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Constantly Outraged Sebiestor
Gutter Press
141
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Posted - 2016.04.13 05:06:50 -
[31] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:Murder can be just and legal executions can be wrong.
Well, maybe there should be some kind of investigation, to establish the facts, eh ?
I wonder what you could call such a thing.
Obviously not a trial though.
Because the Tribes "don't do trials".
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Ayallah
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
462
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Posted - 2016.04.13 05:57:01 -
[32] - Quote
The Tribes do trials all the time and I never said they did not. There is a branch of government called the Republic Justice Department dedicated to such things.
What you are doing is whining that the Purge was effective, efficient, and prudent without it. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office
708
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Posted - 2016.04.13 06:40:08 -
[33] - Quote
Quote:That is Tribal justice It is not tribal to kill a person, and then accuse him of something, and if someone objects, ask them for proof that he was innocent and did not need to be killed. That is like an Amarrian way to treat slaves, not the way civilized people treat their kin. Tribal justice would be to give your kin the benefit of doubt until they are proven guilty, to let their clan speak for and with them before the sentence, and to let them handle carrying it out if that is their custom.
I was a member of the Tribes last I checked, and those murders were certainly not done in my name.
Of course, this is an era where all sorts of barbaric superstitions are celebrated as "tribal revival", and "Tribal" has started to mean "agreeing with The Leader". So figures.
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
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Ayallah
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
462
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Posted - 2016.04.13 07:29:03 -
[34] - Quote
They were not accused. They were found to be guilty and removed, the proof was left with the sentence. The Tribes took back their government in a single night in the strongest act since the rebellion and all you do is mew about it.
Whining and capitulating was a hallmark of the old Republic and I can see you are more than willing to carry on the tradition. Go live in the Federation if you feel you are not represented by your Chief. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Icecream Audit Office
708
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Posted - 2016.04.13 08:38:28 -
[35] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:They were not accused. They were found to be guilty and removed, the proof was left with the sentence. You have no idea how trials for justice work, do you?
Something took our government, for sure, in one night of rebellion. Something that thinks that a stronger person who can present words in their favor should have the right to kill a wrongdoer without their clan having the chance to present evidence in the contrary.
So be it; I will go back to my silence.
May your ancestors open your ears - and those of our leaders - so that one day you hear more than mewing when members of the Tribes ask for justice.
Let the bridges we burn light the way.
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Ayallah
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
462
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Posted - 2016.04.13 17:31:25 -
[36] - Quote
The Tribes have not asked for justice, they received it years ago. YOU are asking for trials which are not the same as justice, they are simply a process of bureaucracy in service of justice. Police forces kill people before a trial often, the work of bureaucracy is done after the fact just as it was done during the Purge. Stop pretending that you seek justice for those killed, justice was given. For the Matari.
All you care about is using the Purge to justify your conspiracies about the SanMatar. You care nothing for any of those killed in the Purge and I doubt you could even name one. I doubt that you even think anyone died who should not have.
Sometimes, there is not the luxury of a long bureaucratic process before someone needs to be shot Elsebeth. Perhaps you have been too long removed from the reality of nature that civilization covers up to remember. I am not, I recognize the bureaucratic process for what it is, a luxury of checks and balances. Not justice itself.
Quote: GÇ£Justice was served. No punishment can truly fit the crime committed; we dispensed the most fitting justice possible." Does this phrase seem wrong to you, not a part of Tribal Justice? Because it comes from the mouth of your own Tribe concerning the execution of Broteau. You are like the Gallente, crying out that justice was too swift for comfort and some things you think should have been done were not.
Quote:The swiftness of the trial and particularly the execution is unusual inside the Republic, leading some commentators to criticize their actions. The Sebiestor Tribe has released a short statement saying, GÇ£Justice was served. No punishment can truly fit the crime committed; we dispensed the most fitting justice possible.GÇ¥ The words of your own Tribe. A trial thought by many to be "unjust" Yet you do not complain about this as 'a trial was held' and served YOUR goals, you have yet to complain was too swift. You seek only to paint a picture that the SanMatar came to power illegitimately, is a dictator who installed puppet Chieftains and then had the Ray of Matar killed. You believe your own Tribe are somehow blind to this and are covering it up? That it did not come out during Broteau's trial either in the Federation or before your own Tribe's leaders? This is your actual true belief?
You insult all the Tribes with your suggestions of puppet chiefs, your own Tribe you claim is blind and dumb to not have discovered this before, and you spit on the legacy of the SanMatar who reunited the Tribes and made them equal with your foolish conspiracies. All because you feel that Midular should have remained Prime Minister. Even at the cost of losing forever a Tribe, condemning the Republic to a corrupt, weak, ineffectual, and unpopular government. Even at the cost of the New Tribal Order.
