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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.02.11 04:23:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 11/02/2007 04:19:50
When you gate into a system in a large gang, every time someone uncloaks, everyone's client hangs for roughly a second. It hangs so completely that even the FPS graph stops, showing nothing but a single line representing however long the pause lasted.
If there's 100 ships that all decloak within 10 seconds of each other... everyone's screen hangs for minutes.
And the irony is that the cause of it is so mundane.
This lag doesn't exist if you're not in Fleet mode. Why? Its caused by the recalculation of gang bonuses. A new person joins the fleet, and the client code appears to be recalculating the entire gang bonus tree from scratch! Obviously I'm not 100% sure, but it seems pretty obvious. The strange thing about it is that the code isn't threaded; instead of simply having the gang screen be delayed by one second, it hangs the whole client.
Fixing this would be a very simple way to fix a huge amount of fleet lag and make tens of thousands of people happy.
On the way to Fountain to face off D2 today, our fleet probably wasted a good hour in this jump lag. Its pathetic.
-[23] Member-
EVE-Trance Radio! (DSTrance channel ingame) |
ArtemisEntreri
Turbulent
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Posted - 2007.02.11 04:27:00 -
[2]
This did not deserve a thread, there is no reason to post this on the forums, and lastly make a bug report u bob puppet.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.02.11 04:29:00 -
[3]
Originally by: ArtemisEntreri This did not deserve a thread, there is no reason to post this on the forums, and lastly make a bug report u bob puppet.
Can you please keep the smack to the COAD forums? There is no need to spam it everywhere else.
-[23] Member-
EVE-Trance Radio! (DSTrance channel ingame) |
Stitcher
Caldari J.I.T. Enterprises Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 04:33:00 -
[4]
And the award for ignorant flamebait troll post of the week goes to....
Originally by: ArtemisEntreri This did not deserve a thread, there is no reason to post this on the forums, and lastly make a bug report u bob puppet.
THIS, on the other hand:
Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 11/02/2007 04:19:50
When you gate into a system in a large gang, every time someone uncloaks, everyone's client hangs for roughly a second. It hangs so completely that even the FPS graph stops, showing nothing but a single line representing however long the pause lasted.
If there's 100 ships that all decloak within 10 seconds of each other... everyone's screen hangs for minutes.
And the irony is that the cause of it is so mundane.
This lag doesn't exist if you're not in Fleet mode. Why? Its caused by the recalculation of gang bonuses. A new person joins the fleet, and the client code appears to be recalculating the entire gang bonus tree from scratch! Obviously I'm not 100% sure, but it seems pretty obvious. The strange thing about it is that the code isn't threaded; instead of simply having the gang screen be delayed by one second, it hangs the whole client.
Fixing this would be a very simple way to fix a huge amount of fleet lag and make tens of thousands of people happy.
On the way to Fountain to face off D2 today, our fleet probably wasted a good hour in this jump lag. Its pathetic.
Is a well-crafted, well-considered post that identifies the main cause of a fairly major performance issue and offers a neat solution, earning it a well-deserved:
/signed.
If re-calculating the gang bonus tree from scratch is the prime cause behind that particular source of lag, then it makes quite a lot of sense to alter the way the game handles gang bonus calculations - maybe with just a standard "If - then" system starting at the pilot in question and working as far up as the first instance of the "if" function not being met. Only re-calculate as much as necessary, and do the minimum possible calculations.
Oh, and delay it by ten seconds or so. Sounds like a neat solution. ***
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ArtemisEntreri
Turbulent
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Posted - 2007.02.11 04:41:00 -
[5]
Quote: Forum Rules Do not post about bugs and exploits. Bugs and exploits should be reported through the proper method by filing a report for our Quality Assurance department. You can find the form here. Issues discovered while playing on the Chaos test server should be noted in the Patch Review forum. Discussions about unverified problems in the game can cause unnecessary panic in the community. When there is an issue the community needs to be aware of, we will make an official statement about it.
Now this is obviously a bug, so bug report it
When there is an issue the community needs to be aware of, we will (ccp) make an official statement about it.
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Stitcher
Caldari J.I.T. Enterprises Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 04:46:00 -
[6]
Perhaps we should assume an inexact choice of wording here? ***
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Plutoinum
German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.02.11 05:13:00 -
[7]
whatever ... /signed
It's really not fun if you want to align to a gate and every second your client hangs, when another ship uncloaks.
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Saladin
Minmatar Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.02.11 05:57:00 -
[8]
Perhaps the best place for this thread is "Known Issues and Workarounds". ----
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Ernest Graefenberg
Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.11 06:30:00 -
[9]
Please sweet christ, yes fix this :(
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Rooker
Dark-Rising Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.02.11 08:09:00 -
[10]
So that's what causes that
Hell, even a smaller 20-ship fleet hangs badly when everyone decloaks at the same moment.
Definitely /signed ---
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Serrano Balthar
Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.11 08:30:00 -
[11]
for me gang = lag.
