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Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
5708
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Posted - 2016.03.03 22:18:23 -
[31] - Quote
Lianara Dayton wrote:A further bit of advice that should be obvious but since you've got people in this thread seriously suggesting crap like Thermodynamics to 5 as a high priority for a new player (lol), I feel like it's a point worth making:
Generally it's inefficient to train skills to 5 unless they are required for some other skill you need or if you're attempting to really focus on a single aspect of a ship (or role) - and that will hardly be the case for a new player.
The reason for this is what's called diminishing returns: Lets take the skill Target Management as an example: this skill allows you to lock one additional target per skill level. Level 0-3 (+3 targets locked) takes roughly half as long to train as it does to increase the skill from 3 to 4. So you're roughly doubling the amount of additional training time for less then half the gain (+1 target locked) if you continue training it past level 3. Increasing the skill to 5 will take yet longer and still only yield +1 targets locked (but in this case having Target Management to 5 will allow you to train Advanced Target Management which will only take a very short amount of time to train to 3 (compared to the previous skill to 5) and will yield +3 targets locked so that's something to think about). So in this example, training the skill from 4 to 5 is still not as efficient as training the skill from 0 to 4 even including the redeeming fact that it will unlock the Advanced Target Management skill.
This logic holds true for virtually all skills: increasing your weapon damage by +8% (for example by training Small Autocannon Spec. from 0 to 4 for +2% damage per lelvel) will take less long then to increase it by the last 2% (Small Autocannon Spec. from 4 to 5 for the last +2% damage).
So in conclusion: only train skills to 5 when they serve to unlock new skills or when you're running out of other skills to train to 4.
So basically the last skill you'd want to prioritize as a new player would be something as silly as Thermodynamics to 5 (even 4 is very questionable if you're missing other important fitting skills to at least 4). That's not to say Thermodynamics to 5 isn't worth it... it is a great skill but training it to 5 is not worth it if you could have trained 15-20 other skills from 0 to 3 (or 5-7 skills to 4) during the same amount of time it would have taken you to get Thermodynamics from 4 to 5.
This is NOT completely true.
There are some skills that are so inherently powerful that training them to 5 very early in your career is essential even if you do not intend to use things which have that L5 as a prerequisite.
These skills are few and far between but they do exist.
The best example is Power Grid Management. The skill takes 4 days to get from 4 to 5 and offers an enormous power boost to every ship you fly now and into the future (some rare exceptions like freighters with nonstandard fiting)
Given the choice between training PGM from 4 to 5 or instead training all of High Speed Acceleration, Afterburners and Rapid Firing from 3 to 4, PGM will just offer more. And all of those skills are *good* skills to train to 4.
The shortlist of skills worth training to 5 ASAP (certainly before your character is 60 days old) are:
- Power Grid Management - CPU Management - Drones
I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
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Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
5708
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Posted - 2016.03.03 22:23:47 -
[32] - Quote
Droidster wrote:ergherhdfgh wrote:Droidster wrote: I would not recommend training up warp disruption the way others are suggesting. If the other guy warps off, consider that a victory. Focus on beating other people first; worry about killing them later.
OMFG! you have to be trolling on this one. There is no way that you are seriously telling the OP that the 18 minutes spent training propulsion jamming to level 1 would be wasted SP in PvP. Its not a matter of the training time, its the compromise to the fitting by filling a slot with a scrambler/disruptor.
Without a scrambler fitted, you can't win most fights, you can only draw in them. Suicide ganks are a counterexample (we don't usually fit a scram as our targets don't have time to align, but sometimes we do)
You shouldn't initiate a fight unless you feel you can win it.
I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
14516
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Posted - 2016.03.03 22:35:20 -
[33] - Quote
Droidster wrote:ergherhdfgh wrote:Droidster wrote: I would not recommend training up warp disruption the way others are suggesting. If the other guy warps off, consider that a victory. Focus on beating other people first; worry about killing them later.
OMFG! you have to be trolling on this one. There is no way that you are seriously telling the OP that the 18 minutes spent training propulsion jamming to level 1 would be wasted SP in PvP. Its not a matter of the training time, its the compromise to the fitting by filling a slot with a scrambler/disruptor. aside from all the other points reaised on the topic, scrams shut off mwd's ,thats sort of a big deal.
