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Aaron Honk
Distributed Denial of Service
3
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Posted - 2016.03.09 19:05:48 -
[1] - Quote
Taken from reddit (thanks for ignoring the forums again btw )
Quote: Alright here is an update on citadel services based on reprocessing comments we received from previous blog and this [thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/48s4p1/planned_changes_to_npc_citadel_taxes_and_services/).
* **Transaction fee:** increased from 1.5% to 2.5% in all NPC stations and player structures. * **Brokers' fee:** increased to 5% in NPC stations. * **Broker's fee formula with skills and standings:** currently with max skills and NPC standings you can reduce the brokers' fee by 0.7-0.8%. We will modify skills and standings to decrease the tax by 1.5% and also change them from being percentage based to a flat reduction.
**So brokers' fee formula becomes:** 5% brokers fee - ([Broker Relation skill level]*0.2 + [Faction Standing level]*0.03 + [Corp Standing level]*0.02)
Minimum brokers' fee in NPC stations becomes 3.5% with skill and standings maxed. Please note there is no NPC brokers' fee in Citadels structures, but you'll have to deal with what the owner charges you. Skill won't work for player-set brokers' fee either.
* **Cloning fee:** decreased from 5m ISK to install or leave a clone behind to 900,000 ISK * **Reprocessing:** changed how reprocessing rigs work to mirror more closely other structure rigs. Other structure rigs give you the same bonuses no matter the structure size, but you gain move coverage as you move up. So for example a Medium Citadel Missile Rig will only give you an application bonus to structure single target missiles, while a X-Large Citadel Rig will give you a missile application and projection bonus not only to single target missiles but to the guided bombs as well.
With that in mind, base reprocessing yield of the reprocessing service: 50% (also includes compression free of charge)
All of the rigs below give the same bonuses: Tech I rigs will give 52% if the structure is in high-sec, 55% otherwise. Tech II rigs below will give 55% if the structure is in high-sec, 60% otherwise.
**Medium rigs (only apply to Astrahus):**
* Tech I and II rigs that applies for high-sec ores: Veldspar, Scordite, Pyroxeres, Omber, Kernite and all variants. * Tech I and II rigs that applies for all other ores: Arkonor, Bistot, Crokite, Dark Ochre, Gneiss, Mercoxit, Spodumain, Hedbergite, Hemorphite, Jaspet and all variants. * Tech I and II rigs that applies for: Clear Icicle, Enriched Clear Icicle, White Glaze, Pristine White Glaze, Dark Glitter and Gelidus * Tech I and II rigs that applies for: Blue Ice, Thick Blue Ice, Glacial Mass, Smooth Glacial Mass, Glare Crust, Krystallos.
**Large rigs (only apply to Fortizar):**
* Tech I and II rigs that applies for all ores. * Tech I and II rigs that applies for all ices.
**X-Large rig (only applies for Keepstar):**
* Tech I and II rigs that applies for all ore and ices.
And that should cover everything. Please keep in mind this is still WIP and subject to change based on constructive feedback.
so a bump from ~0.25% to ~3.55% broker and 0.75% to 1.5% taxes |
Makeleth Riatu Solette
I Want ISK Corp
6
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Posted - 2016.03.09 19:28:31 -
[2] - Quote
Link to OP of this?
Need a loan? Look at my thread!
Mail me if you'd like some marketing advice or advice in general
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Aaron Honk
Distributed Denial of Service
4
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Posted - 2016.03.09 19:38:20 -
[3] - Quote
sorry sorry I should have linked that
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/49p3la/update_on_structure_services/ |
Cista2
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
208
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Posted - 2016.03.09 19:47:04 -
[4] - Quote
Crazy times.
My channel: "Signatures"
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Recommended: "The Biomass Bar" (for corpse selling)
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Aaron Honk
Distributed Denial of Service
5
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Posted - 2016.03.09 19:56:07 -
[5] - Quote
Cista2 wrote:Crazy times.
