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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 11 post(s) |
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF Bad Intention
17
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Posted - 2016.02.28 15:07:58 -
[1] - Quote
I noticed the static background option didn't seem to be working recently, so I just logged on to attempt fixing whatever settings were wrong. When I opened the menu there was no sign of the checkbox for Load Station Environment.
Is this getting removed? I normally have several characters sitting in station at any given time and the GPU load of rendering the station scenes drastically reduces framerate for all characters when that option is enabled. Hopefully there continues to be an option to disable 3D rendering when docked or people like me will have to repeatedly sign a bunch of characters in and out instead of just docking. |
Fraxxton
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2016.03.03 17:28:41 -
[2] - Quote
CCPlease don't remove the option to disable the station environment. It has always been a major resource hog, and especially on notebooks avoiding any pointless drain on battery life is highly important. I never used the Captain's Quarters, and never will, but I cannot seem to avoid the dynamic station environment on Singularity anymore.
I don't need a hangar view at all, a simple "you are docked" wallpaper would be sufficient. For me, EVE graphics only become relevant after undocking. |
Daemun Khanid
Apollo Defence Industries
473
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Posted - 2016.03.03 17:44:40 -
[3] - Quote
Just pointed this out on the camera feedback thread as well. That ship bobbing makes me legitimately sea sick and there doesn't seem to be a way to make it stop.
Daemun of Khanid
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Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF Bad Intention
25
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Posted - 2016.03.04 06:08:11 -
[4] - Quote
Daemun Khanid wrote:Just pointed this out on the camera feedback thread as well. That ship bobbing makes me legitimately sea sick and there doesn't seem to be a way to make it stop. While that is an issue, it's completely different. They could make the ship stop moving while still forcing the rendering of the 3D hangar scene. That has a significant performance impact on other clients and many of us don't even look at the ship or hangar when docked. Being able to just render the scene once and have a static background is very helpful for those with weaker hardware or many accounts. |
Darkblad
Hilfe is like Free Entertainment
447
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Posted - 2016.03.04 07:11:13 -
[5] - Quote
I also was surprised to find the Load Station Environment checkbox no longer being availabe without note. Is this something players complained about to customer support, like about reducing all open windows using TAB?
You did measure the number of clients that use this option to disable station environments and came to the conclusion that there are too few to keep that button within the client?
Daemun Khanid wrote:ship bobbing Available on Sisi as well as TQ is a possible remedy for your nausea.
NPE-ISD-Übersetzt!
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Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF Bad Intention
25
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Posted - 2016.03.04 07:43:56 -
[6] - Quote
Darkblad wrote:I also was surprised to find the Load Station Environment checkbox no longer being availabe without note. Is this something players complained about to customer support, like about reducing all open windows using TAB? You did measure the number of clients that use this option to disable station environments and came to the conclusion that there are too few to keep that button within the client? I think it's more about preparing the camera for docking in citadels. |
Daemun Khanid
Apollo Defence Industries
479
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Posted - 2016.03.04 17:16:49 -
[7] - Quote
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:Daemun Khanid wrote:Just pointed this out on the camera feedback thread as well. That ship bobbing makes me legitimately sea sick and there doesn't seem to be a way to make it stop. While that is an issue, it's completely different. They could make the ship stop moving while still forcing the rendering of the 3D hangar scene. That has a significant performance impact on other clients and many of us don't even look at the ship or hangar when docked. Being able to just render the scene once and have a static background is very helpful for those with weaker hardware or many accounts.
It's not "completely different". You're looking to disable environment loading for performance reasons. I'm looking to disable load so that I don't see a ship bobbing up and down (since there's currently no other option to do so). Either way the issue is that they removed the option.
Daemun of Khanid
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Daemun Khanid
Apollo Defence Industries
479
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Posted - 2016.03.04 17:18:58 -
[8] - Quote
Darkblad wrote:I also was surprised to find the Load Station Environment checkbox no longer being availabe without note. Is this something players complained about to customer support, like about reducing all open windows using TAB? You did measure the number of clients that use this option to disable station environments and came to the conclusion that there are too few to keep that button within the client?
