inconsistent and I do not dismiss the validness of holding the opinion Not X. The argument is not about X but your double standards concerning X. What is it, X or not X?
It's not Ad hominem tu quoque because I'm not claiming the validness or invalidness of X (actually I am claiming the validness of X according to my morals, but my argument for the validness of X do not involve SF or SFs stance pro or con X).
Or to translate it to regular speech. Were you wrong to ransom the dread or was Midular correct to attempt to arrest Muritor? Or if you wish to bug out you could always claim that the two situations are not equivalent like Jasmine was (between her insults against my wit, my prowess and my race). Now the success of that bug out would of course be up to the audience, because I don't view it as a viable alternative.
Explain to me how paying off pirates to save a ship and crew is equivalent to executing a freedom fighter please.
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Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.02.07 00:57:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Nekumi
Explain to me how paying off pirates to save a ship and crew is equivalent to executing a freedom fighter please.
Because executing that "freedomfighter" (which just happens to be a republic navy defector and renegade. I wouldn't say terrorist since as far as I know he hasn't hit civilian targets, or has he?) possibly prevented a war that could have caused the death of billions of matari citizens? ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary. |
Nekumi
Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.07 01:02:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
Originally by: Nekumi
Explain to me how paying off pirates to save a ship and crew is equivalent to executing a freedom fighter please.
Because executing that "freedomfighter" (which just happens to be a republic navy defector and renegade. I wouldn't say terrorist since as far as I know he hasn't hit civilian targets, or has he?) possibly prevented a war that could have caused the death of billions of matari citizens?
Tatsue saved her crew, Midular doomed the Republic. One of these things is not like the other.
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Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.02.07 01:07:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Nekumi
Tatsue saved her crew, Midular doomed the Republic. One of these things is not like the other.
I have more faith in the republic than that. They may be the enemies of the empire, but you learn some respect when you fight them. They won't scatter over Muritor (unless I have hideously over-estimated them). They'll muck around for a while, depose Midular and go on. The other alternative was a ravaging Amarr warfleet putting one or more planets under orbital bombardment.
Unless of course you hold the opinion that the Minmatar state is more powerful than the Amarr empire in open fleet combat? ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary. |
Nekumi
Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.07 01:08:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Nekumi on 07/02/2007 01:06:46
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
Originally by: Nekumi
Tatsue saved her crew, Midular doomed the Republic. One of these things is not like the other.
I have more faith in the republic than that. They may be the enemies of the empire, but you learn some respect when you fight them. They won't scatter over Muritor (unless I have hideously over-estimated them). They'll muck around for a while, depose Midular and go on. The other alternative was a ravaging Amarr warfleet putting one or more planets under orbital bombardment.
Unless of course you hold the opinion that the Minmatar state is more powerful than the Amarr empire in open fleet combat?
Hmm I fear I may have been too subtle.
Fact: Tatsue did in fact save her crew.
Opinion: The Republic is doomed.
You think otherwise but that doesn't change the fact that fact does not equal opinion.
Oh and on the subject of fleet power. If the Amarr are so overwhelmingly powerful, why is there a Minmatar Republic at all?
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Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.02.07 01:14:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Nekumi
Opinion: The Republic is doomed.
Oh and on the subject of fleet power. If the Amarr are so overwhelmingly powerful, why is there a Minmatar Republic at all?
A. But didn't you think that the Republic was doomed BEFORE Midular came into power?
B. Heiderans Pax Amarr still stands as the guiding directive for the empire and we're patient, we Amarr are very patient. Now if the new Emperor is Sarum or Ardishipaur then maybe things will work out differently but I wouldn't bet on it. Hah, the Pax Amarr might even become scripture. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary. |
Nekumi
Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.07 01:19:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
Originally by: Nekumi
Opinion: The Republic is doomed.
Oh and on the subject of fleet power. If the Amarr are so overwhelmingly powerful, why is there a Minmatar Republic at all?