For the sake of your comfort.
I call it mewing. |
Constantly Outraged Sebiestor
Gutter Press
142
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Posted - 2016.04.13 17:59:34 -
[37] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Something took our government, for sure, in one night of rebellion.
It's not just that. It's not just the idea of having some form of legal process (a crime occurs, you talk to the holder of the Laws, who'll listen to the evidence, and decide what if any action should be taken).
In order for this "Purge" to be true then, the following have to be true:
1. That one foreign agency controlled a significant amount of Minmatar politicians.
2. That a second foreign agency, whose identity and agenda are unknown, was able to conduct the operation.
3. That the RSS and local police forces were so incompetent that they didn't know about points 1 and 2.
So. If point 1 is true, then, you have to question things.
If we are to believe point 1, then, you have to ask these questions:
A. Given that the Amarr secret service effectively controlled the Republic... why did the Republic even exist ? Why hadn't the Amarr conquered it long before now ? Surely that would have been simple ?
B. Given the alleged supremacy of Amarr-controlled politicians... How did Chief Karin Midular, or Maleatu Shakor, ever attain political office in the first place ? Instead of being sidelined or eliminated long before establishing a political career ?
If point 2 is true, then you also have to question things.
C. Given that the real identity and real agenda of those agents was and is unknown, then, you must ask. In whose name did they commit these actions ? By what right do they exercise that power ?
D. The existence of an outside foreign agency, that claims the right to intervene in Minmatar affairs, is by its very existence, a threat to the self-determination of the Minmatar peoples. As long as such an organisation exists, cloaked in shadow, then is it not the case that the Tribes are not allowed to determine their own affairs ? Is it not the case that our Clan and Tribe leaders are threatened with murder, should they not conform to this foreign agency's agenda ?
If point 3 is true, then you also must ask.
E. Given this level of incompetence amongst the security forces who are supposed to protect the people, can they be trusted to protect the people against other threats ? Such as the Angel Cartel ?
F. Have the RSS and local police forces magically become more competent since ?
And, if it was all true, then, it means that the systems of government couldn't be trusted in the past.
So, we should not trust them in future, should we ? We should not allow them to act without questioning every action, and demanding a satisfactory explanation, should we ? |
Ayallah
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
462
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Posted - 2016.04.13 18:32:56 -
[38] - Quote
Constantly Outraged Sebiestor wrote:In order for this "Purge" to be true then, the following have to be true:
1. That one foreign agency controlled a significant amount of Minmatar politicians.
2. That a second foreign agency, whose identity and agenda are unknown, was able to conduct the operation.
3. That the RSS and local police forces were so incompetent that they didn't know about points 1 and 2. It was many people of varying levels of corruption to multiple massive foreign agencies. Taking Caldari bribes, feeding intelligence to the Empire, favoring Gallente businesses, letting Cartel agents go, letting Serpentis drugs through the border. etc. etc. It was not one singular entity, this is a child's understanding of one of the most significant events in Republic history.
The Elders and the Elder fleet with the help of the Tribes. A child would know this.
They did know and many were working to end corruption, they were a large part of the investigations into the people removed in the purge. Some were also those who were found to be corrupt. |
Constantly Outraged Sebiestor
Gutter Press
142
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Posted - 2016.04.13 18:42:11 -
[39] - Quote
Ayallah wrote: It was many people of varying levels of corruption to multiple massive foreign agencies. Taking Caldari bribes, feeding intelligence to the Empire, favoring Gallente businesses, letting Cartel agents go, letting Serpentis drugs through the border. etc. etc..
But only the Amarr secret service was mentioned. None of those others were. |
Ayallah
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
462
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Posted - 2016.04.13 18:47:51 -
[40] - Quote
I am sure there was a lot unmentioned. It could be a combination of many as well. A cartel member who is an informant to the Amarr secret service and things like that. You would have to look up the individuals to find the specific reasons.
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Sinti Vailatti
Angelis Exploration
94
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Posted - 2016.04.13 22:43:20 -
[41] - Quote
It all goes back to "who profits?" Who made the most from this assassination? Follow the ISK and you'll have the people behind it.
Who prosecuted Gerne Broteau and who passed judgement?
GÇ£Where must we go, we who wander this wasteland, in search of our better selves.GÇ¥
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Ayallah
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
462
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Posted - 2016.04.14 15:37:34 -
[42] - Quote
The new Chief of the Sebiestor Tribe gained the most. She is now the sole leader of trillions, one of the largest or the largest ethnic group in New Eden, I forget. It was also the Sebiestor Tribe who prosecuted Broteau and passed judgment on him.