Daemun Khanid wrote:ship bobbing Available on Sisi as well as TQ is a possible remedy for your nausea.
As mentioned elsewhere, the camera bobbing option stops the camera movement (both in and out of station) however the ship itself continues to bob up and down when docked. You can tell the difference by turning camera bobbing on, and watch the ship and the entire environment move up and down. Turn bobbing off and the environment stops moving but the ship bobbing continues. Which is why I noticed the removal of the load station environment option to begin with. I figured I'd just turn it off so I'd have a static screen w no movement only to find that to my surprise they'd removed that option. It's like they want to make ppl sick. (obviously that's not the case, just can't for the life of me figure out why they'd remove the station load option unless it has something to do with interiors of citadels)
Daemun of Khanid
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CCP Darwin
C C P C C P Alliance
2003
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Posted - 2016.03.05 01:09:48 -
[9] - Quote
Please understand that we realize the value that a feature like this can have for someone who's running Eve for some reason on a really slow machine that needs it. If you are, it probably seems annoying and arbitrary that we'd take it out.
However, any feature, even something like this which is relatively simple, carries ongoing costs to the development team for the life of the game.
The way this feature works is that it loads the 3D station environment, including your ship, captures an image of your ship in the station hangar, and then disables rendering of the 3D station environment, using that image in its place.
First, even when the feature works fine, every release we have to make sure our QA team schedules a task to verify that it still works. We do this for every feature in the settings. Second, certain recent changes (I'm not sure exactly which ones, but I believe they were related to the new, unreleased hangar environments for citadels) broke this feature internally. This particular feature had broken before in the recent past, and each time this happens, we must allocate developer time to investigate and fix the issue. Finally, we have an ongoing problem (and I'm pretty sure you've noticed it too) that our settings menu is overloaded with choices, many of which are hard to describe in a tooltip or a few-word name. It's easy to add settings and harder (particularly when players depend on them) to remove them. So, we're trying to manage our settings more closely and not just leave them there because they've been there for a long time. In this instance, we're very sure (because we repeatedly check) that our normal hangar environment performs acceptably on "low" settings on a machine that meets our minimum specification. We also have data that lets us know how many people enable this particular setting, and it's not many. (Sorry, I don't know the exact percentage.)
If you're struggling with performance with a single client, I would first try turning the settings all the way down on that machine, if you haven't already, and see how far that gets you. If it's still problematic, turning on Interval 1 and lowering screen resolution may also help.
If you are finding there's a significant performance drop for your foreground Eve client with entirely minimized clients running in the background, this may be a bug, and I suggest using the in-game bug report tool ("Report Bug" on the F12 menu) to report it.
CCP Darwin GÇó Senior Technical Artist, EVE Online GÇó @mark_wilkins
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Daemun Khanid
Apollo Defence Industries
479
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Posted - 2016.03.05 07:50:26 -
[10] - Quote
Thank you for the response Darwin. I kinda figured it had something to do with citadels to at least some extent.
Can you provide any info on the ship bobbing issue though? It's extremely distracting in small ships and [pretty downright nauseating to be honest. Disabling the station environment was the only way I could see around this without further dev intervention and since that's been removed out of necessity... Could it be linked to the camera bobbing option so that it goes away completely both in and out of station?
Daemun of Khanid
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Fraxxton
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
9
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Posted - 2016.03.05 17:10:23 -
[11] - Quote
First of all: thanks to CCP Darwin for taking the time to explain the reasoning. I encourage other CCP devs to follow his example.
Still, I want to ask about what I mentioned in my earlier post: why not provide the option to completely disable the hangar interior scene? Displaying a static "you are docked" image/wallpaper with no details about the station type or active ship should be easy to implement, easy to test and almost impossible to break. I would even be happy with a completely black background, no artwork required. I run multiple clients on a notebook, and battery life is very precious to me.