A. But didn't you think that the Republic was doomed BEFORE Midular came into power?
B. Heiderans Pax Amarr still stands as the guiding directive for the empire and we're patient, we Amarr are very patient. Now if the new Emperor is Sarum or Ardishipaur then maybe things will work out differently but I wouldn't bet on it. Hah, the Pax Amarr might even become scripture.
A. Yes, but this event is a catalyst for this destruction and a good thing in my opinion. The Matari need to wake up before they fall into the same traps your people did.
B. So the Amarr let them break away and are content for now with the seperation and in the meantime they'll add more words to their magic scrolls from God. Pardon me while I laugh for a while.
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Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.02.07 01:35:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Nekumi
B. So the Amarr let them break away and are content for now with the seperation and in the meantime they'll add more words to their magic scrolls from God. Pardon me while I laugh for a while.
Only a fool grabs onto more territory than he can hold. We lost it once and we'll make sure that if we necessarily have to conquer it again it will remain ours, even if we would happen to have a rebellion and our fleet decimated at the same time and closely following a defection by a large portion of our Empires military forces.
Second, the scrolls are not magic. Only fools believe in magic. The scrolls are holy, with little special power except for their words which are just like all other words except that they are directives from God.
And as for your final "point". I'm sure the Udorians laughed as well back in the days. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary. |
The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.07 01:51:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
If you openly support a Star Fraction saving her(or was it his?) ship from certain defeat then you cannot condemn a head of state from saving her nation from certain defeat, because make no mistake the Republic fleet (as is) could never stand against the rebuilt and modernized Amarr navy.
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
You misunderstand the argument Cosmopolite, either knowingly or otherwise.
No I don't. Unless you are changing your argument.
Above you say: SF cannot say X because SF have previously made claims inconsistent with X.
So have you changed that view?
If you haven't then you are holding a position that is based on ad hominem tu quoque. If you have, looks like you keep needing to shift your ground.
Quote:
The argument is: X is "It's right to sacrifice something small to save something greater, even if it's just temporary given if my options improve so that perhaps I do not have to make a small sacrifice the next time" SF says Not X SF previously claimed X thus SF says X and Not X SF are logically inconsistent.
So, to be clear, you are not saying: Star Fraction cannot condemn a head of state from saving her nation from certain defeat if Star Fraction openly support a freecaptain saving her ship from certain defeat.
That's not what you are saying? Is that right?
Quote:
Because SF are inconsistent in their statements of X and not-X I criticise SF for being inconsistent and I do not dismiss the validness of holding the opinion Not X. The argument is not about X but your double standards concerning X.
So it has changed? Your argument, I mean? You do acknowledge that our view that our freecaptain was right to act as she did does not in any way preclude us from criticising the Republic?
Quote:
It's not Ad hominem tu quoque because I'm not claiming the validness or invalidness of X (actually I am claiming the validness of X according to my morals, but my argument for the validness of X do not involve SF or SFs stance pro or con X).
Oh, I see. So, you don't regard the fact that it is an SF pilot that is criticising the Republic as relevant to the validity of the criticism? That's fine.
So you are simply saying that Star Fraction are being logically inconsistent. I see.
What relevance, may I ask, does your view that we are being logically inconsistent have to our criticisms of the Republic?
Does the logical inconsistency you claim mean we cannot criticise the Republic?
Does the logical inconsistency you claim mean our criticisms are invalid?
No? Why then are you raising it? What purpose is served by it? You wish to claim that SF are logically inconsistent as an end in itself? Fine. We will simply disagree and argue otherwise.
Quote:
Or to translate it to regular speech. Were you wrong to ransom the dread or was Midular correct to attempt to arrest Muritor?
I say 'no' to both. The two are not equivalent.
Quote:
Or if you wish to bug out you could always claim that the two situations are not equivalent like Jasmine was (between her insults against my wit, my prowess and my race). Now the success of that bug out would of course be up to the audience, because I don't view it as a viable alternative.
Bug out? Bug out from what? You've just explained at length that your main argument is that we are logically inconsistent. So how is addressing your main argument 'bugging out'? You surely understand that as your new argument rests on your claim of equivalence it is precisely to the point to refute that equivalence as we do.