WHat have change before the old gang (who is named to be laggy)
=> Often when you convert to a fleet, you got kicked from you'r gang => Converting to a fleet = big big lag for you => moving yourself soem "moderate" lag (aka 5 sec max of freeze) => Freezing each time a ship uncloack is INSANE
the new system have numerous advantage, but for now it have somes disavantage /signed ----------- Igvar Thorn arn ! |
Miss KillSome
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Posted - 2007.02.11 10:30:00 -
[12]
sooooooo signed!!!
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Wild Rho
Amarr Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2007.02.11 10:32:00 -
[13]
I just thought it was my PC doing a poor job of loading so many ship models at once.
I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it.
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Ivan Kirilenkov
Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2007.02.11 11:33:00 -
[14]
Please bug-report this and I'll forward it to the right people aswell. Also, please don't troll.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:15:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Ivan Kirilenkov Please bug-report this and I'll forward it to the right people aswell.
Done
Originally by: Wild Rho I just thought it was my PC doing a poor job of loading so many ship models at once.
I thought it was this also. The credit goes to Sophism, a carrier pilot in my alliance who's noticed this lately and realized that the loading lag is drastically lower when not in Fleet mode.
The worst thing I think about this bug is that in the middle of a fleet battle it also occurs, making the lag far worse. Every single time one of your fleet members warps out, everyone's clients hang.
-[23] Member-
EVE-Trance Radio! (DSTrance channel ingame) |
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Sharkbait
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:30:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 11/02/2007 04:19:50
When you gate into a system in a large gang, every time someone uncloaks, everyone's client hangs for roughly a second. It hangs so completely that even the FPS graph stops, showing nothing but a single line representing however long the pause lasted.
If there's 100 ships that all decloak within 10 seconds of each other... everyone's screen hangs for minutes.
And the irony is that the cause of it is so mundane.
This lag doesn't exist if you're not in Fleet mode. Why? Its caused by the recalculation of gang bonuses. A new person joins the fleet, and the client code appears to be recalculating the entire gang bonus tree from scratch! Obviously I'm not 100% sure, but it seems pretty obvious. The strange thing about it is that the code isn't threaded; instead of simply having the gang screen be delayed by one second, it hangs the whole client.
Fixing this would be a very simple way to fix a huge amount of fleet lag and make tens of thousands of people happy.
On the way to Fountain to face off D2 today, our fleet probably wasted a good hour in this jump lag. Its pathetic.
nice post. it's something we can look into. i will get a test on sisi early this week and we can try and reproduce it, hopefully we can from the steps you give us.
thx
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.02.11 18:42:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Sharkbait
Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 11/02/2007 04:19:50
When you gate into a system in a large gang, every time someone uncloaks, everyone's client hangs for roughly a second. It hangs so completely that even the FPS graph stops, showing nothing but a single line representing however long the pause lasted.
If there's 100 ships that all decloak within 10 seconds of each other... everyone's screen hangs for minutes.
And the irony is that the cause of it is so mundane.
This lag doesn't exist if you're not in Fleet mode. Why? Its caused by the recalculation of gang bonuses. A new person joins the fleet, and the client code appears to be recalculating the entire gang bonus tree from scratch! Obviously I'm not 100% sure, but it seems pretty obvious. The strange thing about it is that the code isn't threaded; instead of simply having the gang screen be delayed by one second, it hangs the whole client.
Fixing this would be a very simple way to fix a huge amount of fleet lag and make tens of thousands of people happy.
On the way to Fountain to face off D2 today, our fleet probably wasted a good hour in this jump lag. Its pathetic.
nice post. it's something we can look into. i will get a test on sisi early this week and we can try and reproduce it, hopefully we can from the steps you give us.
thx
<3 Sharkbait, thanks a lot
-[23] Member-
EVE-Trance Radio! (DSTrance channel ingame) |
teeze
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Posted - 2007.02.11 19:04:00 -
[18]
Excellent, constructive and informative post. a grateful dev, an appriciative forum moderator, and a huge step towards a fix.
Have I just logged onto another game's forum?
Thanks DS, I will be forming fleets in systems neighbouring destinations and just flying as gangs to reduce the lag spikes in the mean time. seems like a short term work around for all but the battle itself.
Hmm multiple smaller fleets perhaps might give an advantage when going into 100-100 battles because there would be a fifth the lag on your fleet's side if you only had 20 per fleet? someone wanna try that out?
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Kadarin
Wolfenrecon
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Posted - 2007.02.11 21:31:00 -
[19]
Has anyone done a benefit/drawback comparative analysis between the reduction in lag from the gang not being in fleet mode (no bonuses) vs. the gang/leadership bonuses themselves?
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Kellaen
Gallente Teeth Of The Hydra
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:22:00 -
[20]
This seems to affect some and not others. Last night on a 19 or so ship run I was getting this at every single gate. Pause, move, pause move pause move pause, making it hard to get aligned for jumps...zz...