As for reducing the graphics details: sorry, but this is not a valid proposal. I want EVE graphics while in space, but don't care about graphics when docked. You can't expect players to fiddle with their graphics settings whenever they dock or undock just because CCP removes a very useful, performance relevant option without providing an alternative. |
Darkblad
7
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Posted - 2016.03.05 17:41:49 -
[12] - Quote
This option is still available until the map is gone.
NPE-ISD-Übersetzt!
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Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
6193
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Posted - 2016.03.06 10:13:28 -
[13] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:Please understand that we realize the value that a feature like this can have for someone who's running Eve for some reason on a really slow machine that needs it. If you are, it probably seems annoying and arbitrary that we'd take it out.
However, any feature, even something like this which is relatively simple, carries ongoing costs to the development team for the life of the game.
The way this feature works is that it loads the 3D station environment, including your ship, captures an image of your ship in the station hangar, and then disables rendering of the 3D station environment, using that image in its place.
First, even when the feature works fine, every release we have to make sure our QA team schedules a task to verify that it still works. We do this for every feature in the settings. Second, certain recent changes (I'm not sure exactly which ones, but I believe they were related to the new, unreleased hangar environments for citadels) broke this feature internally. This particular feature had broken before in the recent past, and each time this happens, we must allocate developer time to investigate and fix the issue. Finally, we have an ongoing problem (and I'm pretty sure you've noticed it too) that our settings menu is overloaded with choices, many of which are hard to describe in a tooltip or a few-word name. It's easy to add settings and harder (particularly when players depend on them) to remove them. So, we're trying to manage our settings more closely and not just leave them there because they've been there for a long time. In this instance, we're very sure (because we repeatedly check) that our normal hangar environment performs acceptably on "low" settings on a machine that meets our minimum specification. We also have data that lets us know how many people enable this particular setting, and it's not many. (Sorry, I don't know the exact percentage.)
If you're struggling with performance with a single client, I would first try turning the settings all the way down on that machine, if you haven't already, and see how far that gets you. If it's still problematic, turning on Interval 1 and lowering screen resolution may also help.
If you are finding there's a significant performance drop for your foreground Eve client with entirely minimized clients running in the background, this may be a bug, and I suggest using the in-game bug report tool ("Report Bug" on the F12 menu) to report it.
You can just change it for an image placeholder of racial CQ or hangar.
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ =ƒÅ¦ - my sandcastle
Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
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Helios Anduath
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
96
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Posted - 2016.03.08 02:26:31 -
[14] - Quote
Nana Skalski wrote:You can just change it for an image placeholder of racial CQ or hangar.
You are missing part of the point here - having the option, no matter how it is implemented, entails additional dev and QA time each update as it is another option they have to check.
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Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF Bad Intention
35
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Posted - 2016.03.08 07:10:57 -
[15] - Quote
Helios Anduath wrote:Nana Skalski wrote:You can just change it for an image placeholder of racial CQ or hangar. You are missing part of the point here - having the option, no matter how it is implemented, entails additional dev and QA time each update as it is another option they have to check. And not having the option entails some players having to render a scene they don't want, resulting less performance and/or havingto repeatedly change settings. It comes down to balancing the devs' work with how much it affects players. Hopefully we can come up with a simple solution that is easy to maintain and doesn't harm the players like outright removing the option. |
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
1774
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Posted - 2016.03.08 16:50:30 -
[16] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:Please understand that we realize the value that a feature like this can have for someone who's running Eve for some reason on a really slow machine that needs it. If you are, it probably seems annoying and arbitrary that we'd take it out.
As a developer myself, I completely understand this.
However: in my particular case, I'm using that feature because some of my characters are preset to load into CQ, and CQ currently has about a 75% chance of hard-freezing the EVE client. I can't change the view to hangar until it (finally) loads, and it often hard freezes before loading, so as a workaround I've disabled the station environment.
If you take that option away, I'm going to be effectively locked out of several characters.
(ps: this is with the Mac client, which has simultaneously become much better and much worse.)
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
I voted in CSM X!