Your original claim, above, was however that we could not make certain criticisms of Republic politicians because of a position we held earlier. You actually say this in clear, bald terms. That is ad hominem tu quoque. You are doing a fine job of wriggling on that hook, because you don't want to admit you are using ad hominem arguments, but it isn't very convincing overall.
The Cosmopolite
The Star Fraction Recruitment |
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Nekumi
Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.07 01:54:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
Originally by: Nekumi
B. So the Amarr let them break away and are content for now with the seperation and in the meantime they'll add more words to their magic scrolls from God. Pardon me while I laugh for a while.
Only a fool grabs onto more territory than he can hold. We lost it once and we'll make sure that if we necessarily have to conquer it again it will remain ours, even if we would happen to have a rebellion and our fleet decimated at the same time and closely following a defection by a large portion of our Empires military forces.
Second, the scrolls are not magic. Only fools believe in magic. The scrolls are holy, with little special power except for their words which are just like all other words except that they are directives from God.
And as for your final "point". I'm sure the Udorians laughed as well back in the days.
So the Amarr where fools for grabbing onto more territory than they could hold? Has anything changed in the Empire that make their goals for universal domination different, apart of course from their relative impotence now compared to the your golden age when all you had to contend with where the fledging cultures you formally subjugated.
If your magic holy scrolls are directives from God, why are you considering it okay that they be added to with the writings of men? Isn't that heretical?
You're not a very good Amarrian in the classical sense are you? Better watch out or you'll find yourself in a re-education centre soon.
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Ashar KorAzor
Order of the Blessed Sisters of Amarr
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Posted - 2007.02.07 04:50:00 -
[112]
Four pages of transmissions, pedantry, and petty argument over useless semantics.
Is this how you're going to provide clone access to every man, woman, and child in the cluster?
Come on, we've got better things to do than argue all day.
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Azure Skyclad
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.07 07:33:00 -
[113]
Edited by: Azure Skyclad on 07/02/2007 07:32:44
Originally by: Ashar KorAzor Four pages of transmissions, pedantry, and petty argument over useless semantics.
Is this how you're going to provide clone access to every man, woman, and child in the cluster?
Come on, we've got better things to do than argue all day.
Apparently not.
Dear oh dear.
Edit: I was present at the events in question. I'm not going to put my point of view across so it can be treated to the same microscopic analysis that has taken place here.
Lets just say i know what happened. SSoE didn't get shot at. Mordu's chappie did.
http://www.voodoorockers.co.uk/ |
Vaslav Tchitcherine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.07 08:00:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Azure Skyclad Lets just say i know what happened. SSoE didn't get shot at. Mordu's chappie did.
Enough of your calm reason and concise summation, terrorist scum! Begone from this summit!
Besides, you made a spelling mistake somewhere. I assume. Otherwise why would be posting?
Star Fraction recruitment: come join the Yarrletariat! |
Masri Minoti
Sisters of EVE
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Posted - 2007.02.07 14:39:00 -
[115]
Now I am getting rather tired of Star Fractions harassment and lies. Yes lies.
I have reviewed all the logs from the other night, both comms, both ship and gate sensor logs as well as combat logs.
First lets address this issue of standings. I am in a position to give you an answer, but I won't, the reason is that the fact is Star Fraction are looking for a reason to justify their attacks upon the servant sisters of Eve.
Sister Rhayne was right not to give Jade and the others who constantly badgered her in to give an answer as she was not and is not in a position to make that decision plus if she did the great star Fraction Spin machine would go into action slinging out half truths and lies hidden within confusing statements along with the normal amount of arrogance and selectivememory that they use to skip over issues and holes in their statements.
Now for the other night and the the more important lie..
What Jasmine fails to tell you is the actions taken by star fraction.. This started off with them harassing poor Sister Rhayne in our public channel, this was followed by Star Fraction pilots ramming the SOE ships, as well as constantly locking their ships and making aggressive manoeuvres towards them.
