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Inslander Wessette
Killers of Paranoid Souls Imminent Threat
28
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Posted - 2016.04.13 10:24:31 -
[1] - Quote
Aegis Sov is Occupancy based . Ideally when you have less systems it should be easy to defend . In reality what happens is that, the less systems you have, more easy you get camped by black ops cynos untill your ADMs go down .
From the Port to the Sanctums all of them are non-gated . Making one Black ops cyno in local, active or passive disrupt ADMs. This makes the defender of ADMs to always commit while the black ops pilots can afk all day until they have the numbers to drop .
This is one of the key reasons to having sov causing more burn to players than sitting in lowsec or npc sov with a small black ops group .
A simple solution is a new class of "single gated" anomalies ( like the special events) with cruiser limitation , which gives isk below havens but has more ewar npc cruisers/frigates . So, to disrupt sov one has to actively bring a fleet to disrupt ADMs rather than passively sit at a pos without risking anything until they have the clear advantage .
This mechanic is already proven in Faction warfare, where there are smaller gated sites that can be done without the risk of running into cynos and Large sites with a possibility of cyno risk .
This problem did not exist in dominion sov as Military and industry index meant nothing for the defense of the system . With more buffs coming to Black ops it will only cause more griefing . Its going to be a lot easier to be a merc and own money moons in different regions and base outta NPC space that actually hold and defend sov . |
Zamyslinski
V0LTA WE FORM V0LTA
17
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Posted - 2016.04.13 10:42:20 -
[2] - Quote
watch local and intel channels cuz i think you simply got ganked and it has nothing to do with the sov mehcanics :> |
Sal Askiras
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
6
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Posted - 2016.04.13 13:29:18 -
[3] - Quote
Posting in a stealth "Cloaky Campers are EVIL!!!!" thread. |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
799
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Posted - 2016.04.13 13:46:39 -
[4] - Quote
Big bad nul sec player got ganked doing a site now they need more safety. No you cannot have a new class of special sites that you can run in near 100% safety.
High sec players face the reality of being ganked every single time they un-dock a ship why should you be any different? And you have the added advantage that it is extremely easy for you to set up your contacts / overview / local so you can easily identify when you have someone in system with you that you need to be aware of, in high sec they cannot do this simply because the shear number of corps make it a virtual impossibility.
Did it ever occur to you that CCP sets up these sites with no gates as a way of balancing the risk and rewards because of how easy it is for you to know when / if there is some one in system you need to be concerned about?
Just so there is no confusion I will repeat myself. No you cannot have a new class of special sites that you can run in near 100% safety. But you did not read when I told you they have them in Fac War space, and you would be wrong I did read that and I simply do not care since the 2 are not related. If you want sites like that go fly in fac war space. |
Inslander Wessette
Killers of Paranoid Souls Imminent Threat
28
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Posted - 2016.04.13 14:17:44 -
[5] - Quote
Zamyslinski wrote:watch local and intel channels cuz i think you simply got ganked and it has nothing to do with the sov mehcanics :>
watching local has nothing to with someone opening a cyno next to me :) . Watching local when local spikes and losing is different form someone opening a covert cyno next to you . I wish watching local and using dscan were useful tools against covert cynos .
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Inslander Wessette
Killers of Paranoid Souls Imminent Threat
28
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Posted - 2016.04.13 14:24:31 -
[6] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:Big bad nul sec player got ganked doing a site now they need more safety. No you cannot have a new class of special sites that you can run in near 100% safety.
High sec players face the reality of being ganked every single time they un-dock a ship why should you be any different? And you have the added advantage that it is extremely easy for you to set up your contacts / overview / local so you can easily identify when you have someone in system with you that you need to be aware of, in high sec they cannot do this simply because the shear number of corps make it a virtual impossibility.
Did it ever occur to you that CCP sets up these sites with no gates as a way of balancing the risk and rewards because of how easy it is for you to know when / if there is some one in system you need to be concerned about?
Just so there is no confusion I will repeat myself. No you cannot have a new class of special sites that you can run in near 100% safety. But you did not read when I told you they have them in Fac War space, and you would be wrong I did read that and I simply do not care since the 2 are not related. If you want sites like that go fly in fac war space.
Balancing risk on a 10 mil port site is no reward for losing my ship on continuous basis to covert cynos . Also i'm not sure how you compare highsec ganking to covert cynos . The only way to prevent a covert cyno drop is for me to have a even bigger back up on stand by on continual basis . And simple watching dscan is more than enuf to prevent your self from ganking in high sec . Such is not the case with covert cynos .