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CCP Darwin
C C P C C P Alliance
2009
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Posted - 2016.03.08 16:59:52 -
[17] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote:However: in my particular case, I'm using that feature because some of my characters are preset to load into CQ, and CQ currently has about a 75% chance of hard-freezing the EVE client. I can't change the view to hangar until it (finally) loads, and it often hard freezes before loading, so as a workaround I've disabled the station environment. I'll check with one of our QA analysts. We may be able to publish a procedure that will allow you to change that setting without launching the game.
Quote:(ps: this is with the Mac client, which has simultaneously become much better and much worse.) Are you referring to the new WINE option? If it's much worse in a way you can describe, please file bug reports about any issues you encounter!
CCP Darwin GÇó Senior Technical Artist, EVE Online GÇó @mark_wilkins
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Dersen Lowery
The Scope
1774
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Posted - 2016.03.08 17:09:56 -
[18] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:Dersen Lowery wrote:However: in my particular case, I'm using that feature because some of my characters are preset to load into CQ, and CQ currently has about a 75% chance of hard-freezing the EVE client. I can't change the view to hangar until it (finally) loads, and it often hard freezes before loading, so as a workaround I've disabled the station environment. I'll check with one of our QA analysts. We may be able to publish a procedure that will allow you to change that setting without launching the game.
Blessings upon you and your house.
CCP Darwin wrote:Quote:(ps: this is with the Mac client, which has simultaneously become much better and much worse.) Are you referring to the new WINE option? If it's much worse in a way you can describe, please file bug reports about any issues you encounter!
I'll follow up when I get home this evening (USTZ).
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
I voted in CSM X!
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Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
353
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Posted - 2016.03.08 23:45:12 -
[19] - Quote
Thank you CCP Darwin for the explanation. It would be nice to have this feature restored in some manner but I understand the development reasoning behind it. If there was some way for a variation to be performed that allows a static background versus full 3D render, that would be great. Even a static image of the ship itself used from item description images would get the idea across without excess overhead for the client.
Running for CSM 11. You should vote for me.
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CCP Darwin
C C P C C P Alliance
2009
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Posted - 2016.03.09 00:39:05 -
[20] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:I'll check with one of our QA analysts. We may be able to publish a procedure that will allow you to change that setting without launching the game.
Here is a procedure that should allow you to bypass Captain's Quarters once the Load Station Environment checkbox is removed, if you are unable to load Captain's Quarters successfully on your computer. Note that this particular procedure will reset all your local settings, including chat channels and overview.
Open the launcher. If necessary, log on to your account with your username and password. (If they're saved, so much the better.) Next to your account name, click on the Gear icon. Choose "Manage Profiles." Click "New Profile" and name it something clear, like "Hangar." Click "Close." Click on the gear icon again. The menu should now contain your new profile name as an option. Choose your new profile name and make sure the circle next to it contains a dot, indicating it's selected. Click elsewhere in the launcher to dismiss the menu, then launch your account. Eve will launch, and you should see the intro movie, which you can cancel by hitting Esc. Once you pick a character, you will be in your hangar view, not Captain's Quarters. Note that you will then have to set up your overview, chat channels, and preferred settings again.
CCP Darwin GÇó Senior Technical Artist, EVE Online GÇó @mark_wilkins
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Amarrius Ibn Pontificus
Legion Air Meracom
29
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Posted - 2016.03.09 18:40:27 -
[21] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:Please understand that we realize the value that a feature like this can have for someone who's running Eve for some reason on a really slow machine that needs it. If you are, it probably seems annoying and arbitrary that we'd take it out.
However, any feature, even something like this which is relatively simple, carries ongoing costs to the development team for the life of the game.
The way this feature works is that it loads the 3D station environment, including your ship, captures an image of your ship in the station hangar, and then disables rendering of the 3D station environment, using that image in its place.