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.02.11 22:30:00 -
[21]
The problem is with the way the client "waits" for expected incoming data from the server. Instead of the particular window or whatever other section of the client "freezing" for a couple of moments, the ENTIRE client freezes. That happends with pretty much anything in the game except module activations, and probably a couple of other things I keep forgetting about.
Mostly though, whenever the client expects any response, it freezes completely instead of going on about its bussiness until that specific data is received... or possibly until some timeout is reached, in other cases. You can't "fix" that in a simple manner, you have to rethink the UI and/or client communications with server from scratch. _ MySkills | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Sophism
Amarr Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.02.12 04:40:00 -
[22]
Just a little update, The larger the fleet the more lag, so when you test this try to get a 100man fleet going.
When using regular gang there is no lag at all. Also when someone warps out during a fleet battle and comes back everyone hangs for a second while his HP information is loaded.
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Monica Foulkes
HOW Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.12 10:47:00 -
[23]
Maybe it is time to add a few new roles to the fleet system similar to Boss and Scout but call them Fleet Support. The FS should be the only fleet members that provide gang bonuses to the whole fleet regardless if they are squad members or wing commanders. With say a max of four FS the total number of calculations/db lookups should drop since it will be the same bonuses applied to every fleet member in that system.
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FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.02.12 11:18:00 -
[24]
I can confirm, this happens to our fleets too. As soon as you convert from a gang to a fleet, the lag monster hits.
I think three things would markedly improve fleet battle lag:
1) Fixing Fleet lag (as posted above)
2) Fix model loading lag (didn't CCP investigate pre-loading of models at destination, whilst in warp?) Even if this means increasing the default zoom distance so lower LOD models are loaded first.
3) Look at under what terms someone appears the other side of a gate/station/warp when lagged. Most fleet losses are down to the pilots ships appearing to everyone but the owner of the ships, who is still looking at an empty space and JUMPING text.
Sort those three, and you'll have your 100v100 blobs.
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
D'onryu Shoqui
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.12 11:22:00 -
[25]
sometimes i notice this real bad but the pauses or only very short for every jump in in my case.
sometimes i dont notice it at all but i think thats when ive had all the silly colours /icons turned off on my overview (they really do cause lag when you warp into another fleet)
maybe all the coloured squares/icons on your overview/ships in space are the culprit.
------------------------------ My opinions are my own and not that of the alliance i belong to. |
Sinlare
Gallente Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2007.02.12 11:52:00 -
[26]
/signed
I was wondering what CCP changed, and was starting to think my vidcard was broken. Hope it gets fixed soon. |
Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.12 12:11:00 -
[27]
This thread is proof that bug reports in General Discussion gets a result faster than anyware else! --
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ArchenTheGreat
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.02.12 12:12:00 -
[28]
Edited by: ArchenTheGreat on 12/02/2007 12:13:29
Originally by: Sharkbait
nice post. it's something we can look into. i will get a test on sisi early this week and we can try and reproduce it, hopefully we can from the steps you give us. thx
There are LOTS of things in client which can be done in background thread. From the top of my head: - calculating icons for all moons when pressing ALT (I have some keystrokes assigned with Alt and every time when I open cargo in space I suffer from 1sec screen freeze). - opening market window - sorting and stacking items in hangars/cans
When I turn off overview (Ctrl-Tab) I get 30%-50% more FPS. Why does it take so much? It's mostly static content.
Overview list code is completely bugged from it's introduction. Open fleet tab and make it very large, close it, open drone tab and make it large. If you now open both tabs (fleet and drones) your overview list will be a complete mess and you have to delete your settings from disk.
Many things are kept on the client side and it should not. When I switch computers I lose: - bookmark folders, - overview settings groups, - drone groups, - ship modules layouts, - modules options (autorepeat, autoreload). It should be kept on server side. It's online game FFS I may have to go to InetCaffe to play it.
Some things are badly designed: - you can't demote yourself from wing commander to squad commander in one go - not all overview settings are saved in groups (for example: columns) - you can't right click on items in hangars and repair it - when I select multiple items to repackage process stops on damaged item, it should repackage all non-damaged not to stop in the middle of process - overview list which is transparent to clicks, how many times I wanted to click on enemy but select planet icon under it's name!
In general CCP should hire someone to desing GOOD user interface. Both from code viewpoint and from usability viewpoint.
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ArchenTheGreat
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.02.12 12:14:00 -
[29]
Originally by: FireFoxx80
2) Fix model loading lag (didn't CCP investigate pre-loading of models at destination, whilst in warp?) Even if this means increasing the default zoom distance so lower LOD models are loaded first.
Or show only ship icon (no model at all) until BACKGROUND thread will load all textures and mesh. Most of the time we see only icons in fleet fights anyway.
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ArchenTheGreat
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.02.12 12:15:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Lord WarATron This thread is proof that bug reports in General Discussion gets a result faster than anyware else!
What I HATE in bugreporting is complete lack of response.
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