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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
63
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Posted - 2016.03.31 14:36:50 -
[1] - Quote
This hasn't happened. It's an obvious patch for how absurd training queues are.
..Probably shouldn't add 6M SP this go.
Enjoy.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces
335
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Posted - 2016.03.31 14:59:09 -
[2] - Quote
so instead of 1 gun skill dealing with range there would be 3? therefore it would increase train times for people that cross train factions by 3 times as much, there for causing much range or more people dumping injectors for skills
"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
63
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Posted - 2016.03.31 15:06:29 -
[3] - Quote
There would be 4. As stated, making that more SP is unnecessary.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
63
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Posted - 2016.03.31 15:58:26 -
[4] - Quote
Capacitor skills.. e.g.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
2499
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Posted - 2016.03.31 16:08:24 -
[5] - Quote
I can tell you're whining about something but I can't quite tell what. |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
11535
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Posted - 2016.03.31 19:25:40 -
[6] - Quote
He's probably whining that someone either I) stole his shirt, or II) stole his razor.
Got a HoleySheet1 corpse? I'll buy it for 200m!
Bumble's Space Log
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4323
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Posted - 2016.03.31 20:16:17 -
[7] - Quote
Explain.
Do you mean I would need to train hull upgrades, mechanics, high speed manoeuvring and rapid firing four times? |
Wimzy Chent-Shi
Unkindness Incorporated Who Dares Wins.
49
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Posted - 2016.03.31 20:53:19 -
[8] - Quote
Well if done right in theory and the SP/ISK essentialy remains the same this might actually be beneficial to get players who can make reponsible choices flying what they want effectively easier. If I understand this correctly you could have a "Minmatar navigation/Gunnery/Hull Upgrades..." and such, this would result in quartering the training time enabling new players to sky rocket and anger the old ones.
But that is not the CCP way, when skills are split the SP amount multiplies. If this was to be avoided it would be a lovely idea.
Make a newbro foundation started @ here
Let us help those newbros that can not PLEX themselves.
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
63
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Posted - 2016.03.31 23:12:14 -
[9] - Quote
There's no reason for increased SP for an idea that's supposed to make entry worth playing.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Iain Cariaba
2872
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Posted - 2016.04.01 01:03:48 -
[10] - Quote
Wimzy Chent-Shi wrote:...this would result in quartering the training time... Why is reducing the train time needed? Each one of those skills takes less than two days to train to 4, which is more than enough in all but a few instances.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
63
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Posted - 2016.04.01 08:04:13 -
[11] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:Wimzy Chent-Shi wrote:...this would result in quartering the training time... Why is reducing the train time needed? Each one of those skills takes less than two days to train to 4, which is more than enough in all but a few instances. There are multiple skills that affect single stats.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Wimzy Chent-Shi
Unkindness Incorporated Who Dares Wins.
50
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Posted - 2016.04.01 08:36:06 -
[12] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:Wimzy Chent-Shi wrote:...this would result in quartering the training time... Why is reducing the train time needed? Each one of those skills takes less than two days to train to 4, which is more than enough in all but a few instances. Why not? It's not my idea, ask OP. But take T2 tank for instance hull upgrades V. But the it's mods not ahips.
Make a newbro foundation started @ here
Let us help those newbros that can not PLEX themselves.
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Iain Cariaba
2872
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Posted - 2016.04.01 10:02:21 -
[13] - Quote
A brand new character can train each of the support skills to lvl 4 in about 2 days each, give or take half a day. You can get 4 of the 6 gunnery support skills to 4, and the other two to 3, in about 13 days. What does that 13 days give you at the beginning of the game? In the case of a cheap newbie blaster frig that a new pilot can fly from day one, you get 50m optimal range, 350m falloff, and 14.9 dps. Taking all the gunnery support skills to 5 adds a whopping 25m optimal, 200m falloff, and 15.9 dps. Basically, spending skillpoints into maxing out support skills in the very early stages of the game doesn't really help all that much.
