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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Marcusi
Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.16 16:04:00 -
[211]
Shush guys, you're going to wake Valar.
So based on this fight, I'm having real problems reconciling it with Tux's last devblog saying he wants to make goals achievable for 30 man fleets instead of 100. This fight showed that the stakes have been raised by a factor of 10. It's not about 100 man fleets anymore, it's 1000.
The only way I see smaller fleets being able to achieve these kinds of goals is to massively nerf defenses, which is seems counter to the addition of things like raised hitpoints, ewar impervious motherships, and nearly unkillable Titans. All of which encourage larger fleets.
Good luck CCP on sorting it out. ___________________________
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Marcusi
Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.16 16:04:00 -
[212]
Shush guys, you're going to wake Valar.
So based on this fight, I'm having real problems reconciling it with Tux's last devblog saying he wants to make goals achievable for 30 man fleets instead of 100. This fight showed that the stakes have been raised by a factor of 10. It's not about 100 man fleets anymore, it's 1000.
The only way I see smaller fleets being able to achieve these kinds of goals is to massively nerf defenses, which is seems counter to the addition of things like raised hitpoints, ewar impervious motherships, and nearly unkillable Titans. All of which encourage larger fleets.
Good luck CCP on sorting it out. ___________________________
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2007.02.16 16:19:00 -
[213]
Originally by: Marcusi Shush guys, you're going to wake Valar.
So based on this fight, I'm having real problems reconciling it with Tux's last devblog saying he wants to make goals achievable for 30 man fleets instead of 100. This fight showed that the stakes have been raised by a factor of 10. It's not about 100 man fleets anymore, it's 1000.
The only way I see smaller fleets being able to achieve these kinds of goals is to massively nerf defenses, which is seems counter to the addition of things like raised hitpoints, ewar impervious motherships, and nearly unkillable Titans. All of which encourage larger fleets.
Good luck CCP on sorting it out.
Ha! Game designer in CCP lost the control over the game. --------------------------------- Hint 1: Train for Mega, not for Rokh Hint 2: Abaddon is uber fleet BS. R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake>
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2007.02.16 16:19:00 -
[214]
Originally by: Marcusi Shush guys, you're going to wake Valar.
So based on this fight, I'm having real problems reconciling it with Tux's last devblog saying he wants to make goals achievable for 30 man fleets instead of 100. This fight showed that the stakes have been raised by a factor of 10. It's not about 100 man fleets anymore, it's 1000.
The only way I see smaller fleets being able to achieve these kinds of goals is to massively nerf defenses, which is seems counter to the addition of things like raised hitpoints, ewar impervious motherships, and nearly unkillable Titans. All of which encourage larger fleets.
Good luck CCP on sorting it out.
Ha! Game designer in CCP lost the control over the game. --------------------------------- Hint 1: Train for Mega, not for Rokh Hint 2: Abaddon is uber fleet BS. R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake>
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Dammar
Amarr Ephorate
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Posted - 2007.02.16 16:20:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Cadela Fria
Originally by: Nyrram
Originally by: Andreas Syneticus Before the first node crash, it was relayed that your gate defenders had left their positions (probably to the pos), so the gate was ours regardless.
Then your intel was incorrect and you were jumping to your doom. Our entire fleet (except capitals) was still on the gate, waiting to destroy anything that came in. You would very likely have lost that battle after your initial force jumped into us. Then your logoffskis would have come in, reacting to the poor choice to jump in, and another fight would have happened, then your other reinforcements that were on the way would have come in to whatever was left (if anything) of our defenders. (Or any other of a myriad of different possibilities.. too bad we will never know)
Noone had gone to the PoS, save maybe a handful of people warping on their own. The bulk of our fleet was still in position before the first node crash.
And you people wonder why we have no respect for you. Posting smack on an alt about intel that was apparently provided by a monkey.
What a great deal of assumptions about your enemy there..you know what I think? I think Jovians would suddenly appear out of nowhere and wipe out both entire fleets and blow up the entire system with a jovian doomsday device, and then go eat chili, because farting is the only humour they have left.
Now that would be an awesome event, and truly 'epic' enough to warrant the return of the Jovians.
The Jovian solution: Everybody dies.
(course..the server would go up in a mushroom cloud too heh)
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Dammar
Amarr Ephorate
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Posted - 2007.02.16 16:20:00 -
[216]
Originally by: Cadela Fria
Originally by: Nyrram
Originally by: Andreas Syneticus Before the first node crash, it was relayed that your gate defenders had left their positions (probably to the pos), so the gate was ours regardless.
