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Skarner Kondur
Ricturn Resources
0
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Posted - 2016.03.11 19:00:49 -
[1] - Quote
I was going to link some seriously concerning screenshots. Unfortunately, I realized after about a dozen screenshots that EVE Online isn't captured using the print screen button; all the windows behind it are.
The community consensus on Project Discovery often demonstrates that there are two groups of negative influence on the new feature: players who need to do more training, and players who seemingly can't even see the sample. The most concerning part about this is that they seem to make up a huge portion of participants. As someone who is personally familiar with examining samples like these, I understand why some may be challenging. However, the magnitude of inaccuracy that some of the consensus has is ridiculous.
Examples: - Samples that have no green stains being marked as anything other than lack of green staining - Different cytoskeletons being mixed up - Microtubules not being picked even though it explicitly refers to the unique perfect yellow colour - Cytoplasm being confused with vesicles - Cell to cell variations being completely overlooked
Those are just a few of the worst examples, out of the many that I witnessed. |
Poddington Bare
Angur Therapy
293
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Posted - 2016.03.11 19:23:36 -
[2] - Quote
You know...it's almost like people are just spammin' the butan to receive bacon... |
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore
13799
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Posted - 2016.03.11 19:37:51 -
[3] - Quote
Yep, the barrier to entry to project Discover is WAY too low, people should have to really want to participate (and show some aptitude) to gain access.
The whole "get rewards for falling" thing is , imo, beyond stupid (smacks of 'millennial' thinking if you ask me). It's like the developers never met an EVE Online player before... |
DaReaper
Net 7
2801
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Posted - 2016.03.11 19:58:17 -
[4] - Quote
this is why they have a community consensus and then why they have people to doube check once there is a consensus. in theory this will eventually weed out bad samples
OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!
Yes i am optimistic about eve.. i'm giving it till dec 31st 2016 before i doom n gloom
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Ibutho Inkosi
Irubo Kovu
246
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Posted - 2016.03.11 20:23:26 -
[5] - Quote
Maybe subsidize me for not doing it? Color blind people might have trouble with something as specific as this seems to be. There are tests for that. I think they're studying your behavior anyway, and not protoplasma. They're doing the Pavlovian thing to you. They'd have to pay me real money to experiment on me!
As long as the tale of the hunt is told by the hunter, and not the lion, it will favor the hunter.
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pushdogg
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
77
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Posted - 2016.03.11 20:28:14 -
[6] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Yep, the barrier to entry to project Discover is WAY too low, people should have to really want to participate (and show some aptitude) to gain access.
The whole "get rewards for falling" thing is , imo, beyond stupid (smacks of 'millennial' thinking if you ask me). It's like the developers never met an EVE Online player before...
Confirming millennials reward mediocrity.
I haven't been able to log in and try this, I will not say I'm a genius....but I am a bit of an intellectual, and I can see from feedback this will be an exercise in frustration. |
Memphis Baas
1322
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Posted - 2016.03.11 23:02:54 -
[7] - Quote
Why would they be frustrated?
Maybe they're just using us to reduce their 150,000+ sample size down to something more manageable, by having us monkeys eliminate the easy-to-guess samples through luck or random clicking or whatever.
They can easily remove all the percentages and send the samples back to us again, for a second round of guessing, see if we reach the same consensus as before.
They can also change the game to "do you agree with this consensus", sending us the samples where we can see the chosen percentages and just x out what we think is not correct. They can have the high accuracy people verify or correct the crowd choices.
Basically, there are statistical manipulations that they can apply to the results; don't assume it's "one choice and that's final".
Also, they certainly haven't thrown a lot of money or hardware at it, if their server is overwhelmed at 1000 hits / minute serving 800x600 jpegs (it's probably just a basic cable internet / 5 meg connection and a basic server). Low cost, low expectations, no frustrations. |
pushdogg
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
77
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Posted - 2016.03.11 23:08:55 -
[8] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Why would they be frustrated?
Maybe they're just using us to reduce their 150,000+ sample size down to something more manageable, by having us monkeys eliminate the easy-to-guess samples through luck or random clicking or whatever.
They can easily remove all the percentages and send the samples back to us again, for a second round of guessing, see if we reach the same consensus as before.
They can also change the game to "do you agree with this consensus", sending us the samples where we can see the chosen percentages and just x out what we think is not correct. They can have the high accuracy people verify or correct the crowd choices.
Basically, there are statistical manipulations that they can apply to the results; don't assume it's "one choice and that's final".
Also, they certainly haven't thrown a lot of money or hardware at it, if their server is overwhelmed at 1000 hits / minute serving 800x600 jpegs (it's probably just a basic cable internet / 5 meg connection and a basic server). Low cost, low expectations, no frustrations.
Frustration in the fact that if something is percieved to be correct but then you are told its wrong.
No matter what argument is you give, im pretty confident that this is being treated like the hacking mini game....and just mashing buttons till the treat comes out. |
Chopper Rollins
Lantean Empire
1269
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Posted - 2016.03.11 23:31:52 -
[9] - Quote
pushdogg wrote: Confirming millennials reward mediocrity.