If you're suggesting only splitting the core support skills of CPU, PG, and capacitor, those, again, provide very little response to maxing them out very early. The fit I linked above is a very nice fit for a new character to learn to fly in. It's cheap, the parts are readily available, and can actually be flown right out the gate. Training a new character up to all 4s in the core support skills takes about 2.5 days now, as half of them are already at 4. That 2.5 days gives the fit linked above 12 GJ capacitor and +0.55 GJ/s cap recharge. Taking those 4 core support skills up to 5 takes 22 days to provide you with 7.4tf CPU, 2.35MW PG, 12GJ capacitor, and +0.63GJ/s capacitor recharge. Yet again, the train time to max out the support skills is offset by the low return at early stages of the game.
To make an example, say someone started a new Gallente pilot to fly the above fit, and suddenly realized that they're not happy in blaster boats. In order to cross train into autocannons and minmatar ships, they'd not only have to train minmatar frigate and small projectiles up, but they'd have to train a whole new set of support skills to go with them. The skill system already looks daunting enough for new players, adding more and more requirements into the support skills would only discourage exploration into the many things EvE has to offer.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
63
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Posted - 2016.04.01 10:30:11 -
[14] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:A brand new character can train each of the support skills to lvl 4 in about 2 days each, give or take half a day. You can get 4 of the 6 gunnery support skills to 4, and the other two to 3, in about 13 days. What does that 13 days give you at the beginning of the game? In the case of a cheap newbie blaster frig that a new pilot can fly from day one, you get 50m optimal range, 350m falloff, and 14.9 dps. Taking all the gunnery support skills to 5 adds a whopping 25m optimal, 200m falloff, and 15.9 dps. Basically, spending skillpoints into maxing out support skills in the very early stages of the game doesn't really help all that much. If you're suggesting only splitting the core support skills of CPU, PG, and capacitor, those, again, provide very little response to maxing them out very early. The fit I linked above is a very nice fit for a new character to learn to fly in. It's cheap, the parts are readily available, and can actually be flown right out the gate. Training a new character up to all 4s in the core support skills takes about 2.5 days now, as half of them are already at 4. That 2.5 days gives the fit linked above 12 GJ capacitor and +0.55 GJ/s cap recharge. Taking those 4 core support skills up to 5 takes 22 days to provide you with 7.4tf CPU, 2.35MW PG, 12GJ capacitor, and +0.63GJ/s capacitor recharge. Yet again, the train time to max out the support skills is offset by the low return at early stages of the game. To make an example, say someone started a new Gallente pilot to fly the above fit, and suddenly realized that they're not happy in blaster boats. In order to cross train into autocannons and minmatar ships, they'd not only have to train minmatar frigate and small projectiles up, but they'd have to train a whole new set of support skills to go with them. The skill system already looks daunting enough for new players, adding more and more requirements into the support skills would only discourage exploration into the many things EvE has to offer. It would be exactly the same, except any single fit would be 1/4 of the training. Reducing training times is the key to making this game decent.
Edit: that crosstraining would be how it is now, except only for 1/4 of what it is. That's huge. It's some 17d/68d for almost perfect Slicer capacitor.
"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
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Wimzy Chent-Shi
Unkindness Incorporated Who Dares Wins.
50
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Posted - 2016.04.01 10:35:52 -
[15] - Quote
When you start Eve and want to smdo things well quickly training time matters a lot. Two days are insane for someone who played for a week or two.
Make a newbro foundation started @ here
Let us help those newbros that can not PLEX themselves.