A number of jumps later, Star fraction made an unprovoked attack on the SSoE convoy by using a interdictor to prevent Sister Rhayne from warping and force the escort ships to engage them so they could claim to be the victims, Sister Rhayne's ship cloaked before she could be locked and got herself out of the interdiction bubble while her escort engaged the Star Fractions ships. Its also worth pointing out that Star fraction planned this as they had their ships in position ahead of the convoy while Cosmopolite shadowed it. So as you can see they indeed started the conflict, and it seems their so called rules of engagement are nothing but a farce as they attacked the neutral escort. And now we see they are still wanting the SSoE to set them at -10. Its getting to the point they are begging for us to set them to -10, so that they will be able to declare that they are simply responding to our standings change and have justification in their twisted minds to seek out and destroy our ships with impunity.
I'm sorry but we will not be intimidated by the threats from Star Fraction, and we will not sit back and listen to blatant lies that they are spewing forth.
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Tareen Kashaar
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.07 15:18:00 -
[116]
I'm sorry Masri, but you are mistaken about our intentions. A simple "No, we do not regard the Star Fraction as enemies" from Sister Rhayne would have resolved the matter. Instead, she chose to act as if we had hostile intentions, which naturally led us to believe that the Sisters of EVE indeed regard us as hostiles.
Our goal is not war, and certainly not indiscriminate violence and destruction of innocents. We do however defend our interests against anyone who in words and actions seeks to oppress them. Sister Rhayne should have known as much, and acted less provoking. --- WTS: Forum Signatures, 30mil a piece. Evemail me!
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Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.07 15:51:00 -
[117]
Where do I start?
Originally by: Masri Minoti Now I am getting rather tired of Star Fractions harassment and lies. Yes lies. I have reviewed all the logs from the other night, both comms, both ship and gate sensor logs as well as combat logs.
I have also reviewed the comms and logs from that evening including combat logs - SSOE channel logs, Secret SSOE channel logs, and the gang logs from SF fleet personnel posted on our internal forums. And I do conclude that you are lying too Masri Minoti - alongside Sister Rhaynes you have also come here to tell lies about the Star Fraction. I wonder if we can tell why?
Quote: First lets address this issue of standings. I am in a position to give you an answer, but I won't, the reason is that the fact is Star Fraction are looking for a reason to justify their attacks upon the servant sisters of Eve.
Why not? Why won't you tell us if you have set us to -10 and are encouraging people who join your escort gangs to shoot us? Why won't you publicly make that statement? I think the reason is that you (rightly) fear we'll set you hostile immediately and engage your shipping. So you clearly prefer to set capsule-pilot levies against us as proxies for your own hostility. This is not the behaviour of a creditable humanitarian aid operation and neither do the lies you have given us here bring respect to your name.
Quote: Sister Rhayne was right not to give Jade and the others who constantly badgered her in to give an answer as she was not and is not in a position to make that decision plus if she did the great star Fraction Spin machine would go into action slinging out half truths and lies hidden within confusing statements along with the normal amount of arrogance and selectivememory that they use to skip over issues and holes in their statements.
So behind all those slurred accusations that sound (may I say) almost precisely like our usual forum critics in a Sisters of Eve gloss. What you are saying is that if Sister Rhayne actually told an organisation you have set to -10 that it was set to -10 you might risk being shot at? Is that what you telling me?
Because if you haven't set us to -10 then why not just tell us and the whole problem goes away? Why keep up this charade and keep hiring uninvolved capsule pilots for "convoys" and setting them up to fight us?
Star Fraction is recruiting
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Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.07 16:05:00 -
[118]
Edited by: Jasmine Constantine on 07/02/2007 16:02:03
Originally by: Masri Minoti Now for the other night and the the more important lie..
Yes it was an important lie. And the important lie was yours Masri Minoti.
Quote: What Jasmine fails to tell you is the actions taken by star fraction.. This started off with them harassing poor Sister Rhayne in our public channel
I am going to post the logs of this alleged "harrassment" and you will see it is nothing other than SF diplomats asking for an answer on the diplomatic issue and SOE personnel avoiding answering.
Quote: this was followed by Star Fraction pilots ramming the SOE ships, as well as constantly locking their ships and making aggressive manoeuvres towards them.