I haven't been able to log in and try this, I will not say I'm a genius....but I am a bit of an intellectual, and I can see from feedback this will be an exercise in frustration.
The so-called millennial attitude was created by a drive to reward effort of any kind at the expense of pure competetive dominance. Yeah it's gone a bit far in some areas but competitive people obsessed with dominance and elitism don't often get jobs as teachers of the young do they? Human societies enforce mediocrity. Oh, you haven't tried this...and you say you're an intellectual? Damn son.
Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
2364
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Posted - 2016.03.12 01:35:30 -
[10] - Quote
If they find that the results are useless they will change the game until it works. We should not forget that this is pretty new ground here and they will have to figure out how tho do this first and this is part of that process.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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gfldex
755
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Posted - 2016.03.12 02:53:59 -
[11] - Quote
The EVE Online player base is presented with a system that can be gamed. What do you think is bound to happen?
If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
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pushdogg
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
79
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Posted - 2016.03.12 03:36:41 -
[12] - Quote
Chopper Rollins wrote:pushdogg wrote: Confirming millennials reward mediocrity.
I haven't been able to log in and try this, I will not say I'm a genius....but I am a bit of an intellectual, and I can see from feedback this will be an exercise in frustration.
The so-called millennial attitude was created by a drive to reward effort of any kind at the expense of pure competetive dominance. Yeah it's gone a bit far in some areas but competitive people obsessed with dominance and elitism don't often get jobs as teachers of the young do they? Human societies enforce mediocrity.Oh, you haven't tried this...and you say you're an intellectual? Damn son.
Since we have a small viewpoint discrepancy I will bite. Teachers of the young have had to be so PC that children of today(read: millennials) are coddled rather than rules and strong moral viewpoints being enforced. Parents in a litigation happy society also help push this coddling to new heights.
Hence any sort of elitism is left to the parents, who really are too busy with their own crap to even care what their kids are doing.
I don't have to play the game to make an educated assumption based on the feedback of the "intellectuals" of our community.
There....mini game is a treat button driven by mediocrity. And backed up with a strong opinion loosely based in the 20th century.
Son.
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Drossk Kalkoken
Makers Corporation
0
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Posted - 2016.03.12 05:05:28 -
[13] - Quote
IRL biologist checking in:
My accuracy is hovering around 62% because ~35% of the time the "community consensus" is WRONG.
This has nothing to do with the oft-maligned millennials. You're essentially paying people who had 15 minutes of training to do a task that requires a bachelor's degree to really be done properly. The players are taking the money and running. Humans are opportunists by nature and if you give them a reward for doing practically nothing, they are going to take it. |
Galaxxis
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
5
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Posted - 2016.03.13 04:54:44 -
[14] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:If they find that the results are useless they will change the game until it works. We should not forget that this is pretty new ground here and they will have to figure out how tho do this first and this is part of that process.
This isn't really "new ground", citizen science like this has been around for years. |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Northern Coalition.
1901
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Posted - 2016.03.13 05:03:27 -
[15] - Quote
Galaxxis wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:If they find that the results are useless they will change the game until it works. We should not forget that this is pretty new ground here and they will have to figure out how tho do this first and this is part of that process. This isn't really "new ground", citizen science like this has been around for years.
citizen science that pays in internet spaceship money is new ground.
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Galaxxis
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
5
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Posted - 2016.03.13 05:41:15 -
[16] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:Galaxxis wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:If they find that the results are useless they will change the game until it works. We should not forget that this is pretty new ground here and they will have to figure out how tho do this first and this is part of that process. This isn't really "new ground", citizen science like this has been around for years. citizen science that pays in internet spaceship money is new ground.
Yes. Also, http://i.imgur.com/SmWKRPc.jpg yes people seem to be completely blind. There were other ones with clear double dots! Oh and cytoplasm. Right. |
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale Black Marker
138
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Posted - 2016.03.13 10:06:11 -
[17] - Quote
I will just leave this here..
http://i.imgur.com/YlPYgUt.png http://i.imgur.com/s9pFyfR.png http://puu.sh/nEQUA/3ecc27db52.jpg
Ruthlessly stolen from the "Project Discovery" in-game channel.
When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
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Akie Sonare
G.B.R Out of Sight.
0
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Posted - 2016.03.13 11:13:12 -
[18] - Quote
Project Discovery in a nutshell http://puu.sh/nETk6/e69810b597.png |
Cautious Kev
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2016.03.13 11:32:11 -
[19] - Quote
The only thing that surprises me more than the existence of people who thought this wouldn't be gamed, is the fact that people waste their time on the damn thing in the first place |
Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
6525
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Posted - 2016.03.13 11:44:20 -
[20] - Quote
Linus Gorp wrote:http://puu.sh/nEQUA/3ecc27db52.jpg Thats nothing. I have seen that more and more percentage is for cytoplasm even when there is none in the sample.