Then your intel was incorrect and you were jumping to your doom. Our entire fleet (except capitals) was still on the gate, waiting to destroy anything that came in. You would very likely have lost that battle after your initial force jumped into us. Then your logoffskis would have come in, reacting to the poor choice to jump in, and another fight would have happened, then your other reinforcements that were on the way would have come in to whatever was left (if anything) of our defenders. (Or any other of a myriad of different possibilities.. too bad we will never know)
Noone had gone to the PoS, save maybe a handful of people warping on their own. The bulk of our fleet was still in position before the first node crash.
And you people wonder why we have no respect for you. Posting smack on an alt about intel that was apparently provided by a monkey.
What a great deal of assumptions about your enemy there..you know what I think? I think Jovians would suddenly appear out of nowhere and wipe out both entire fleets and blow up the entire system with a jovian doomsday device, and then go eat chili, because farting is the only humour they have left.
Now that would be an awesome event, and truly 'epic' enough to warrant the return of the Jovians.
The Jovian solution: Everybody dies.
(course..the server would go up in a mushroom cloud too heh)
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Vastation
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Posted - 2007.02.16 16:24:00 -
[217]
I don't see how it's possible to lower the fleet sizes. If you have a goal that is achievable by a fleet of 30 then the defenders will bring 50 and the next time the attackers will try with 70 and so on and so forth.
With the increasing server population this can only escalate. Yesterday we saw a fleet close to a 1000, what will it be in a year assuming EVE continues to grow? 1500? 2000?
I'm not a programmer but doesn't the node know that people are comming? I mean, if 1000 people set an autopilot destination for JV1 maybe the JV1 node should start loading the required stuff 2 or 3 jumps before people actualy get there. Same for the clients.
I'm curious to see what CCP will do. CAN they fix this? When? Next month or in a year?
Vastation
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Dammar
Amarr Ephorate
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Posted - 2007.02.16 16:27:00 -
[218]
Originally by: Vagilicious Edited by: Vagilicious on 16/02/2007 11:48:11 Wow.. I guess Karma does exist after all!
Well thanks a lot everyone for messing up eve again.. this is where the much vaunted ideal of "0.0 > everything else in eve" leads to?
I don't recall a node crashing ever due to missions or mining.. maybe with the exception of Jita..
Oh, but props to Valar for trying to sort the mess out!
lol nice name.
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Kazuo Ishiguro
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Posted - 2007.02.16 16:43:00 -
[219]
Originally by: Vastation I'm not a programmer but doesn't the node know that people are comming? I mean, if 1000 people set an autopilot destination for JV1 maybe the JV1 node should start loading the required stuff 2 or 3 jumps before people actualy get there. Same for the clients.
Hmm - here's what would probably happen:
1. Enemy fleet wants to attack POS. 2. Enemy fleet meets up in neighbouring system. 3. Enemy fleet sets autopilot to somewhere in a different region, waits for a bit and jumps in. 4. ??? 5. Profit!
As I see it, there are only two options available to CCP:
1. Find a way to throw more nodes/resources at a single system to stop it crashing. 2. Significantly reduce the amount of data transmitted between fleet members.
I expect neither is going to be easy to achieve, so I don't expect any rapid improvements to the current situation
------
So you're lagged out in Motsu/Saila/Aramachi, but you want that CNR? Do missions for another corp! |
Vastation
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Posted - 2007.02.16 17:10:00 -
[220]
Edited by: Vastation on 16/02/2007 17:07:07 Well if a 1000 people prefere crashing nodes then getting a fight then I say let the god damn node crash. Over and over and over again.
We as players have to do our part in this thing.
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Nials Corva
Gallente Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2007.02.16 17:16:00 -
[221]
Not to mention that "shardless" is far more marketting spin than actuality. Every system is in effect a shard.
Based upon the client and server information, CCP seems to have a real aversion to parallel computing. There's no reason at all for the the GUI to freeze on network connections such as loading market data or warping into a system. I'm not sure there are any conceptual reasons that a system is the lowest granularity of a node. We know there are grids, and I'd think that you could split a system in half, handing off ships from one side to the other while in warp and dealing with the "loading" screen on the off chance that someone actually does manually fly across it.
Then again, there's a lot of legacy concerns for a system the size of eve. It's not like they can just rewrite the backend from scratch in a couple days. It's a huge risk factor, moreso than the occasional 1000 participant fleet battle.
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Nezz Jaran
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Posted - 2007.02.16 20:06:00 -
[222]
Ok, so the IT person in me is curious...
What SPECIFICALLY is causing the node-deaths? 100% CPU utilization? Saturated bandwidth? DB response times?
As to the actual topic, is there any other MMORPG that has ever had 1000+ people try to fight each other at the same time? Just curious
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DinoC
ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2007.02.16 20:07:00 -
[223]
Originally by: Valar
Originally by: Jake Noble
So what are we supposed to do? Just allow the POS to be popped or what? If anything close the WHOLE node down and put the hostiles back in the other system and then fix it for christ sake.