Aggressive Manoeuvres? In hi-sec? With concord intervention the result of any action? Ridiculous allegation of the sort that combat logs cannot show. Thus an ideal and fertile ground for unsupported slander. Ironic indeed that the one solid article of proof for this behaviour comes from the side of Sister Rhayne's own convoy member:
[ 2007.02.06 02:26:41 ] DJ Obsidian > lets go bump star faction out of the way [ 2007.02.06 02:27:21 ] Chekin > suicide smartbomber would do Tongue [ 2007.02.06 02:27:37 ] DJ Obsidian > EVERYONE [ 2007.02.06 02:27:43 ] DJ Obsidian > BUMP STarfaction [ 2007.02.06 02:29:34 ] DJ Obsidian > got them [ 2007.02.06 02:29:39 ] DJ Obsidian > sister [ 2007.02.06 02:29:52 ] DJ Obsidian > if you can run do it now my fighter is disrupting their formation
Inconvenient how solid communication logs contradict your testimony isn't it Masri Minoti?
Quote: number of jumps later, Star fraction made an unprovoked attack on the SSoE convoy by using a interdictor to prevent Sister Rhayne from warping and force the escort ships to engage them so they could claim to be the victims, Sister Rhayne's ship cloaked before she could be locked and got herself out of the interdiction bubble while her escort engaged the Star Fractions ships.
This entire incident is fiction. There was no fight between the Star Fraction combat wing and Sister Rhayne's convoy escort. What happened is that the SF had deployed an interdictor bubble in Pureblind against -10 war enemies and when the Sister and her escort jumped into the bubble none of them were harmed in any way. No weapons exchanged - no hostility either. Sister Rhaynes and her party were allowed to exit the bubble without incident. I challenge you to provide combat logs of SF vessels attacking SOE escort ships. I know you cannot do this. Hence you are a proven liar Masri Minoti.
What happened next however is supported by combat logs and we can certainly prove it. A Star Fraction Interdictor class vessel jumped ahead of our fleet into X-7O system and found a large hostile fleet from Band of Brothers in system. Warning the SF fleet of this presence our vessel noted one of the SOE convoy escorts arriving in a thorax class ship and ignored it since it was currently tagged "neutral".
The Thorax Cruiser locked our interdictor and opened fire. We have weapon impact logs of this event and can publish them. This is unilaternal aggression from the SOE convoy and it was answered by the deployment of an emergency indictor bubble and withdrawl of the SF craft.
Quote: So as you can see they indeed started the conflict, and it seems their so called rules of engagement are nothing but a farce as they attacked the neutral escort.
You are lying and we can prove it. You have nothing but slander and falsehood to support your lie. Show us combat logs of SF vessels engaging your escort fleet prior to your fleet attacking our ship or admit you are a liar.
Quote: so that they will be able to declare that they are simply responding to our standings change and have justification in their twisted minds to seek out and destroy our ships with impunity.
While at the moment you prefer to sponsor univolved 3rd parties to attack our shipping while hiding a secret hostile standing?