And like i said its not about site running at all . For all i care the site can give 0 isk while it generates Military index to keep the ADMs high . |
Inslander Wessette
Killers of Paranoid Souls Imminent Threat
28
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Posted - 2016.04.13 14:31:58 -
[7] - Quote
Zamyslinski wrote:watch local and intel channels cuz i think you simply got ganked and it has nothing to do with the sov mehcanics :>
The concern here is not about watching intel chat . In the case of a hired contract to take over sov by mercenaries .
An example scenario is .
A small alliance holds sov over 3 systems with high ADMs . Its relatively easy to place covert cynos in all these 3 systems and there by reducing the ADMs over time . With drop of ADMs creating huge vulnerability windows .
Yes i could have a back up for 4 hrs during my prime time/vul window but after that . yeah . Basically stay docked untill the fleet goes back up in 20 hrs .
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Inslander Wessette
Killers of Paranoid Souls Imminent Threat
28
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Posted - 2016.04.13 14:59:35 -
[8] - Quote
Sal Askiras wrote:Posting in a stealth "Cloaky Campers are EVIL!!!!" thread.
Cloaky camping is not the issue here . The problem i am addressing are covert cynos and camping with them . Cloaky camping is mechanic i enjoy in wormhole space and highsec wars where the camper cannot lite a cyno and his back up actually has to show up at the gate or wormhole and it always gives me a window to either kill him or neut/jam him before his back up shows up .lol atleast there is some counterplay for me to do something .
When 15 bombers and 3 widows show up on grid in moments notice .And like i said cloaky camping was really not related to sov at all in dominion sov . Cloaky camping with covert cynos was jus denial of isk, which can be obtained by other ways . But this is denial of Sov by griefing on the system untill the ADMs crack .
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Sal Askiras
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
6
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Posted - 2016.04.13 16:28:50 -
[9] - Quote
Inslander Wessette wrote:Sal Askiras wrote:Posting in a stealth "Cloaky Campers are EVIL!!!!" thread. Cloaky camping is not the issue here . The problem i am addressing are covert cynos and camping with them . Cloaky camping is mechanic i enjoy in wormhole space and highsec wars where the camper cannot lite a cyno and his back up actually has to show up at the gate or wormhole and it always gives me a window to either kill him or neut/jam him before his back up shows up .lol atleast there is some counterplay for me to do something . When 15 bombers and 3 widows show up on grid in moments notice .And like i said cloaky camping was really not related to sov at all in dominion sov . Cloaky camping with covert cynos was jus denial of isk, which can be obtained by other ways . But this is denial of Sov by griefing on the system untill the ADMs crack .
That is precisely why its a cloaky camping complaint. Cloaky camping is different in a WH because there is no local. In Null Sec, you can see the guy in local, so you get nervous and don't go out and Rat for your ADMs. The fact that he has a cyno is irrelevant. Any ship can have a cyno, and you should EXPECT any ship in null sec to have a cyno.
Redundant thread. Go see the cloaky camping thread that's stickied at the top of the forum. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1944
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Posted - 2016.04.13 16:53:42 -
[10] - Quote
If your null alliance is so bad that it can't eradicate what you portray as a continual BLOPs infestation, then perhaps you should find a better one. If you are so unimportant to your alliance that they can't be bothered w/ making your ratting area safe, then perhaps you should be more useful to them (or seek a better alliance).
In a lot of null alliances it works like this:
* you're just a ratting hump that doesn't contribute to the alliance/corp, but just rats and complains, then the alliance/corp doesn't really care when one of their no name members gets ganked.
* you're a key player in the corp/alliance and everyone knows and respects you - when you get ganked it matters and things happen.
* you're a douche (or exhibit some form of social malfunction) the alliance/corp at best doesn't care if you get ganked and at worst secretly called in the assbeating for their own enjoyment.
Bottom line - you're not happy. It's either because you are bad at something or your corp/alliance are bad at something. You have a couple of options:
1. Get in a better alliance 2. Find folks that actually like you 3. (the best one) Set those BLOPs assholios up w/ a counter drop and trade your ratting BS for ganking several billions in BLOPs BS. You know.... get your lazy butt in gear and fight back (it amazes me how often fighting back is overlooked). 4. (the worst option) Find a game that better suits you.