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Dark Lord Trump
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
5
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Posted - 2016.03.03 23:06:46 -
[34] - Quote
Droidster wrote:ergherhdfgh wrote:Droidster wrote: I would not recommend training up warp disruption the way others are suggesting. If the other guy warps off, consider that a victory. Focus on beating other people first; worry about killing them later.
OMFG! you have to be trolling on this one. There is no way that you are seriously telling the OP that the 18 minutes spent training propulsion jamming to level 1 would be wasted SP in PvP. Its not a matter of the training time, its the compromise to the fitting by filling a slot with a scrambler/disruptor. If your fitting is "compromised" by fitting a tackle module you are flying a failfit and will probably die regardless. SOMEONE needs to keep your target from warping off; if it's a fleet it doesn't necessarily have to be you, but someone has to tackle. Any solo ship MUST have a point or scram. The other guy escaping is not a win, he achieved his goal of not exploding, and you did not achieve your goal of exploding him and stealing his stuff.
I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!
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Mephiztopheleze
Republic University Minmatar Republic
532
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Posted - 2016.03.03 23:13:22 -
[35] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:Obviously neither TA5 nor Thermo 5 should be on anyone's radar as a newbie but someone (possibly trolling, possibly honestly believing it, I personally believe they were trolling as they suggest it often and have been conclusively proven wrong before) suggested Thermo 5 here.
I've never been 'proven wrong' on my opinion of Thermo V. I've had a bunch of people disagree with me, which is not the same thing. Yes it's a long'ish train. Yes there are a ton of things a newbro needs to train. I'm well aware of all of that.
And no, I wasn't trolling. Name me any other skill that can give you a ~20% bonus to an active module. For a newbro, that's especially HUGE.
Droidster wrote:Its not a matter of the training time, its the compromise to the fitting by filling a slot with a scrambler/disruptor.
I'd be extremely wary taking any PvP fitting advice from someone who doesn't PvP and who uses a RAIL Ishtar for ratting. (a rail Ishtar? full marks for marching to the beat of your own drum, but dude, REALLY?)
Adding a point isn't 'compromising' your fit. If it is, you either need to be in a fleet with some dedicated tackle boats or you need to seriously reconsider your fit.
In small-gang environments, almost every ship will have some sort of tackle mod. In the gang I often fly with, our logibro fits a disruptor to his Scalpel. You want to see Local Chat full of tears? Tackle someone's shiny T3 with a logi-frigate!
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1222
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Posted - 2016.03.04 00:01:32 -
[36] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote: Drone Interfacing (Prereq: Drones 5) - Amps up the damage your drones do
This realy doesn't help but a little history on this skill I find interesting.
So it was before my time but my understanding is that this skill originally gave you more drones just like the lower level version. To reduce the number of objects that the server had to keep track of and hopefully reduce the load on large fleet fights CCP changed it to increase drone damage and hitpoints by 20% per level. Effectively giving you 5 more drones without adding any actual moving objects to fleet fights.
Recently I noticed that it is a 10% increase to damage and mining with no HP boost anymore. They must have done that during the drone rebalancing where they made drone progression more linear.
Again not very helpful I understand but I found it interesting and felt like passing it on. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
5799
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Posted - 2016.03.04 00:07:04 -
[37] - Quote
For what it is worth:
Is there a consensus on what the core skills are? |
Cara Forelli
Meticulously Indifferent
1655
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Posted - 2016.03.04 00:14:08 -
[38] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:If you honestly think Thermo 5 and TA 4 is better than Thermo 4 and TA 5, you should learn the maths of how heat damage works.
I understand the math, although I do rely somewhat heavily on EFT for numbers and if you have a link to the actual formula I would be interested to see it. I have already given my view on it.
It seems when you evaluate the benefit of thermo 5 you only consider the case of continuously overheating the whole rack. While that is useful in ganking and frontloading situations (which I know you are quite familiar with), that's not the only use for overheating. A single heated invuln or hardener can make a huge difference in an active tanked ship and Thermo 5 makes a 20 second difference in heat life, which can be even further extended if you pulse it. A heated hardener can almost double your DPS tank, which is huge since it relieves pressure on your nanite consumption and cap life.