Star Fraction is recruiting
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Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.07 16:22:00 -
[119]
And now to the alleged "harrassment" in the SOE public channel. (this from SF diplomatic logs from our forum)
[ 2007.02.06 01:43:52 ] DJ Obsidian > Sister Rhayne im am calling out for forces to help us [ 2007.02.06 01:44:12 ] Seeker Lillandra > Sister, there is a blokade in EC-P8R [ 2007.02.06 01:44:31 ] El Filibustero > a warp bubble-type of a blockade? [ 2007.02.06 01:44:40 ] Sister Rhayne > /emote pouts with a slight frown. [ 2007.02.06 01:44:40 ] Seeker Lillandra > They almost got me in my Helios. [ 2007.02.06 01:44:58 ] Sister Rhayne > They cannot be reasoned with, then? [ 2007.02.06 01:45:20 ] Jade Constantine > might I ask the corp/alliance affilitation of the blockade ? [ 2007.02.06 01:45:26 ] Seeker Lillandra > I will speak to them, and see if they can help. [ 2007.02.06 01:46:46 ] Sister Rhayne > Miss Constantine, I'm afraid that I am going to have to ask you to leave after your actions with our last convoy. [ 2007.02.06 01:46:49 ] Poslen > surely they will see reason and understand the gravity of this mission? [ 2007.02.06 01:47:15 ] Sister Rhayne > The same goes for all members of the Star Fraction alliance. [ 2007.02.06 01:47:19 ] Jade Constantine > Can you clarify something for us ? [ 2007.02.06 01:47:25 ] Chekin > Can someone give me an up date here? [ 2007.02.06 01:47:28 ] Selim > You'll have to forcibly remove me, Sister. [ 2007.02.06 01:47:36 ] Jade Constantine > have SOE actually set Star Fraction alliance to -10 at this moment? [ 2007.02.06 01:48:35 ] Sister Rhayne > That can be arranged, Selim, althought it pains me to have to do so. [ 2007.02.06 01:48:54 ] Jade Constantine > can you answer my question explicitly please? [ 2007.02.06 01:48:59 ] Sakura Nihil > Are we or are we not -10? [ 2007.02.06 01:49:02 ] Troye > I wouldnt blame anyone for wanting to attack SOE and destroy the corpse for fear of further contamination [ 2007.02.06 01:49:27 ] Poslen > This corpse may be the key to a anti-virus [ 2007.02.06 01:49:32 ] Poslen > it must be studied [ 2007.02.06 01:49:47 ] Killiana Lett > I agree with Poslen here. [ 2007.02.06 01:49:58 ] Daran Hudson > Yup [ 2007.02.06 01:50:09 ] Poslen > and a vaccine discovered to prevent any sort of future outbreaks [ 2007.02.06 01:50:29 ] Daran Hudson > And besides, the virus ain't gonna spread *in space* [ 2007.02.06 01:50:46 ] Jade Constantine > it is a very straightforward question Sister Rhayne [ 2007.02.06 01:50:51 ] El Filibustero > you've never seen micropbacteria in asteroids? [ 2007.02.06 01:50:52 ] Killiana Lett > especially considering that symtoms of the virus can be easily detected as stated in the news. [ 2007.02.06 01:51:10 ] Poslen > there is no telling how many people could have been exposed before quarantine was established [ 2007.02.06 01:51:24 ] Daran Hudson > Well, of course, if someone shoots the body and vaporize it... then *maybe* we're in trouble [ 2007.02.06 01:52:08 ] Draegar Bane > as long as your shields are up the virus should not be able to penetrate your ship [ 2007.02.06 01:52:32 ] Poslen > unless u dock and then become exposed [ 2007.02.06 01:52:40 ] Nalya Nephilim > Well I guess the SSoE have choosen their allies between the Star Fraction and the Mordu legion, I can't say saddend to see it turned out this way but I just hope you have deep pocket to keep those mercenary dogs on your side [ 2007.02.06 01:54:23 ] Jade Constantine > The sister hasn't yet answered the question - perhaps she is checking with her superiors? [ 2007.02.06 01:55:17 ] Sister Rhayne > Yes, I have been. [ 2007.02.06 01:55:21 ] Troye > perhaps she has better things to attend to right now than your corps standings? [ 2007.02.06 01:55:46 ] Jade Constantine > well then Sister, perhaps you can now answer my question ? [ 2007.02.06 01:55:57 ] Sister Rhayne > Jade, it sounds to me that you are looking for an excuse to attack the Servant Sisters of Eve and I won't allow myself to fall victim to your spin tactics.