What you shouldn't do is lobby to change the game in favor of your pve habit at the expense of some other groups pvp habit. It's a PVP game - SHOOT BACK with whatever force is necessary. |
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3200
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Posted - 2016.04.13 17:48:24 -
[11] - Quote
Aside from the usual 'remove local and nerf cloaks' and covert ships are weak arguments, having crap adm's doesnt change the fact that your alliance controls when you're structures are vulnerable. You should still be able to turn up for the MULTIPLE Entosis contests.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Vic Jefferson
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
998
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Posted - 2016.04.14 02:27:05 -
[12] - Quote
This. Again.
Bait them out, and destroy their blops gang. The tools are there, and your game experience is what you make of them. Blopsers typically really hate when the hunter, becomes the hunted.
Ratting in null is already hilariously safe. The game is forced to have cloaky camping and cynos as an option to provide any modicum of danger due to how strong local combined with intel channels is.
DED sites are okay as gated, as those actually have a reward at the end that can be taken from you - you have to deal with aggressors if they show up. Anoms on the other hand, you can get safe and your rats will be right there, waiting for you.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM XI
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
800
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Posted - 2016.04.14 04:43:01 -
[13] - Quote
Inslander Wessette wrote: losing my ship on continuous basis to covert cynos . In nul sec those ships with covert cynos may be able to hide from your eyes and your scanners etc but there is no way in hell they can hide from local, so looking at the presented evidence along with a few simply widely known facts and it quickly becomes obvious that the problem here is you and not game mechanics. The rest leads me to this section of your post.
Inslander Wessette wrote:And simple watching dscan is more than enuf to prevent your self from ganking in high sec . Such is not the case with covert cynos . You keep whinning about the cynos, if that is what you are looking for then you are a failure as a nul sec player and to be honest deserve to get blown up repeatedly. You should be looking at local and the entries in it and given your stated problem with covert cynos if anything that is not blue shows up then you best be on your hobby horse and on the way out of system, because that is the safe thing to do. If you have neutrals or reds showing up in local and you choose to ignore them and get killed as a result that is your problem and it does not require any actions on CCP's part especially creating these new site just fro you.
I see here that you have the whole D-Scan is all you need to be safe in high sec, and that proves that essentially you have no idea what you are talking about. As I write this I am working through a first level 4 mission with a friend so I have lots of time to look around since he is doing the heavy work and I am nothing more than a safety net. Setting D-Scan to about 2 AU and there are more than 20 ships listed among the POS clutter and there is a set of conbat probes listed as well. In other words a pretty average day in this area of high sec, and the answer is no it is not this specific character that is in space So are those 20 plus ships friend or foe? Since this is a mission area are those 20 ships mission runners or those out looking to kill mission runners? Or are they simply players passing through the system on their way to somewhere else? Is the person with those combat probes using them for general scanning so they can see ships as well as other things? Are they like a corp mate of mine and using them to find and collect the forgotten drones that littler high sec? Or do they belong to someone hunting mission runners? So one could turn to local for some help but then there are 59 characters listed and all of them are white. No red, no yellow, nothing to indicate if they are a real threat of just other players ding what ever they do.
But let's get back to you and recap. Bad people are able to jump into the system with you. Those bad people are able to find you in the system, possibly needing to use probes to accomplish it. They are able to warp to your location. They are able to find just the right spot and then light the cyno. Other bad people are able to lock onto and jump to that cyno. They are then able to uncloak and lock you. And they do ALL of this BEFORE you even notice them in local. And not only did they do it once but they do it repeatedly. And you expect us to have sympathy for you and support your call for nearly 100% safe sites.
Not going to happen is how I would respond so as before I say no to your idea. |
Iain Cariaba
2916
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Posted - 2016.04.14 05:59:21 -
[14] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:call for nearly 100% safe sites. This isn't a call for nearly 100% safe sites. It's a call for totally 100% safe sites.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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Olmeca Gold
Pleonexium Sustainable Whaling Inc.
6
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Posted - 2016.04.14 10:31:30 -
[15] - Quote
As the null carebear you have local, you have intel channels, you have third party maps where you place afk cloaky alts to your own systems and map hostiles in your region, hell those programs even warn you when someone is in your blops range.
At this point, as a whaler, I %100 confirm all the people that I am able to catch WITHOUT cloaky camping their system are complete idiots who could have done only 1 out of 100 things otherwise to not get caught. And the more people get ganked the smarter they get, meanwhile we really dont have much leeway in game mechanics to improve our hunting.