For you to say " sorry i cant help anymore " is an insult... our friends are to loose there pos because you guys cant handle / fix the load?
What can I do? If I close the node like you call it, the solarsystem will load on another node and there is no way to "fix it" when the load thats being put on the solarsystem exceeds the capacity of our most powerful servers. If I *could* do anything for you now I would, belive me, but there are limits and no major breakthroughs are going to happen at 6am when I'm sitting on the edge of my bed with my laptop trying to keep TQ in good service.
Good to know that some of you care, no matter what time of the day. Thumbs up for you.
[orange]Please keep your signature below the 24000 bytes limit.- Thx Pirlouit [/ |
James Duar
Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.02.16 20:14:00 -
[224]
Originally by: Nials Corva Not to mention that "shardless" is far more marketting spin than actuality. Every system is in effect a shard.
Based upon the client and server information, CCP seems to have a real aversion to parallel computing. There's no reason at all for the the GUI to freeze on network connections such as loading market data or warping into a system. I'm not sure there are any conceptual reasons that a system is the lowest granularity of a node. We know there are grids, and I'd think that you could split a system in half, handing off ships from one side to the other while in warp and dealing with the "loading" screen on the off chance that someone actually does manually fly across it.
Then again, there's a lot of legacy concerns for a system the size of eve. It's not like they can just rewrite the backend from scratch in a couple days. It's a huge risk factor, moreso than the occasional 1000 participant fleet battle.
This would help less then you'd imagine though, since JV1V specifically had most of the involved forces trying to fight on the same grid.
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Nyrram
Minmatar Quam Singulari Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.02.16 21:13:00 -
[225]
Edited by: Nyrram on 16/02/2007 21:09:34
Originally by: Nials Corva Not to mention that "shardless" is far more marketting spin than actuality. Every system is in effect a shard.
Incorrect. The term "shard" is referring to the game world itself, not the sub-partitioning of that world. In other MMORPG, you usually have multiple shards.. that is different versions of the same game world.. so you can have 3 characters on one shard, 3 characters on another shard, etc, and all develop independently. EVE is one shard, and all players interact with the same version of the game world.
Some games call them realms, others call them servers. (though it's really a group of servers most likely)
The only other widely popular MMORPG game I can think of off the top of my head that is single shard is Guild Wars, though Guild Wars is instanced, meaning the game world doesn't really exist until someone steps out of a town, and even then, players cannot interact with players in the same area from another instance of that area. So in essence you end up with multiple versions of the same location for dozens of different groups... imagine 200 different Jitas at one time, each with a handful of people in it, doing whatever.. boooring. (In Guild Wars, even the cities themselves are "zoned" which means you can have 10+ versions of the same city at any given time, with a new zone created when one reaches capacity)
EVE is the ONLY one that is single shard and non-instanced. All 25,000+ people are logged into the same game world, and can interact with everyone else in the system they are currently in, unless you count the chinese server, which I don't.
So, the suggestion to shard the server is basically a suggestion to create one or more new EvE universes that are in essence identical to this one, but with 0 characters.. then we would decide whether we would play on Tranquility or the new server (shard), and develop new characters, corps, alliances, etc on however many new ones they created. This would be like the population control of other MMORPG, reducing the numbers on any given shard to roughly proportional numbers of the current peak maximum.
Sharding still would not fix the blobbing issue... and I imagine that some larger groups might hit new shards with their entire numbers, thus enabling them to "dominate" that new shard, and possibly multiple new shards.
-- Nyrram |
Gatekeeper Eight
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Posted - 2007.02.17 13:11:00 -
[226]
I didnt even get to play :(:( *sniff*
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Einheriar Ulrich
Minmatar FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.17 14:00:00 -
[227]
As a veteraned EVE player, and always there for a fleet fight......i can understand the frustrations being put forth here, in this thread.
Numbers here are relevant....the node could not handle the pressure, and could certainly not accomodate 500v1000 or if that where the actual numbers.
If you loose key systems, and key ships, because of these accidents, where you can do absolutly nothing to prevent it, it will destroy your mode to play this game.
Now among those figthing parties involved, i guess, from some of the responses in here, where alot of naive, noob players into fleet combat large scale. Either that or some are blatantly lying to themselves. Everyone with experience onto these matters, would have know that the Node would Crash, and thus destroying any ability to fight on equal terms, being the defenders or the offenders.
I am not accusing anybody of destroying the Node on purpose, but one have to ask themselves, it has been seen before, and you know what happens if you put such 2 big fleets in the proximity of each other.
I hope CCP in the future will be able to conjour up a method, so these things can be prevented, alot of us lust for dramatic, epic fleetbattles. I guess, its small scale combat for now. I do hope LV will get their TITAN, and their systems back reinforced, i also hope CCP will reimburse Ra/goonswarm for their losses, would only be fair.