Star Fraction is recruiting
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Jasmine Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.02.07 16:23:00 -
[120]
[ 2007.02.06 01:56:13 ] Jade Constantine > its a simple question [ 2007.02.06 01:56:22 ] Jade Constantine > and one triggered by your own statements [ 2007.02.06 01:56:25 ] Sister Rhayne > Our standings are an internal matter, and since we do not mantain an active combat fleet it should not concern you. [ 2007.02.06 01:56:33 ] Jade Constantine > yet it does [ 2007.02.06 01:56:41 ] Daran Hudson > Er... Sorry to interrupt you two cuties, but where do we go ? [ 2007.02.06 01:56:49 ] Jade Constantine > and its my job to decide what concerns us and what does not sister Rhayne [ 2007.02.06 01:56:58 ] Sister Rhayne > Stacmon V - Impro Factory please. [ 2007.02.06 01:57:24 ] Daran Hudson > 'Xcellent [ 2007.02.06 01:57:30 ] Killiana Lett > Is that station safe to dock at, as in, has the virus been contained? [ 2007.02.06 01:57:43 ] El Filibustero > event going on now [ 2007.02.06 01:58:20 ] Jade Constantine > perhaps it might be an idea if I spoke to your superior directly Sister Rhayne since it appears you are unused to matters of diplomacy ? [ 2007.02.06 01:59:10 ] Killiana Lett > Perhaps the Sister has already spoken. [ 2007.02.06 01:59:17 ] Sister Rhayne > You have our answer, Miss Constantine. I suggest you accept that, we do not deal with terrorists and pirates. [ 2007.02.06 01:59:32 ] Jade Constantine > we have no answer - you have failed to provide one [ 2007.02.06 01:59:50 ] Jade Constantine > I asked you an explicit question Sister Rhaynes and you have replied with misdirection and evasion [ 2007.02.06 02:00:01 ] Jade Constantine > makes me wonder if you have your own agenda here [ 2007.02.06 02:00:10 ] Killiana Lett > Sounds like she is well versed in diplomacy then. [ 2007.02.06 02:00:18 ] Isean > Sister, it may be best not to accept help from a person of such antagonistic attitude. [ 2007.02.06 02:01:11 ] Jade Constantine > I think Isean, you mistake our intent - whether or not we help or hinder this operation will depend entirely on the SOE diplomatic representations to the Star Fraction from this point [ 2007.02.06 02:01:13 ] Sister Rhayne > I had no intention of accepting their help, as they fired upon my last convoy. [ 2007.02.06 02:01:31 ] Troye > I am somewhat out of the way from empire right now, do we have a definate departure time? [ 2007.02.06 02:01:35 ] Jade Constantine > your mercenaries you mean ? [ 2007.02.06 02:01:51 ] Jade Constantine > Mordu's Legionaires whom have expressed hostility to us for the past year [ 2007.02.06 02:02:02 ] Jade Constantine > your lies are a little transparent Sister Rhayne [ 2007.02.06 02:02:26 ] Jade Constantine > it might be a good idea for your to request replacement before you damage the SOE interests further [ 2007.02.06 02:03:12 ] Draegar Bane > why jade would you fire on her convoy? [ 2007.02.06 02:03:26 ] Jade Constantine > we fired on a Mordu's Legionaire vessel [ 2007.02.06 02:03:31 ] Isoc Krell > Hi! [ 2007.02.06 02:03:34 ] Jade Constantine > after he refused to withdraw [ 2007.02.06 02:03:41 ] Jade Constantine > Mordu Legion are enemies of the SF [ 2007.02.06 02:03:42 ] Isoc Krell > I'm ready to lose another ship! [ 2007.02.06 02:03:56 ] Jade Constantine > the science vessels were entirely untouched [ 2007.02.06 02:04:04 ] Killiana Lett > Yet they were on a mission of mercy? [ 2007.02.06 02:04:37 ] DJ Obsidian > isoc be warned i think we are going to 0.0 you may lose it all out there this time [ 2007.02.06 02:04:49 ] Jade Constantine > the sisters may have been Killana [ 2007.02.06 02:04:54 ] El Filibustero > /emote has been to 0.0 before... just more space, shrugs. [ 2007.02.06 02:04:57 ] Jade Constantine > yet Mordus Legion are a malign organisation [ 2007.02.06 02:04:58 ] Sakura Nihil > The sisters were untouched. [ 2007.02.06 02:05:02 ] Draegar Bane > so you destory the escort sparing the science vessels so your guilt is free... yet leaving a science vessel unprotected is in itself a death sentence
Star Fraction is recruiting
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