First, even when the feature works fine, every release we have to make sure our QA team schedules a task to verify that it still works. We do this for every feature in the settings. Second, certain recent changes (I'm not sure exactly which ones, but I believe they were related to the new, unreleased hangar environments for citadels) broke this feature internally. This particular feature had broken before in the recent past, and each time this happens, we must allocate developer time to investigate and fix the issue. Finally, we have an ongoing problem (and I'm pretty sure you've noticed it too) that our settings menu is overloaded with choices, many of which are hard to describe in a tooltip or a few-word name. It's easy to add settings and harder (particularly when players depend on them) to remove them. So, we're trying to manage our settings more closely and not just leave them there because they've been there for a long time. In this instance, we're very sure (because we repeatedly check) that our normal hangar environment performs acceptably on "low" settings on a machine that meets our minimum specification. We also have data that lets us know how many people enable this particular setting, and it's not many. (Sorry, I don't know the exact percentage.)
If you're struggling with performance with a single client, I would first try turning the settings all the way down on that machine, if you haven't already, and see how far that gets you. If it's still problematic, turning on Interval 1 and lowering screen resolution may also help.
If you are finding there's a significant performance drop for your foreground Eve client with entirely minimized clients running in the background, this may be a bug, and I suggest using the in-game bug report tool ("Report Bug" on the F12 menu) to report it.
I think we can all understand that. Or at least those willing to understand it, they will. But I'd like to throw a different and yet related wrench at that argument.
Years ago when I started playing EVE, the system reuirements were incredibly low even by the standards of the time and by comparison with other PC games. That was one of the reasons that led me to keep on playing EVE back then, to be honest. I would often log on using an ASUS eee notebook to update my skill queue on the go and take care of a few corp management things. Then the changes on the shader were implemented and it seems to me that was the point when EVE took a slightly different path to flashier and fancier graphics that started demanding higher computer requirements, on par of most other computer games.
This is not a bad thing by itself, but everytime you implement changes that increase the minimum system requirements, be it shaders, or the upcoming DX change, or this static station environment, you cut off a few percentage points off your player base. And you have even offered actual figures on that a few times, regarding the percentage of players that are using machines that won't meet every new requirements change.
And over time, with all those incremental changes, I do wonder the real weight that also has on your player base. Sure anough many such people will upgrade their hardware or buy a new computer. But not everyone can. We're still under the effect of a financial crisis and while the original intent behind PLEX was a different one, the data seems to point that not everyone can (or is at least willing) to spend real money to sub their accounts, much less invest on a new or renewed computer.
So I'd only suggest you consider that side as well and how many people and even new players from less common countries in the EVE universe, may be "locked out" of the game because of the computer they own. It could be that a better ballance between EVE graphic awesomeness and minimum system requirements to run the client could be found.
Or maybe not. It's just something that's been bothering me for a while so... there.
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CCP Darwin
C C P C C P Alliance
2011
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Posted - 2016.03.09 19:18:27 -
[22] - Quote
Thanks for your feedback.
We do have comprehensive data on the hardware and software configurations that people use to play Eve, and we use that information in deciding how to manage minimum specifications. We also performance test frequently on minimum-spec systems to make sure that the game remains playable.
Our minimum specification today (which has been in place since 2013, as I write this) corresponds to a typical gaming computer from mid-2007 for Windows or about 2010 for Mac, which is old enough that continued operating system support will soon start to be an issue for owners of those systems, and that can be an issue for us too, because our development tools must support operating systems that work on those computers as well.
We do not actively prevent Eve from running on computers that do not meet our minimum specification, so if your gameplay is of a style that's tolerant of performance that's below our standards, you may find that such a system continues to work for you after it's no longer supported. (Note, however, that occasionally we may make changes, such as our current plan to retire the old launcher June 30th, that affect Eve's software support for older operating systems. This is unavoidable.)
So take comfort that we don't make these decisions lightly, and if your favorite computer for playing Eve is adversely impacted by this change, I'm sorry, but I hope you can find an alternative that allows you to stick with us.
CCP Darwin GÇó Senior Technical Artist, EVE Online GÇó @mark_wilkins
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Obil Que
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
380
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Posted - 2016.03.09 19:43:03 -
[23] - Quote
Thanks for keeping up with the thread.