I'm pretty sure we can adapt, but it will be a landslide on day 0 |
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
5720
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Posted - 2016.03.09 21:04:38 -
[6] - Quote
This is going to be an absolute wrecking ball to the PLEX economy.
I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
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Makeleth Riatu Solette
I Want ISK Corp
6
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Posted - 2016.03.09 21:15:08 -
[7] - Quote
I'll just write here what I wrote there:
Quote:CCP, the drastic increase of the brokerage and transaction tax is ridiculous, and at least half the community agrees. Newly proposed increase: Brokerage tax: 3.5% Transaction Tax: 2%
Need a loan? Look at my thread!
Mail me if you'd like some marketing advice or advice in general
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Aaron Honk
Distributed Denial of Service
6
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Posted - 2016.03.09 21:43:48 -
[8] - Quote
Makeleth Riatu Solette wrote:I'll just write here what I wrote there: Quote:CCP, the drastic increase of the brokerage and transaction tax is ridiculous, and at least half the community agrees. Newly proposed increase: Brokerage tax: 3.5% Transaction Tax: 2%
What makes it even more ridiculous is the change in the broker fee formula, from an elliptic curve to a linear curve... |
Moac Tor
Cyber Core Stain Confederation
456
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Posted - 2016.03.09 23:08:22 -
[9] - Quote
This is also in the official forums - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6384247#post6384247
My thoughts on this are that this is not good at all for the high sec trader/manufacturer:
Moac Tor wrote:With a tax this high you can say goodbye to Jita 4-4. NPC trading just won't be competitive with the NPC taking an almost 5% cut of every trade order. Once a solid alliance gets a hub setup they can trade there with taxes as low as 1.25%.
I think citadels should have an advantage but I think this is too much. NPC stations shouldn't become completely unviable.
(also if said alliance can set taxes based upon specific groups then they can effectively lock down an entire regional market - this is hypothetical at the moment although would be the logical next step)
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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Cista2
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
208
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Posted - 2016.03.10 00:24:08 -
[10] - Quote
I wonder, will we see more trade take place on contracts and on the forum? (avoiding 5% fees). I have seen that in other games where fees are obnoxiously high.
What kind of items ?
My channel: "Signatures"
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Recommended: "The Biomass Bar" (for corpse selling)
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Makeleth Riatu Solette
I Want ISK Corp
6
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Posted - 2016.03.10 00:27:21 -
[11] - Quote
Cista2 wrote:I wonder, will we see more trade take place on contracts and on the forum? (avoiding 5% fees). I have seen that in other games where fees are obnoxiously high.
What kind of items ?
Things of tight margins, where the bid and ask are stable and do not deviate far from each other.
Need a loan? Look at my thread!
Mail me if you'd like some marketing advice or advice in general
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Ria Nieyli
41674
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Posted - 2016.03.10 04:11:16 -
[12] - Quote
3.5% broker fee at max standings what the... It seems that they really want to make people use citadels. If you're currently at 0.25% broker fee or less, the only way for you to not get ripped right off the bat is to move to a citadel market. Good luck. |
Amarrchecko
Hedion University Amarr Empire
98
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Posted - 2016.03.10 15:15:35 -
[13] - Quote
Ria Nieyli wrote:Setting the minimum fees to 3.5% would mean that those fees would increase 14 times, as a conservative estimate. Damage: ~82 trillion ISK..
How is that a "conservative estimate?" |
Ria Nieyli
41695
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Posted - 2016.03.10 15:20:10 -
[14] - Quote
I have a 0.1882% broker fee right now, with the proposed changes they'd turn into 3.5012% That's a 18.6 times increase. By conservative estimate, I meant that a 14 times increase is lower than what people would actually get in many cases. |
Scotsman Howard
S0utherN Comfort Circle-Of-Two
59
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Posted - 2016.03.10 15:43:13 -
[15] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:This is also in the official forums - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6384247#post6384247My thoughts on this are that this is not good at all for the high sec trader/manufacturer: Moac Tor wrote:With a tax this high you can say goodbye to Jita 4-4. NPC trading just won't be competitive with the NPC taking an almost 5% cut of every trade order. Once a solid alliance gets a hub setup they can trade there with taxes as low as 1.25%.
