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Author	Topic
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2007.02.19 16:54:00 - [61] Originally by: Drakma Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch Originally by: Drakma You may find it fun paying CCP to beta test their software, but others don't. Quit then and stop whining if its not fun for you. Go back in your troll hole. Moles live in holes trolls live under bridges Never again are you allowed to complain about not training for combat
Vansard	Posted - 2007.02.19 16:56:00 - [62] I'm also after a documentation of GM rulings. This can be as simple as a list of precedence & decisions of GMs. This would serve both the community as well as the GM and would be a good step into more precise ruling & decision transparency. I vote for establishing the EVE Precedential Law!
Herculite Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.19 16:59:00 - [63] Originally by: Noshi I have to agree with drakma on this, every mmorpg has an online guide to detailed walkthroughs, CCPs is too outdated and its barely relevant. CCP relies on its playerbase to detail the game mechanics and present the finds on this forums. For example, the mining guide from that guy in STK Scientfic. The most comprehensive explanation of mining in game. There are countless others. At least compile them into one main resource area instead of trying to scour the forums for answers. Sheesh all you get around here is BOD empire alt smack lol. /Noshi There isn't a MMO I've played that had a current and up to date documentation. DAOC? Nope WoW? Nope EQ? Nope Jumpgate? Nope Planetside? Nope A few patches and any offical guides and the like tend to be meaningless or even completely wrong. I still remember my DAOC nightshade being called a 'fearsome caster' or something like that
R'adeh Gallente Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.02.19 17:10:00 - [64] Originally by: Kam SingDu'k Lol, I can't believe people are flaming Drakma for this suggestion. The thread was in the COAD section of the forums before You know, the section of the forums where EVERY thread starter will get flamed at LEAST once because some idiot feel the need to flame in order to get others to acknowledge their presence I wish people would think before typing. Anyway, I agree some additional documentation would make life a lot more approachable for newer players. How many new players know that if one of their wrecks gets shot, their aggro timers automatically get set back to 15min? Or how they can create an alliance, and why? And, and, and... Sure, there's players guides for some of those subjects...thanks to those who took the time to write those (probing, exploration, etc.). However, it shouldn't take CCP too long to update their original player guide. A lot of things in there are out-dated such as the factory guide. _______________________________________________ My views are my own and I don't represent my corp.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.19 17:39:00 - [65] Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch Originally by: Sentinel Eeex You think EVE is "complex"? As far as games go you'd be hard pressed to come up with others as "complex". Compared to brain surgery I'd say it's not complex. It's all relative. EvE isnt the type of environment that needs detailed technical documentation. It's a game. Part of it's charm for me is the learning through experience. Would a detailed manual be nice? Shrug yes, I'm sure it would in an ideal world. But when CCP has a personnel budget of "x" and a lot of jobs that need to be done I have no qualms with "the player manual" being shoved down the priority list. This is a game where the players demand new content regularly. Changes happen so quickly a traditional manual would never be up to date. They do not need to keep and update a complete record of all bugs, errors, exploits, and mistakes. They need to keep a log of intended behaviour. That way, if we think something is wrong, we can check and see if its not. POSs are an intergral part of the game, and we might not need to know all the bugs with them, but we damn well ought to know how they should behave. Just like i know that if i double click in space my ship should not fly the opposite direction. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Dmian Gallente Starline Engineering Corporation	Posted - 2007.02.19 18:42:00 - [66] It's so sad people gets this aggresive at a simple suggestion... Anyways, to the OP. I've thought about EVE documentation a lot, being that I work at the digital dissemination unit of a big institution. Documentation may seem trivial to some players. These are the players that can barely take the game tutorial. They prefer to investigate the game as they play, rather than read a manual. They learn from trial and error. For other players documentation may mean the difference between staying or leaving the game. I, for example, am the kind of people that likes to read and analyse before I say or do something. For developers and GMs a good documentation may mean less time spent replying FAQs. And less complaints from users. Documentation is important, no matter what people say. You surely can learn from trial and error, but there's always information that you won't get that way. I've learned very important information by reading the outdated EVE manual. So far, the sources of information you can get are: The EVE manual (dating from the Exodus release) The Item database Documents in the Backstory section Players guides (tons of them, including maps) The in-game tutorial The problem with EVE in particular is that is has a very short development cycle, that brings problems to the documentation. I believe CCP should seriously think about a documentation cell. There are lots of ways to document EVE and keep it up to date. One solution that I've think of is storing (it may probably be in that way right now) most information in a database. Every time something is updated an XML is generated. By applying a series of style sheets (XSL-FO) several PDFs are generated. For online purposes the data can be retireves dynamically. If the information is properly structured it's just a matter of having someone there to write new changes and link the appropiate media files. Of course, it's not something trivial, but is reachable, specially for a company with such good technical resources as CCP. I hope that someone at CCP reads this, as I feel lots of threads are just ignored.