But this idea is only slightly less stupid than "The SanMatar did it because of the purge." |
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2419
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Posted - 2016.04.14 16:14:16 -
[43] - Quote
I remember calling for an official investigation into Midular's assassination shortly after it happened and receiving insults from certain Republicans in reply.
It's funny* how things turn out.
* Funny odd, not funny haha.
Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
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Andreus Ixiris
Duty. Mighty Wings.
5861
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Posted - 2016.04.14 16:47:41 -
[44] - Quote
If you believe the timbers are rotten, set your own house in order as much as you like. I wish you the best of luck in that endeavour.
But don't dare come crying to the Federation about our misdeeds. You lost any right to do that the moment you and yours murdered tens of thousands of Federal Navymen - and still, even after you stabbed us in the back after a century of our friendship and generosity, we, naive fools that we are, gave you what you wanted anyway. We handed Broteau over, and then you executed him. You, not us.
I'll be the last one to speak in that slimebag Mentas Blaque's defence, but why should he suffer any charge at the hands of Minmatar prosecutors when the admirals and captains who incursed our territory and slaughtered our border defence forces go free?
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
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Gosakumori Noh
Hematology Advancement Program I N G L O R I O U S
791
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Posted - 2016.04.14 16:53:26 -
[45] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:I remember calling for an official investigation into Midular's assassination shortly after it happened and receiving insults from certain Republicans in reply.
It is a little difficult to keep track of which shrill Sebbie led a fleet to invade the Federation and murder a bunch of Gallente (hi, Diana!) so that she could murder the murderer; which shrill Sebbie called Midular an unspeakable traitor before she became a convenient excuse to go blow up some blue capitals; which shrill Sebbie pulled the imbecilic notion of "blood jurisdiction" out her ass in order to justify the above and... was it all the same ******* idiot?
It is difficult to tell the embroidery patterns they have printed on their faces apart. |
Rinai Vero
Moira. Villore Accords
748
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Posted - 2016.04.14 22:47:53 -
[46] - Quote
For my part, I will say only that Karin Midular's loss was a tragedy, and what followed was a tragedy also. Her memory is honored not only by her Matari kin, but also among all those in the Federation who love liberty. |
Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
1100
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Posted - 2016.04.15 01:26:05 -
[47] - Quote
Mentas Blaque is the Federation's problem. Leave him out of Tribal matters. Decrying Federation 'meddling' in Tribal justice and then trying to meddle with the Federation's problems without their express invitation is hypocrisy.
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
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Andreus Ixiris
Duty. Mighty Wings.
5861
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Posted - 2016.04.15 03:21:04 -
[48] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote:Mentas Blaque is the Federation's problem. Leave him out of Tribal matters. Decrying Federation 'meddling' in Tribal justice and then trying to meddle with the Federation's problems without their express invitation is hypocrisy. Yes, I notice that elements of the Republic Fleet in particular seem to have trouble understanding the concept of not being invited to something, n'est-ce pas?
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
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Ayallah
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
462
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Posted - 2016.04.15 04:28:17 -
[49] - Quote
More Matari died that day than Gallente. I am not trying to make it seem as if you should not be angry but you are letting the words of an individual get to you.
For most Matari that was a black day of loss and shame. Just because a few people do not know when to shut their mouth does not mean that the people of the Republic do not recognize Colelie for what it was. It is not something that will happen again. |
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik
1357
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Posted - 2016.04.15 08:26:20 -
[50] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:the admirals and captains who incursed our territory and slaughtered our border defence forces go free?
I thought most of them were killed in action, during the Colelie Incident ?
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
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Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
1103
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Posted - 2016.04.15 08:50:53 -
[51] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:More Matari died that day than Gallente. I am not trying to make it seem as if you should not be angry but you are letting the words of an individual get to you.
For most Matari that was a black day of loss and shame. Just because a few people do not know when to shut their mouth does not mean that the people of the Republic do not recognize Colelie for what it was. It is not something that will happen again.
Colelie is a clusterfrak that shouldn't have happened. None of us should allow fiery passions overwhelm good sense and none of us should be using 'For the Tribe' as a cudgel to get what we want, everyone else be damned.
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
2561
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Posted - 2016.04.15 11:14:09 -
[52] - Quote
Colelie was destined to happen. It is a logical conclusion of collision between self-righteous occupationist dominating regime built on lies (who thinks that only their way of life should exist) with primitive aggressive savages like minmatars.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
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