I will second the bobbing issue but for a different reason. I often will connect to my PC via TeamViewer to update things in EVE remotely or to keep up on chat, etc. as CEO. The bobbing of the ship in station is a very unnecessary change in the UI that slows down the remote interface significantly which is why I disabled it. It would be very nice if the camera bob feature was tied to the ship bobbing in the station. I can work around by having a 100% non-transparent window like the market covering the ship but it seems an odd work around. |
Daemun Khanid
Apollo Defence Industries
497
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Posted - 2016.03.09 22:41:26 -
[24] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:Thanks for keeping up with the thread.
I will second the bobbing issue but for a different reason. I often will connect to my PC via TeamViewer to update things in EVE remotely or to keep up on chat, etc. as CEO. The bobbing of the ship in station is a very unnecessary change in the UI that slows down the remote interface significantly which is why I disabled it. It would be very nice if the camera bob feature was tied to the ship bobbing in the station. I can work around by having a 100% non-transparent window like the market covering the ship but it seems an odd work around.
Currently I have my inventory window enlarged to cover the entire hanger but good news is that they've acknowledged it as a bug that is being fixed. According to CCP Turtlepower it's supposed to stop completely when the "camera bobbing" option is turned off.
Daemun of Khanid
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Dersen Lowery
The Scope
1775
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Posted - 2016.03.10 01:51:40 -
[25] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:Quote:(ps: this is with the Mac client, which has simultaneously become much better and much worse.) Are you referring to the new WINE option? If it's much worse in a way you can describe, please file bug reports about any issues you encounter!
So I went and selected the WINE option. There's a crashing issue, which I'm trying to get reproducible data about, but mostly: wow.
Objection withdrawn.
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
I voted in CSM X!
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Idame Isqua
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
23
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Posted - 2016.03.12 08:35:35 -
[26] - Quote
Here's an idea
How about having an option for nothing background related in station
I do not care that citadels broke it
All I want is a static station background I don't care what it looks like
I don't where you hide the option either it could be in Timbuktu or El Darado
Eve players are used to chasing mythical basic client settings and functions.
I don't think any of your reasons are acceptable.
If the static background is broken by Citadels Remove the static background
Following your own line of reasoning its not a key feature of the game used by everyone
But it is preferred by many
I think you will find most people who enabled this option couldn't care less if it didn't work in Citadels
But I for one would rather have a dead black station environment
than station spinning ad nauseous
Maybe even replace it with backgrounds from the eve client or something?
I find it strange you spend a lot of time on those but didn't think that would be a good idea?
God damit I want functionality! It is the Caldari way and you must accept it.
TL:DR If the static background was weird a created by nutters fix it by making it a truly static background or at minimum black Heck the bottom of the forums background is black, so why cant we have more back, maybe a shade of grey that would be really nice, mmmmmmmmmmmk |
pugal
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6
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Posted - 2016.03.16 03:43:46 -
[27] - Quote
I hope this doesn't mean we can't bypass CQ which is this games worst feature. |
Idame Isqua
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
24
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Posted - 2016.03.16 11:15:01 -
[28] - Quote
pugal wrote:I hope this doesn't mean we can't bypass CQ which is this games worst feature.
No it doesn't do that well not for me anyway thank bob |
Jeb Ashimura
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2016.03.24 00:34:31 -
[29] - Quote
Performance of the dynamic station interior is abysmal. The GPUs on my desktop PC and notebook are working overtime for no discernible benefit. Please bring back the static hangar view or a suitable replacement ASAP. |
Ziggy Starbust
Aestivalis Research
0
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Posted - 2016.04.02 13:31:45 -
[30] - Quote
Idame Isqua wrote:Here's an idea
How about having an option for nothing background related in station ... But I for one would rather have a dead black station environment
+1. An option to have a black, featureless, frugal background would work wonders. Maybe pass it on to the devs, so it could at least be considered?
Just disable all rendering and display nothing when docked... hopefully that won't break as often.
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