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Iain Cariaba
2873
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Posted - 2016.04.01 11:22:49 -
[16] - Quote
Dror wrote:Iain Cariaba wrote:A brand new character can train each of the support skills to lvl 4 in about 2 days each, give or take half a day. You can get 4 of the 6 gunnery support skills to 4, and the other two to 3, in about 13 days. What does that 13 days give you at the beginning of the game? In the case of a cheap newbie blaster frig that a new pilot can fly from day one, you get 50m optimal range, 350m falloff, and 14.9 dps. Taking all the gunnery support skills to 5 adds a whopping 25m optimal, 200m falloff, and 15.9 dps. Basically, spending skillpoints into maxing out support skills in the very early stages of the game doesn't really help all that much. If you're suggesting only splitting the core support skills of CPU, PG, and capacitor, those, again, provide very little response to maxing them out very early. The fit I linked above is a very nice fit for a new character to learn to fly in. It's cheap, the parts are readily available, and can actually be flown right out the gate. Training a new character up to all 4s in the core support skills takes about 2.5 days now, as half of them are already at 4. That 2.5 days gives the fit linked above 12 GJ capacitor and +0.55 GJ/s cap recharge. Taking those 4 core support skills up to 5 takes 22 days to provide you with 7.4tf CPU, 2.35MW PG, 12GJ capacitor, and +0.63GJ/s capacitor recharge. Yet again, the train time to max out the support skills is offset by the low return at early stages of the game. To make an example, say someone started a new Gallente pilot to fly the above fit, and suddenly realized that they're not happy in blaster boats. In order to cross train into autocannons and minmatar ships, they'd not only have to train minmatar frigate and small projectiles up, but they'd have to train a whole new set of support skills to go with them. The skill system already looks daunting enough for new players, adding more and more requirements into the support skills would only discourage exploration into the many things EvE has to offer. It would be exactly the same, except any single fit would be 1/4 of the training. Reducing training times is the key to making this game decent. Edit: that crosstraining would be how it is now, except only for 1/4 of what it is. That's huge. It's some 17d/68d for almost perfect Slicer capacitor. Faction frigates are not newbie friendly. Yes, they can be flown with relative ease, but if you can afford to drop 30m on a PvP frigate, then you should know enough about the game to expect long trains to max it out. I've flown a few navy slicers in my time, and none of them needed perfect capacitor skills, which I didn't have at the time. Basic Capacitor Management 5 and Capacitor Systems Operation 5, along with Controlled Bursts 4 and Afterburner/High Speed Maneuvering 4 is really all you need. Those don't take very long at all.
Wimzy Chent-Shi wrote:When you start Eve and want to smdo things well quickly training time matters a lot. Two days are insane for someone who played for a week or two. No. It is far, far better to suffer the longer train times and learn the game while losing 3-5 mil isk ships than to train quickly into much more expensive ships, only to lose them through lack of knowledge. Those two days my appear insane to someone that's only played for a week or two, but it is far more demoralizing to take the isk you've spent those two weeks farming into a higher end ship, only to lose it in the first battle because you don't know how to fly it.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
1148
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Posted - 2016.04.01 13:39:45 -
[17] - Quote
Wimzy Chent-Shi wrote:When you start Eve and want to smdo things well quickly training time matters a lot. Two days are insane for someone who played for a week or two.
The sooner those noobs with 500 trillion skillpoints leave the better.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
786
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Posted - 2016.04.01 14:04:26 -
[18] - Quote
-1
"Core" skills are considered "core" because they apply to virtually all ships and to virtually all activities in the game, your idea removes that universal application and they are no longer "core" skills and that complicates a great many things in the game.
First thing that comes to mind is the always asked new player question of which skills should I train first. Currently this is an easy question to answer you simply give them a list of "core" skills and send them on their way to explore and experiment with the game safe and comfortable knowing that the skills you have given them will affect virtually everything they ever do and virtually every ship they will ever fly. Looking at this from your racial skills idea and this option is no longer valid. If you give them Gallente skills what happens if they want to fly Amarr, Caldari or Minmatar ships? They are not sure what they want to fly so you tell them to train these skills for all 4 races and they end up exactly where they are now training time wise.
How do you propose to handle the Pirate Faction ships like the Rattlesnake and Nightmare just to name a few. Each pirate faction ship requires skills from 2 races, if you want to fly a pirate faction ship do you have to train these new skills from both races?
Even crazier when looking at your idea is how about ORE ships like the Noctis and the SOE ships like the Nestor do they require their own separate set of racial skills as well?
And what is to be done with the special edition ships like the Genosis, does that require it's own special set of skills?
In the end what you think is a good idea to reduce training times ends up in a nightmare of what skills to recommend to new players and then it doubles down on us by extending the overall training time needed for these skills to at least double and possible as much as four times what it currently takes.
Looking at your idea from all of these perspectives I can see no advantage to this change so in the end I get back to where I started.
-1 |
Michael Vermane
M.V. Capital Corporation
1
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Posted - 2016.04.01 14:38:19 -
[19] - Quote
-1
Core and support skills do not need to be maxed out or at level 4 for the game to be "decent" or playable.
Make meaningful choices, focus on what is important, and improve over time. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
14967
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Posted - 2016.04.01 15:23:21 -
[20] - Quote
I'm confused.
And inexplicably angry ... I blame the op.
Better the Devil you know.
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