Opium	Posted - 2007.02.19 20:35:00 - [67] leave it the way it is... this is the one part of the game ccp is doing perfectly as planned . which is to have an open ended space game where ur discoverys by ur character could be groundbreaking for the game.. u are not supposed to know what all the cosmos agents even mean , that way u foind out threu friends or heresay or by urself and are ahead of all others in the game maybe. fleet fights titans pos's soverieghtny u arnt supposed to know exactly how it works u have to figure it out take soverieghnty defend whatever then u or others will know some of what can be done. space the final frontier.... all that crap, seek explore discover ,this is the area they have done perfectly it creates curiousity and interest.there are no documents or guides because it hasnt been discovered yet...i say open jove and put 2 other galaxys on the other side of that. expand were gettin crowded . and dont tell any of the plans or anyhting let us dicover it all
Soporo	Posted - 2007.02.19 21:40:00 - [68] Document, ACCURATELY the numbers and procedures for Invention please CCP, assuming you know the answers...we should NOT have to rely on excellent people like Lady Noir to spend her time and rescources doing what what you should provide us.
hotgirl933	Posted - 2007.02.19 22:23:00 - [69] eve wiki needs to be expanded but its a long term project
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.02.19 22:29:00 - [70] Originally by: Vansard I'm also after a documentation of GM rulings. This can be as simple as a list of precedence & decisions of GMs. This would serve both the community as well as the GM and would be a good step into more precise ruling & decision transparency. I vote for establishing the EVE Precedential Law! /seconded. So far it hasn't been build for fear of publicizing exploitable bugs, but now sadly it is needed as the playerbase has little faith in the GM decisions, and witout a non anndotical base it is hard to restore that, as most people whould report his case in the best possible light for his position, and the ruling against them in the worst possible one, conveniently forgotting key points.

Tarkan Kador Amarr PanTarkan Kador Holdings	Posted - 2007.02.20 02:07:00 - [71] Edited by: Tarkan Kador on 20/02/2007 02:11:46 This is why we need documentation: New CEO: Member 1, can you take that ore in Division 1 and bring it to the factory at Yarebap? Member 1: I need access to Division 1. [new CEO presses buttons he thinks might work] New CEO: Is it good now? Member 1: No...hey do you even know what you are doing? New CEO: I'm working on it. Member 2: Its real simple, just go to our names, hit "director," and we are good to go :) Member 1: C'mon! I have to log in an hour. [New CEO just clicks the box on "director," not knowing what a director does] New CEO: Okay Member 1, can you access Division 1? Member 1: Yeah...but there are no minerals there. New CEO: Are you sure? Its right next to the crate with all our loots. Member 1: Nothing in Division 1, or Division 2, 3, or any of them. [New CEO panics] New CEO: Um...do you see Division 5? Member 1: Um...yeah...like every other division. New CEO: Do you see our Large Armor Repairer II BPO in Division 5? Member 1: ... New CEO: Member 2...do you see our BPO in Division 5? [New CEO gets a corpmail informing New CEO of Member IIs departure] New CEO: I think we have a problem. The CEO will learn from this experience, just like the person who fills up their 2 stroke snowblower with regular gasolene will learn that you don't fill a 2 stroke with straight gasolene. Lucky for we snowblower owners though, we have manuals to tell us what to do. We don't have that in EVE though, which is like learning how to use a snowblower only though learning not how to use a snowblower. Which of course means that we have to destroy a lot of snowblowers, lose a lot of fingers, get rushed to the hospitals, and generally spend more time fixing our snowblower than using it. I can understand why a lot of you are so against official documentation, but the reason you are against it has nothing to do with good game design. Good games are like good snowblowers, but if you fill even the best snowblower with bad gas, you'll never know how good or bad the snowblower can be. I mean, even a religion as deep and mysterious as Christianity, or Islam has proper documentation. If religions like those see the need for documentation, then EVE certainly does. Those who oppose official documentation are like the doctors who attach severed fingers, the repairmen who make a living by fixing things, and the salesmen who sell new snowblowers. You make a far better living off of ignorance, rather than knowledge. And in a game like EVE, where its much too easy to be swindled, its in your interest to keep as many players as ignorant of the features as possible, so you can swindle them early, often, and extensively. Please resize your signature picture to be no more than 24000 bytes, 400x120 pixels. - Devil (mods@ccpgames.com)
Jerusalem Man Farmers Union	Posted - 2007.02.20 03:20:00 - [72] Originally by: Dmian ... So far, the sources of information you can get are: The EVE manual (dating from the Exodus release) The Item database Documents in the Backstory section Players guides (tons of them, including maps) The in-game tutorial I wonder how many people realise we have an EVE Knowledgebase (under EVE Support on the homepage), I only found it quite recently. Originally by: Soporo Document, ACCURATELY the numbers and procedures for Invention please CCP, assuming you know the answers...we should NOT have to rely on excellent people like Lady Noir to spend her time and rescources doing what what you should provide us. Invention It doesn't have everything but it is a good starting point for looking up specific questions. If CCP could keep this up to date and fill it out with a bit more detail (eg I wanted to know how corp tax works) it would go a long way towards the ops request. Between this and the sticky in the EVE New Citizens Q&A forum which contains the Official Players Guide and links to a lot of the guides I'd say they do a fair job documentation.