It may seem like an edge case but if you fly active tanked ships you will run in to it a lot. And it's not the only edge case. There are way more ships that benefit from Thermo 5 than TA5 (which is a nearly worthless skill I will probably never train).
Sabriz Adoudel wrote: Obviously neither TA5 nor Thermo 5 should be on anyone's radar as a newbie
Agreed.
Adventures
New player with questions? Join my public channel in game: House Forelli
Titan's Lament
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1223
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Posted - 2016.03.04 00:18:56 -
[39] - Quote
Lianara Dayton wrote: Generally it's inefficient to train skills to 5 unless they are required for some other skill you need or if you're attempting to really focus on a single aspect of a ship (or role) - and that will hardly be the case for a new player.
Sabriz Adoudel wrote: The shortlist of skills worth training to 5 ASAP (certainly before your character is 60 days old) are:
- Power Grid Management - CPU Management - Drones
All three of these skills that you list here have several skills in the "required for" list at level 5 on them. I hate to be nit picky to Sabriz who's advice is generally solid and still is here but I just wanted to point out that you and Lianara are really saying the same thing here. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1224
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Posted - 2016.03.04 00:30:31 -
[40] - Quote
Mephiztopheleze wrote: Name me any other skill that can give you a ~20% bonus to an active module. For a newbro, that's especially HUGE.
but thermo 5 does not do this. Thermo dynamics allows you to overheat. You can only overheat for a brief time before the module burns out so thermodynamics only allows you to get a very very short term boost. This is not the same thing as a skill that give you a flat 2% increase to damage at all times. 2% more damage means completeing missions faster and making more isk. It will also shorten your opponent's time in battle by more than 2% since that is less time for his shields to regen and less cycles on boosts to his tank be it local or remote.
Further not only is overheating in general very short term but it has been show that in many cases thermo 5 won't even get you one more cycle on a specific module over thermo 4.
For these reasons and more we could come up with a very long list of skills that would benefit a new player before thermo 5. Enough skills to fill up a queue for at least a year, at which point the player will no longer be a newbie and will be able to make informed decisions on his own.
So again I say that "train thermo 5 asap" is bad advice for a new player. |
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Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
807
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Posted - 2016.03.04 01:33:27 -
[41] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote:Sabriz Adoudel wrote: Drone Interfacing (Prereq: Drones 5) - Amps up the damage your drones do
This realy doesn't help but a little history on this skill I find interesting. So it was before my time but my understanding is that this skill originally gave you more drones just like the lower level version. To reduce the number of objects that the server had to keep track of and hopefully reduce the load on large fleet fights CCP changed it to increase drone damage and hitpoints by 20% per level. Effectively giving you 5 more drones without adding any actual moving objects to fleet fights. Recently I noticed that it is a 10% increase to damage and mining with no HP boost anymore. They must have done that during the drone rebalancing where they made drone progression more linear. Again not very helpful I understand but I found it interesting and felt like passing it on.
Yes. During the rebalance they supposedly buffed Drone damage to compensate for the reduced DIV effectiveness. Of course there was a Drone Nerf that followed when Drone ships became the preferred pvp ships. So I really don't know where drone damage falls now. Personally, I miss my 100% extra damage.
My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
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Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
5711
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Posted - 2016.03.04 01:48:32 -
[42] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote:Lianara Dayton wrote: Generally it's inefficient to train skills to 5 unless they are required for some other skill you need or if you're attempting to really focus on a single aspect of a ship (or role) - and that will hardly be the case for a new player.
Sabriz Adoudel wrote: The shortlist of skills worth training to 5 ASAP (certainly before your character is 60 days old) are:
- Power Grid Management - CPU Management - Drones
All three of these skills that you list here have several skills in the "required for" list at level 5 on them. I hate to be nit picky to Sabriz who's advice is generally solid and still is here but I just wanted to point out that you and Lianara are really saying the same thing here.