I think citadels should have an advantage but I think this is too much. NPC stations shouldn't become completely unviable.
(also if said alliance can set taxes based upon specific groups then they can effectively lock down an entire regional market - this is hypothetical at the moment although would be the logical next step)
People will not move Jita 4-4 to a citadel. Why?
1. It is destructable, so the time and energy to remake market orders and the waiting period to get your stuff moved will not be worth it.
2. Unless it is Cribba or someone truely trusted, why would people risk putting their stuff in a place where it can be deadzoned on a whim.
What is more than likely going to happen is prices all over Eve will rise about about 3-5% to compensate. It does not matter if a citadel puts its taxes to 0% in null because 99% of everything in the game has its value based on Jita price. Raise the price there, you raise it everywhere. |
Moac Tor
Cyber Core Stain Confederation
459
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Posted - 2016.03.10 22:00:43 -
[16] - Quote
Scotsman Howard wrote:Moac Tor wrote:This is also in the official forums - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6384247#post6384247My thoughts on this are that this is not good at all for the high sec trader/manufacturer: Moac Tor wrote:With a tax this high you can say goodbye to Jita 4-4. NPC trading just won't be competitive with the NPC taking an almost 5% cut of every trade order. Once a solid alliance gets a hub setup they can trade there with taxes as low as 1.25%.
I think citadels should have an advantage but I think this is too much. NPC stations shouldn't become completely unviable.
(also if said alliance can set taxes based upon specific groups then they can effectively lock down an entire regional market - this is hypothetical at the moment although would be the logical next step) People will not move Jita 4-4 to a citadel. Why? 1. It is destructable, so the time and energy to remake market orders and the waiting period to get your stuff moved will not be worth it. 2. Unless it is Cribba or someone truely trusted, why would people risk putting their stuff in a place where it can be deadzoned on a whim. What is more than likely going to happen is prices all over Eve will rise about about 3-5% to compensate. It does not matter if a citadel puts its taxes to 0% in null because 99% of everything in the game has its value based on Jita price. Raise the price there, you raise it everywhere. Your not thinking outside the box. I would have agreed if the rise in tax was around 3% max, but at 4.75% your definitely in a place where any serious trader will have to consider a citadel.
In high sec your not losing anything using a citadel except for having to relist your orders, which isn't a big deal compared to how much you'll save in the reduced taxes.
Also your not considering how much ISK a big alliance can make out of controlling a hub, it will be more valuable by many multitudes than any moon that currently exists; do you think any alliance would deadzone or screw over their biggest customers with how much would be at stake?
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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u3pog
Ministerstvo na otbranata
735
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Posted - 2016.03.10 22:06:13 -
[17] - Quote
After seeing those numbers I am not so sure all traders will stay in Jita...3.5% broker fee + 1.25% transaction tax (max skills + standings), that's near 5%, 4,75 to be exact, opposed to 0,94% at the moment. Prices might adjust a little bit, but that will make profit even better in citadels. Good thing I've nothing to pack. The clock is ticking. |
Ria Nieyli
41700
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Posted - 2016.03.11 02:23:58 -
[18] - Quote
I'm not sure that they'll move. Building and deploying a citadel will take time. So you have to get one up, online the market module, then start advertising it and wait as people start to trickle in. Meanwhile in Jita, traders would simply adjust their orders to pass the new cost to their customers. There's a huge amount of inertia in market hubs. Breaking them up will not be as simple as raising a tax. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
5721
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Posted - 2016.03.11 06:39:57 -
[19] - Quote
u3pog wrote:After seeing those numbers I am not so sure all traders will stay in Jita...3.5% broker fee + 1.25% transaction tax (max skills + standings), that's near 5%, 4,75 to be exact, opposed to 0,94% at the moment. Prices might adjust a little bit, but that will make profit even better in citadels. Good thing I've nothing to pack. The clock is ticking.