Now the only way to catch non-complete idiots is cloaky camp their system. An small size pve alliance has 40 systems. To lock it down completely you need 40 cloaky alts. Those would take 50 bil per month to sustain. It would take 40 non-afk people or a few people with very powerful FCs that can handle all those clients. Plus combat toons/ships to take your ships down. Plus the value of blopses you lose when you get counterdropped.
Meanwhile if a cloaky alt is camping your system you more or less know which group they belong to. You can always be prepared and bait them. A properly set bait works almost %100 of the time. You can also stop ratting and watch the opposing group bleed tens of billions per month just to cloaky camp your alliance. You must lose alot of ships to them per month for them to loot even the PLEX money for the cloaky alts. It is almost never sustainable. If it was, then you would see everyone doing it everywhere, until nobody is able to rat in null. I know just 1 guy who can do it and sustain even though it still costs him money.
While it is in itself a shame that people has to resort to committing secondary accounts to many systems all the day to actually get kills, you want more security. Meanwhile you might as well ask for more reward for the risk you take. If you argued that the ISK you make compared to the hisec mission/incursion runner is not good enough a reward for you for the risk you take than I would support you. Thats the way eve becomes a sandbox and content is created for everyone. Instead of giving people more means for %100 risk free dank ISK, people should be pushed to take more risk for way better rewards. Make null even less safer, but make it worth taking the risk. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2758
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Posted - 2016.04.14 12:22:35 -
[16] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:This. Again. Bait them out, and destroy their blops gang. The tools are there, and your game experience is what you make of them. Blopsers typically really hate when the hunter, becomes the hunted. Ratting in null is already hilariously safe. The game is forced to have cloaky camping and cynos as an option to provide any modicum of danger due to how strong local combined with intel channels is. DED sites are okay as gated, as those actually have a reward at the end that can be taken from you - you have to deal with aggressors if they show up. Anoms on the other hand, you can get safe and your rats will be right there, waiting for you.
People won't do this or anything else in the name of ISK/hours and efficiency. You would prevent 95% of the hunters from killing you if you are 5 in the same anom because he knows there is no way he will live through the dps of 5 guys. The problem is, everyone know this ends up being less isk/hours so they'd rather do them with a single pilot and risk getting ganked. Well actually, they'd rather not get ganked while also doing it solo. It's like they want to get the cake and eat it too or something. |
Inslander Wessette
Killers of Paranoid Souls Imminent Threat
28
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Posted - 2016.04.26 12:15:12 -
[17] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:Inslander Wessette wrote: losing my ship on continuous basis to covert cynos . In nul sec those ships with covert cynos may be able to hide from your eyes and your scanners etc but there is no way in hell they can hide from local, so looking at the presented evidence along with a few simply widely known facts and it quickly becomes obvious that the problem here is you and not game mechanics. The rest leads me to this section of your post. Inslander Wessette wrote:And simple watching dscan is more than enuf to prevent your self from ganking in high sec . Such is not the case with covert cynos . You keep whinning about the cynos, if that is what you are looking for then you are a failure as a nul sec player and to be honest deserve to get blown up repeatedly. You should be looking at local and the entries in it and given your stated problem with covert cynos if anything that is not blue shows up then you best be on your hobby horse and on the way out of system, because that is the safe thing to do. If you have neutrals or reds showing up in local and you choose to ignore them and get killed as a result that is your problem and it does not require any actions on CCP's part especially creating these new site just fro you. . |
Echo Mande
68
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Posted - 2016.04.26 13:08:01 -
[18] - Quote
This seems to be a 'Nullsec sov holders have put their sov to use or raiders have an easier time of it' issue. IIRC this has been debated a lot over the years. I think the Mittani posted something called 'Farms and Fields' years ago that touched on this.
How about something like the following: - Nullsec sov holding alliances get a number of special sites to run based on their total membership. - The special sites (I don't know/care what type they are) are spread out over all the alliance's sov but can only be probed by those with 'permission', though site runners can be probed as normal. - The percentage of sites run is one factor determining how easy it is for raiders to make a system vulnerable. This vulnerability calculation could be made on a per-system, per-constellation or overall basis. - An alliance can 'charter' other alliances, allowing non-holders to probe the special sites. Whether the charter includes explicit per-member or per-day/month bills could be debated later.
This could lead to a situation where a small alliance could hold a few systems by staying busy running their sites and a large alliance could do the same for a region. However this could also lead a small alliance (or a corp-shedding alliance) to overextend themselves and be forced to reduce their holdings unless they can attract renters.
Just some semi-coherrent thoughts, commentary is welcome. |
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