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Durham Elysion
Solar Wind
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Posted - 2007.02.20 22:19:00 -
[228]
Out of curiosity, how did all this turn out in the end? I'm not involved in any way, just... curious :)
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Richard Aiel
Caldari The Funkstars Guild
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Posted - 2007.02.20 22:40:00 -
[229]
Id just like to see titanic (no pun intanded) fleet battles without the death of the node PERKOSET & OXYCODONE IS FUN!!! Lets see how long till this post lives... |
Pattonator
CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.02.20 22:53:00 -
[230]
Final answer- CCP says that neither side had an advantage so they are not doing anything.
Obviously we don't agree and anybody who does must also believe it when CCP says that there is no lag in Eve.
Imagine a war where the defensive forces are well dug in with long range snipers ready to deal lots of damage. The engineering forces (in this case carriers with cap shield transfer) ready to repair a reinforced station. There are large hostile forces inbound. CCP waves its magic wand and the defense is gone. They are moved to logging back in and staring at character selection screens for hours on end.
In the meantime the offensive forces wanting to get into JV1 were free to do so completely unhindered by any defense that previously was waiting to annihilate them. M-RP the neighboring system did not crash and the gate was not locked. The jump-ins took priority over the logins as it only took a few minutes for them to jump in but hours for the logins. Many of the RAGOONS who got the long character selection screens were able to file stuck petitions and get moved out of JV1 where they could login and then jump in JV1. This was not something that LV could do as we had to be on the right side of the goons to defend JV1 as its a dead end system.
So what was the outcome? CCP screwed up and their own Dev Team member admitted so on this forum. CCP looked at the situation and realized that they had no balls and somehow concluded that having a dug-in defense moved to character selection screens was not a disadvantage. Goons are now laughing hysterically at CCP's ruling as their vast waves of ibis, reapers, and velators can crash any node. Then RA can move their fighting forces in to defeat an empty system.
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Frug
Zenithal Harvest
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Posted - 2007.02.20 23:19:00 -
[231]
Props to Valar for trying and ignoring the flame.
Shame on a few IAC guys for antagonizing the situation by declaring themselves the obvious victors without a fight ever taking place. 2:1 odds mean nothing. Any idiot can figure out why.
Shame on Goonswarm for doing what I think you did. I hope you're not trying to do to eve what I know you do to, say, Second Life.
- - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - or automatic signatures - - - - - - - - |
hotgirl933
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Posted - 2007.02.20 23:22:00 -
[232]
CCP need to keep upgrading the game to handle higher level fights its that simple and or try to make it that perhaps POS soveingty is over a constellation instead meaning u have to take down POSes across a 5-10 system range therefore reducing the blob v blob mentality
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Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.20 23:34:00 -
[233]
Originally by: Pattonator
In the meantime the offensive forces wanting to get into JV1 were free to do so completely unhindered by any defense that previously was waiting to annihilate them.
AFAIK, out of the 60 capital ships that were waiting to jump in JV1V, 1 never managed the jump , 20 couldn't warp to the pos once in-system, 15 crashed and couldn't log back, and out of the 24 or so reaching the POS, only 12 managed to get a lock the pos and activate their modules.
"Completely unhindered" isn't the term I'd use to describe this lag-fest... ------------------------------------------ Every ship has a base 60-70% resist against the primary damage type of the race that is the least able to vary it's damage types. |
Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2007.02.21 06:27:00 -
[234]
if they reimburse lv baby titan then those last folks who still believe in CCP's neutrality will ensure that GMs are officially on bob side. so CCP would have to reimburse d2's titan killed using very questionable methods to repair such rep loss.. if they care at all anyway.
anyway, if you reimburse one node crash, then you'd have to do the same with every other node crash situation. as they can't avoid node crashes this time, such solution is unacceptable.
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Ezra Vouland
Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.24 00:01:00 -
[235]
qq
They call me trash... TrashGUY |
Wylker
Caldari Pyrrhus Sicarii
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Posted - 2007.02.24 00:25:00 -
[236]
I was pretty impartial to this situation, feeling like LV probably would have lost anyway, until I found out that the initial jump in, of 300 or so goonies, were ALL IN NOOB SHIPS.
Rediculous.
--- Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Elmo Pug ([email protected])
http://jamesbanks.org/wylkersig.jpg Letter to the Devs
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Jane Spondogolo
NoobWaffe
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Posted - 2007.02.24 00:33:00 -
[237]
Im still amazed that whoever ordered 400+ people to guard the gate hasnt been kicked out of the game. Im absolutely appaled that LV have the nerve to accuse the attackers of being responsible when , whilst having a defensive advantage, they stick 400 on the gate. Shame on you LV for blobbing the gate, and double shame for accusing the enemy of being responsible.
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