Some things will have to move. PLEX in particular, unless PLEX trade is entirely confined to contracts in the future.
You simply cannot flip PLEX with a ~3.7% broker fee paid on every buy order and every sell order.
Edit: Other stuff won't move. Noone is moving stacks of, say, 20000 Brutix hulls.
I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
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Ria Nieyli
41701
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Posted - 2016.03.11 07:07:04 -
[20] - Quote
Why wouldn't you be able to flip PLEX with that broker fee? Bad at maths? Moreover, how are you going to entice people to come shop in your citadel when it lacks the volume and variety that regular trade hubs have right now? |
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1293
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Posted - 2016.03.11 07:38:45 -
[21] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:Some things will have to move. PLEX in particular, unless PLEX trade is entirely confined to contracts in the future. They'll put contract fees up too, once they've added contracts to citadels.
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:You simply cannot flip PLEX with a ~3.7% broker fee paid on every buy order and every sell order. You also cannot flip PLEX in a Citadel with no suppliers or customers. If the people stay at 4-4, the PLEX market will stay at 4-4 and the price will be what the price will be.
Remember that these Citadels are going to be largely inferior to NPC stations, at least at release. Jita 4-4 has had competition from NPC stations that are strictly superior to it for many, many years. Jita has a critical mass and inertia so great that it will take a titan's blow to shift it.
I don't think CCP should attempt to strike that blow, because they'll probably ruin the game in the process. I think they should give us the tools so that resourceful player organisations can strike it for them. That's excellent sandbox content, not massive nerfs from on high.
Sadly, it's going to take a long, long time for them to release the necessary tools, because that work is hard. They can make Citadels such a well produced, refined and feature rich creation that NPC stations become a legacy relic by comparison. With a carrot that sweet, the stick is really not needed.
Unfortunately, it's going to take far, far less time and effort for them to massively nerf NPC stations instead.
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erg cz
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
415
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Posted - 2016.03.11 08:27:56 -
[22] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote: Jita has a critical mass and inertia so great that it will take a titan's blow to shift it.
I don't think CCP should attempt to strike that blow, because they'll probably ruin the game in the process. I think they should give us the tools so that resourceful player organisations can strike it for them. That's excellent sandbox content, not massive nerfs from on high.
Faction warfare will be seriosly changed. Instead of 2 vs 2 it will become 4 vs 4. So I believe some systems between Amarr and Caldari and between Gallente and Minmatar will switch to be FW war zones. Jita is so close to Gallente Border Zone constallation, that it is quite simple to include Jita into new low sec faction warfare zone.
Both Gallente Border Zone constallation and Kimotoro (where Jita is placed) can become new FW zones and that will effectively blow Jita as "one hub to rule them all". Simple , effective, not breaking any game mechanics and ridiculously strong kick to the game PVP activity, cause moving all that stuff out will make gankers so happy...
Absolutely free trial extension. Just click the link and get your extra week of Eve for free!
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Mad Abbat
Talon Swarm
71
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Posted - 2016.03.11 14:41:33 -
[23] - Quote
How is watching tides of JF jumping in and out make gankers happy? Code will ne destroyed by this, lol. Os as your dreams. N00b |
Jay Aaron
M-Spec Industrial Resources Ltd Agents of Fortune
6
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Posted - 2016.03.11 16:30:10 -
[24] - Quote
NPC markets, Jita in particular, will adapt to this by moving to wider bid/asked spreads swiftly and efficiently. Nothing more than a tidy little ISK sink. It might make the business of exporting to Citadels a bit more lucrative than what otherwise would have been.
The worst part of this will be having to grind standings for several trade alts to help overcome the more significant fees.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4793
|
Posted - 2016.03.12 05:19:45 -
[25] - Quote
Scotsman Howard wrote:
What is more than likely going to happen is prices all over Eve will rise about about 3-5% to compensate.