You should train these skills to 5 even if you have no short-term uses for the skills that they are prerequisites for (although with Drones, you'd get Drone Interfacing 3 almost for free and that is a huge boost too)
Most of the skills that require a 5 in PG Management and CPU Management are related to tech 2 production, not combat. Even a pilot with no intention of training those science skills should still get the 5 ASAP.
I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
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Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
5711
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Posted - 2016.03.04 01:55:31 -
[43] - Quote
Cara Forelli wrote:Sabriz Adoudel wrote:If you honestly think Thermo 5 and TA 4 is better than Thermo 4 and TA 5, you should learn the maths of how heat damage works.
I understand the math, although I do rely somewhat heavily on EFT for numbers and if you have a link to the actual formula I would be interested to see it. I have already given my view on it. It seems when you evaluate the benefit of thermo 5 you only consider the case of continuously overheating the whole rack. While that is useful in ganking and frontloading situations (which I know you are quite familiar with), that's not the only use for overheating. A single heated invuln or hardener can make a huge difference in an active tanked ship and Thermo 5 makes a 20 second difference in heat life, which can be even further extended if you pulse it. A heated hardener can almost double your DPS tank, which is huge since it relieves pressure on your nanite consumption and cap life. It may seem like an edge case but if you fly active tanked ships you will run in to it a lot. And it's not the only edge case. There are way more ships that benefit from Thermo 5 than TA5 (which is a nearly worthless skill I will probably never train). Sabriz Adoudel wrote: Obviously neither TA5 nor Thermo 5 should be on anyone's radar as a newbie
Agreed.
I don't just gank. Gankers should train Thermo 1 and leave it there as there is no difference between 1 and 5 for us.
In wardec situations I absolutely have made use of the sustained tank boost.
Additionally, I have done a lot of PVE (both for sec status and for trading reasons) and use overheating extensively in PVE and PVP. I've overheated guns, precision modules, tackle modules, prop modules, resist modules, cap injectors, active local reppers and active remote reppers at various times. Sometimes module by module, sometimes the entire rack.
In all of these situations, 5% less heat damage is not a lot, because average damage is based upon an integral of rack heat with respect to time, and rack heat is an integral of a function of the number and type of modules you have overheating with respect to time. This makes heat damage quadratic in time (and linear in the number of overheated modules), and so each 5% you reduce heat damage only increases time by about 2.5%.
Not meaningless, but not significant.
TL:DR - Get Thermo 1 ASAP because it's one of the biggest power boosts in the game. 2 and 3 are an OK use of skillpoints. 4 and 5 can wait.
I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
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Zeric Aurilen
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2016.03.04 13:23:56 -
[44] - Quote
Excellent info, thank you everyone for the replies! I'm going through the info and right now am learning towards PGM since my CPU Management is already at 5. |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
11088
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Posted - 2016.03.04 20:39:52 -
[45] - Quote
PVP Must-have: Strap Droidster and Dryson Bennington to the front of your ship, each equipped with head-mounted computers, and destroy your opponents with their stream-of-consciousness ****** trollery
Got a HoleySheet1 corpse? I'll buy it for 200m!
Bumble's Space Log
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Azda Ja
Meticulously Indifferent
4922
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Posted - 2016.03.04 20:49:19 -
[46] - Quote
Bumblefck wrote:PVP Must-have: Strap Droidster and Dryson Bennington to the front of your ship, each equipped with head-mounted computers, and destroy your opponents with their stream-of-consciousness ****** trollery CCPlz nerf!
Grrr.
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Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
11089
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Posted - 2016.03.04 21:12:05 -
[47] - Quote
It's completely overpowered - I destroyed not only every pod in Jita with it, but I also caused a whole EVE node to burst into flames!!!1!!11!
Got a HoleySheet1 corpse? I'll buy it for 200m!
Bumble's Space Log
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
9661
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Posted - 2016.03.05 02:46:24 -
[48] - Quote
Bumblefck wrote:It's completely overpowered - I destroyed not only every pod in Jita with it, but I also caused a whole EVE node to burst into flames!!!1!!11! It's the rage. All that heat from the anger has to go somewhere!
For context to all the newbros reading this (hoping to glean any relevant info you can):
Droidster: a player who defines what it is to be a "noob." He asks for advice, completely ignores it (or argues against it because he "can't comprehend why people would do something THAT way"), and then gives questionable advice.