Please God, let them die of cancer.
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ =ƒÅ¦ - my sandcastle
Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
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Nozon Poscholann
Phantasos.
0
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Posted - 2016.03.13 15:04:46 -
[21] - Quote
I am educated biologist and I have done courses in doing these... People are often wrong in what they see. Mainly due to the fact (I think) that people don't understand that everything can be in different layers..
But does anyone know how these samples are judged? Is it solely by the Eve community and what the common player believe it is? ...... Tired of all those who just press cytoplasm.... |
Selphentine
Pastafaris
1
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Posted - 2016.03.13 15:18:48 -
[22] - Quote
If you look at the gains compared to community census, it doesnt really seems like the "gain or loss" in precision depends on what others see.
But hey, some people see cytoplasma in every cell, others see their precision bound to the census. |
Chopper Rollins
Lantean Empire
1272
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Posted - 2016.03.14 08:21:42 -
[23] - Quote
pushdogg wrote:...I don't have to play the game to make an educated assumption ...
Confirming input from 'intellectuals' that aren't involved is as valuable as it ever was.
Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
7330
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Posted - 2016.03.14 08:41:24 -
[24] - Quote
Blind players....
Sometimes I have a daydream about taking something like OpenCV, piping the client rendering through it, and making something of a "haptic suit" for blind players so that they can actually play the game without sight. instead of looking at an overview with eyes, they would "feel" the ships around them.
How about that, losing a ship to a blind player. If that ever happened.
But I wear too many hats. And I have a full time job (and one of the last in my circles to have one, a situation that has me buying more rounds of beer at the pub than I could plan on - but this is a happy problem). So there is no time in my life for such a project.
Still I dream. It would suck to be blind. Even worse, it would suck to be blind and not be able to play Eve. If I had my druthers at least one problem could be solved.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Falken Falcon
32411
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Posted - 2016.03.14 11:25:22 -
[25] - Quote
I've had some good laughs off some of the high %s, but i'm sure they will change the system. For some off chance they actually don't, the cytoplasm machine gun will keep firing
"Sammaye > GF Phoenix, what a pro"
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Varyah
I am Forever of the Stars
32
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Posted - 2016.03.14 12:09:53 -
[26] - Quote
Drossk Kalkoken wrote:IRL biologist checking in:
My accuracy is hovering around 62% because ~35% of the time the "community consensus" is WRONG.
This has nothing to do with the oft-maligned millennials. You're essentially paying people who had 15 minutes of training to do a task that requires a bachelor's degree to really be done properly. The players are taking the money and running. Humans are opportunists by nature and if you give them a reward for doing practically nothing, they are going to take it.
You don't need a bachelors degree to recognise patterns in a picture. What you need is a more foolproof gamification.
Idea: Let the players separate patterns in pictures based on fewer choices in several stages: First let players determine if there is more green in the nucleus, outer cell or periphery. Then for those pictures with more green stuff in the nucleus let players decide what kind of pattern it actually is. Basically group types of classification and make the classification a refinement process.
You can't expect the average player to study every picture for 5 minutes. But you can reduce the choices for classification to a level where the classification can reasonably be done in the time the average player is prepared to spend on a single picture for their reward and therefore achieving more reliable results. It might take more time to classify the 150000 pictures but the quality of the classification will be better. |
Galaxxis
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
6
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Posted - 2016.03.14 16:14:56 -
[27] - Quote
Varyah wrote: Idea: Let the players separate patterns in pictures based on fewer choices in several stages: First let players determine if there is more green in the nucleus, outer cell or periphery. Then for those pictures with more green stuff in the nucleus let players decide what kind of pattern it actually is. Basically group types of classification and make the classification a refinement process.
That's the model Galaxy Zoo uses and it seems to work out pretty well. People don't get overwhelmed that way. |
AgentMaster
Platinum Octopus Infernal Octopus
3
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Posted - 2016.03.14 17:08:29 -
[28] - Quote
Please explaim me this -https://i.gyazo.com/12fa22d51d1bcf88c0bb196fa2e132dd.png How can be this the right answer ?!?
Blessed is the man who has nothing to say and yet silent!
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Entecon
Pink Fairy Club Iron Sky.
0
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Posted - 2016.03.15 07:32:16 -
[29] - Quote
Just two examples where i don't get it ...
Seems like people are just doing some random clicking or don't use the color buttons
http://i.imgur.com/yo3NJgY.jpg http://i.imgur.com/822b7Nf.jpg
There should be more automated "checking" between new samples if ppl are just spaming buttons. Or something other, TBH don't know what, but it "feels" not right what's happening there |
Mortlake
Devils Rejects 666
2058
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Posted - 2016.03.15 07:52:45 -
[30] - Quote
Entecon wrote:
Seems like people are just doing some random clicking
You didn't seriously expect people to make an effort, did you?
Father to a murdered son. Husband to a murdered wife. Truth be told, I've been pretty unlucky.
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