Nope. They may rise, but unless every item in the game is perfectly inelastic in terms of its price elasticity of demand it won't be that high.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4793
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Posted - 2016.03.12 05:21:07 -
[26] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Sabriz Adoudel wrote:Some things will have to move. PLEX in particular, unless PLEX trade is entirely confined to contracts in the future. They'll put contract fees up too, once they've added contracts to citadels. Sabriz Adoudel wrote:You simply cannot flip PLEX with a ~3.7% broker fee paid on every buy order and every sell order. You also cannot flip PLEX in a Citadel with no suppliers or customers. If the people stay at 4-4, the PLEX market will stay at 4-4 and the price will be what the price will be. Remember that these Citadels are going to be largely inferior to NPC stations, at least at release. Jita 4-4 has had competition from NPC stations that are strictly superior to it for many, many years. Jita has a critical mass and inertia so great that it will take a titan's blow to shift it. I don't think CCP should attempt to strike that blow, because they'll probably ruin the game in the process. I think they should give us the tools so that resourceful player organisations can strike it for them. That's excellent sandbox content, not massive nerfs from on high. Sadly, it's going to take a long, long time for them to release the necessary tools, because that work is hard. They can make Citadels such a well produced, refined and feature rich creation that NPC stations become a legacy relic by comparison. With a carrot that sweet, the stick is really not needed. Unfortunately, it's going to take far, far less time and effort for them to massively nerf NPC stations instead.
Also, remember....not citadels in Jita. Nor Amarr, IIRC.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Aaron Honk
Distributed Denial of Service
10
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Posted - 2016.03.12 08:07:27 -
[27] - Quote
Jay Aaron wrote:NPC markets, Jita in particular, will adapt to this by moving to wider bid/asked spreads swiftly and efficiently. Nothing more than a tidy little ISK sink. It might make the business of exporting to Citadels a bit more lucrative than what otherwise would have been.
The worst part of this will be having to grind standings for several trade alts to help overcome the more significant fees.
Standing are useless now. there is no point grinding them, here is my reasoning:
Before standings would decrease the broker fee from 0.75% to (maximum) 0.1875%, but more realistically 0.25% for 8 to 9 standings, that's 3x times less broker fee. now the formula is different, it reduces the fee from 4% to 3.55% with 9 standings, that's only a 11% decrease.
So, to me, there is no point grinding standing up to 8 or 9, it's too hard and there is no reward for it. |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
834
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Posted - 2016.03.12 13:07:42 -
[28] - Quote
Aaron Honk wrote:
Standing are useless now. there is no point grinding them, here is my reasoning:
Before standings would decrease the broker fee from 0.75% to (maximum) 0.1875%, but more realistically 0.25% for 8 to 9 standings, that's 3x times less broker fee. now the formula is different, it reduces the fee from 4% to 3.55% with 9 standings, that's only a 11% decrease.
So, to me, there is no point grinding standing up to 8 or 9, it's too hard and there is no reward for it.
But all you competition will have them, it just means that you'll have to trade more to earn your money back.
WTS ME 10 TE 20 BPOs & BPO Packs
WTS Collectible Large Rigged Small/Medium Ships
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Marcus Tedric
Zebra Corp Goonswarm Federation
60
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Posted - 2016.03.12 15:54:52 -
[29] - Quote
At last some sensible comments.....
The market fees have been at least 1/10th of what they should have been for 13 years - at last an adjustment is happening.
Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2291
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Posted - 2016.03.13 09:49:02 -
[30] - Quote
Marcus Tedric wrote:At last some sensible comments.....
The market fees have been at least 1/10th of what they should have been for 13 years - at last an adjustment is happening. Why?
A liquid market and big trade volumes with small spreads is ten times more desirable for a healthy economy than an ISK sink. Spreads shall be defined by supply and demand and not be dominated by fees.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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