Dryson Bennington: a class "A" troll who knows exactly how to get the forum regulars riled up. He will often post semi-insane ideas with a hint of "hey, that actually makes sense" thrown in. Do not be seduced by his ways. It is the path to the darkness.
How did you Veterans start?
"Learn how things work. The intricacies, interactions, and hard limits... knowing these things will grant you far more power in the long run."
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
14530
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Posted - 2016.03.05 02:52:42 -
[49] - Quote
Dryson Bennington has ideas that are based just enough in reality for their madness to have all the more impact.
hes a glorious poster and i relish reading his oddness.
has no patch on Dinsdale Piranha ( o7 )
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
9662
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Posted - 2016.03.05 03:04:59 -
[50] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:has no patch on Dinsdale Piranha ( o7 ) Probably because Dinsdale was an honest to god conspiracy theorist.
There is nothing more entertaining (and dangerous) than someone who drinks their own kool aid like a thirsty horse in a desert.
How did you Veterans start?
"Learn how things work. The intricacies, interactions, and hard limits... knowing these things will grant you far more power in the long run."
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Cara Forelli
Meticulously Indifferent
1655
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Posted - 2016.03.05 04:19:28 -
[51] - Quote
I miss Neville. His avatar was so punchable.
Adventures
New player with questions? Join my public channel in game: House Forelli
Titan's Lament
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Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
5713
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Posted - 2016.03.07 00:31:27 -
[52] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Dryson Bennington has ideas that are based just enough in reality for their madness to have all the more impact.
hes a glorious poster and i relish reading his oddness.
has no patch on Dinsdale Piranha ( o7 )
Dinsdale was a classic.
I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
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Lulu Lunette
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
305
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Posted - 2016.03.08 03:33:48 -
[53] - Quote
I think generally the most important thing is to not get discouraged. Someone could just link you like a Slasher fit. It's got an afterburner and a shield extender and a scram and a TD.
What do you know that it can engage really well? Not so well? The trouble with learning PVP in this game doesn't stop just here either. And the classes (the fights) especially in Frigates and Dessies can be 5-20 seconds long and perhaps few and far between.
There's not really any one skill ingame I would say is most important. Don't loaf around waiting for level V skills it's overrated
@lunettelulu7
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ISD Chanisa Nemes
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
8
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Posted - 2016.03.08 03:51:49 -
[54] - Quote
Lulu Lunette wrote: Don't loaf around waiting for level V skills it's overrated
I definitely agree with this. I had a friend who would only fly a ship once he had all the skills related to it completely maxed out. He ended up missing out on a lot of opportunities for fights because of that stubbornness. SP is important... but you gain more from this game by just jumping in and flying.
ISD Chanisa Nemes
Ensign
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1232
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Posted - 2016.03.08 12:00:49 -
[55] - Quote
ISD Chanisa Nemes wrote:Lulu Lunette wrote: Don't loaf around waiting for level V skills it's overrated
I definitely agree with this. I had a friend who would only fly a ship once he had all the skills related to it completely maxed out. He ended up missing out on a lot of opportunities for fights because of that stubbornness. SP is important... but you gain more from this game by just jumping in and flying. This is a playstyle that is taught to them by other games with level caps and gear progression.
To me it is more than just a matter of them missing out on content by not being able to make the mental adjustment from "gear" and "level's" which in those games are all important to "skill points" and "modules" which in this game are only a part of things. To me it is a sign that the player does not understand this game and is not going to make it too long if they can't let go of the expectations that they bring from other games and play Eve as if it were a different game rather than just playing it as if it were another WoW clone.
If they can not make that mental adjustment then they will wait for skills to train just like they did in the other games with level caps and then go get expensive ships and modules, just like they did in games with gear progression and then go out and try and learn PvP just like they did in games with a respawn mechanic in a structured and balanced PvP arena. Of course none of those tactics will work out well in this game and they will get frustrated and leave.
This is why I tell players that appear to me to be stuck in their WoW clone programming to either play Eve as if it were Eve or just leave and look for another WoW clone because waiting for skills to train won't work out well here. |
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