Dmian Gallente Starline Engineering Corporation	Posted - 2007.02.20 08:19:00 - [73] Edited by: Dmian on 20/02/2007 08:19:31 Originally by: Jerusalem Man I wonder how many people realise we have an EVE Knowledgebase (under EVE Support on the homepage), I only found it quite recently. (...) Invention It doesn't have everything but it is a good starting point for looking up specific questions. If CCP could keep this up to date and fill it out with a bit more detail (eg I wanted to know how corp tax works) it would go a long way towards the ops request. Between this and the sticky in the EVE New Citizens Q&A forum which contains the Official Players Guide and links to a lot of the guides I'd say they do a fair job documentation. That's correct, but the sticky in the EVE New Citizens Q&A forum collects guides made by players, not CCP. For example the excellent Miners' Guide is made by Halada and the Maps are made by Ombey. The outdated CCP Official guide is there, but the rest is user created. The knowledgebase may be useful if someone has made the appropiate question and if it has been replyed. What I mean is that CCP made and effort to document in the past, but for some strange reason they abbandoned it. And the players (with their limitations in resources, time, and knowledge) took the time to cover some of the holes. But, as the game is growing and the player base gets bigger (and if CCP is serious about having lots of new players, and it seems they are) they need proper documentation to instruct those new players. I still belive they should seriously think about creating a documentation cell. It will really pay off. We need and updated Official guide. We need an official miners guide. We need an official combat guide. We need an official missions guide. We need official maps. We need an official career counseling guide. A guide to weapons and ships and how to fit them, etc. CCP can't (and shouldn't) rely always on used driven content for documentation. It has limits. It's not complete. If they managed to create a wonderful guide for Exodus I don't know why they are not able to create one for Revelations. And create more documentation. The game is becoming more and more complex with each release. It's very important that new players be able to have some guide to help them to face this huge and complex universe. If not, some players may feel frustrated against the 3 years or so knowled other players and alliance have on the game and feel they have nothing to do here (and just plain leave). Regards.
CodeR70 Gallente The Dutch	Posted - 2007.02.20 09:45:00 - [74] Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch How do you document something as complex as EvE? Well, at least you can start to make an effort on it! It really annoys the hell out of me that they wont even bother with these things. The Wiki was talked about a long long time ago, there was even a job offer for that. So where is it? The online manual is pre-RMR. The item database is crap. At least the knowledge base makes some sense but I bet it will be out of date soon. And thank god that the community is willing to make an effort and post some good guides in the forums. These people should be paid IMHO. Instead that devs play the game, they should put in some effort to write some stuff down. It's what you get paid for as well! My boss tells me that over and over again. And yes, as a developer, I hate writing documentation as well. But work is not always "fun". And it's the only way my users understand what I so carefully created.
CodeR70 Gallente The Dutch	Posted - 2007.02.20 10:02:00 - [75] Originally by: Mr Pacman This is true for well documented systems. However, Eve is hardly a well documented program. After all, CCP has admitted they don't fully understand why billboards work the way they do simply because the person that programmed them left. Which is the whole point. And if this is really true then it's time for new management (not devs). It's pretty convenient to point to people who left and people who didn't manage to take over their jobs. But it's something you can avoid at all by DOCUMENTING your system. Both from a technical as user point of views. On the other hand, a good written program is almost self documenting. But for some kind of reason pressured!! developers end up witting spaghetti-code. Source QA is the absolute foundation of your product. A consistent coding style is the best way to start. BTW, I don't think this is valid for CCP, maybe partially. It's just an observation during my time as a developer myself. And I also know we are not living in a perfect world.
Tarkan Kador Amarr PanTarkan Kador Holdings	Posted - 2007.02.20 17:43:00 - [76] Edited by: Tarkan Kador on 20/02/2007 17:39:55 You know, just because rules and systems change, doesn't mean that a rulebook is pointless. Before the internet, we played on tabletop. We had rulebooks then, and updates peroidically in addendums or supplements. But think of a big, 300+ page hardbound rulebook, Games Workshop style, filled with glossy pictures, loads of artwork, fiction, chronicles, etc. That becomes more than just a "rulebook." It becomes a work of art in its own right. Please resize your signature picture to be no more than 24000 bytes, 400x120 pixels. - Devil (mods@ccpgames.com)

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