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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
7515
|
Posted - 2016.04.22 16:59:41 -
[1] - Quote
Remember how great and wonderful it was when wreck HP started to reflect what kind of ship it was and thus made it harder to pop freighter wrecks?
Remember, there are two maxims that I have brought up for years about this game:
- when the "sandbox" becomes more about hitting kids over the head with the pail and shovel than about sand, there will be intervention no matter what anybody thinks. - when one mechanic becomes so overused that it starts to defy logic, something is going to change.
Insurance payouts for criminal acts defied logic. Old school gankers even admitted this. A freighter wreck having the same HP as a shuttle wreck also defied logic. Wreck shooters and anti-gankers admitted this. (Shooting certain wrecks in missions was necessary for keeping intel about your mission from showing up on d-scan)
So.... is it not admissible that being able to endlessly bump a ship (while waiting for criminal timers to expire.... oh oh) defied logic?
If I, as a pedestrian, has every right to be on a sidewalk, and can occupy space, started to block people with my body, what starts out as "pardon me!" and "excuse me" eventually, as I say block an entrance to a building or park or just block an entire sidewalk, result in the cops showing up.
To say that should not happen, that I would have a right to do that, or "hey, I'm a pedestrian on the sidewalk, I'm not breaking the law!" would defy logic. No?
Thus, it would appear that there are going to be some changes to bumping.
Will we try to change reality with our opinions and exhibit double standards like a college student or will be concede to logic in this?
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
271
|
Posted - 2016.04.22 17:56:35 -
[2] - Quote
Interesting. I wonder if being pointed resets the 3 minute timer |
Sasha Nemtsov
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
62
|
Posted - 2016.04.22 18:35:05 -
[3] - Quote
Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:Interesting. I wonder if being pointed resets the 3 minute timer
Suicide-Pointers FTW...
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Lady Ayeipsia
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1036
|
Posted - 2016.04.22 23:58:37 -
[4] - Quote
Sasha Nemtsov wrote:Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:Interesting. I wonder if being pointed resets the 3 minute timer Suicide-Pointers FTW...
Just fit point on the ship ganking. The only thing this really means is the bank fleet must be ready to go when bumping starts and those who only bump in the hopes of extorting isk to stop will have to try something new. Ganks will still happen. |
Mike Adoulin
Adolescent Radioactive Pirate Hamsters
1713
|
Posted - 2016.04.23 03:08:32 -
[5] - Quote
*reads the reddit thingy*
CODE disbanded recently?
lol
Ahh, reddit. Never change.
Everything in EVE is a trap.
And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)
You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.
Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
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Tyyler DURden
Mordechai and Sons Distribution Co.
234
|
Posted - 2016.04.23 03:53:42 -
[6] - Quote
I need to get to the bottom of this.... who was cheering yesterday and for what were they cheering?
Tyyler DURden says "use soap"
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
7519
|
Posted - 2016.04.23 04:19:08 -
[7] - Quote
Mike Adoulin wrote:*reads the reddit thingy*
CODE disbanded recently?
lol
Ahh, reddit. Never change.
Well it has been a bad month for CODE.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Mike Adoulin
Adolescent Radioactive Pirate Hamsters
1713
|
Posted - 2016.04.23 05:37:59 -
[8] - Quote
Yet another 'Downfall' link.
How trendy.
Everything in EVE is a trap.
And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)
You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.
Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1341
|
Posted - 2016.04.23 07:41:51 -
[9] - Quote
It is about time, that was about as risk free PvP that you could get and CCP in all likelihood lost a fair few paying hisec casual players over this. I came across quite a few players who had been bumped for over an hour, one for over two hours and two who I spoke to were spitting mad at CCP for the crap mechanic that enabled them to be effectively held in place without any come back in game.
This is a neat solution that still enables ganking, but stops the stupidity of no risk PvP if corretly implemented as there are still some questions on how it works (CCP another thing that you have got right recently, like the removal of the watch list. ) In terms of three minutes and how the timer works, I hope that the timer works on the first bump and does not get re-set from any use of scrams or disruptors, because this will force the gankers to have their gank fleets close to where they intend to strike therefore enabling smart players to actually scout for risk especially important now that the watch list is defunct. I think that the removal of the watch list had an impact on this decision too.
As for the gankers, I am not gloating, for a long time I think you had it too easy even though you also made a great success with the application of resources and your sheer organisation skills, but the mechanics were always in your favour even when there was some tightening. The true mark of your skill will be how you adjust to this, though other organisational and funding issues may get in the way of that. Sadly I expect that if you fail all the blame will be put on a nerf of bumping not the loss of Goon funding, disappearance of certain key leaders and the turmoil within your ranks and of course some improvement in the performance of the AG players who I salute.
I just hope that we see an improvement in the retention and development of casual players due to this, though the war dec system with blanket war decs is something that needs to be looked at in detail, I still hope that Citadels and the new Industrial structures will change things in this regards for both sides, this is a challenge for CCP because some of the most committed and fun players to watch are hisec mercs, the drama between different personalities is rather great to watch and provides significant fun content.
Ella's Snack bar. The Hisec sandbox is basically a themepark for gankers
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
7519
|
Posted - 2016.04.23 08:45:45 -
[10] - Quote
Mike Adoulin wrote:Yet another 'Downfall' link. How trendy.
The owner of that content complained about it being used for all those parodies.
You know what the response was?
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Gunrunner1775
Interstellar Engineering and Electronics INC
57
|
Posted - 2016.04.23 09:16:26 -
[11] - Quote
the real question...
doest he timer completely reset at the time the target is pointed...
or is the timer "put on hold"...
or will the attacker have to keep the target pointed constantly until the target is destroyed
if the timer is reset, then this is just a minor cosmetic change and will only slightly alter the tactics
if the tiemr is not reset and target must be constantly pointed.. this is a game changer across the entire board |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1343
|
Posted - 2016.04.23 09:32:47 -
[12] - Quote
Gunrunner1775 wrote:the real question...
doest he timer completely reset at the time the target is pointed...
or is the timer "put on hold"...
or will the attacker have to keep the target pointed constantly until the target is destroyed
if the timer is reset, then this is just a minor cosmetic change and will only slightly alter the tactics
if the tiemr is not reset and target must be constantly pointed.. this is a game changer across the entire board
I hope this:
will the attacker have to keep the target pointed constantly until the target is destroyed
Ella's Snack bar. The Hisec sandbox is basically a themepark for gankers
|
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
7519
|
Posted - 2016.04.23 09:59:47 -
[13] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:It is about time, that was about as risk free PvP that you could get and CCP in all likelihood lost a fair few paying hisec casual players over this. I came across quite a few players who had been bumped for over an hour, one for over two hours and two who I spoke to were spitting mad at CCP for the crap mechanic that enabled them to be effectively held in place without any come back in game.
This is a neat solution that still enables ganking, but stops the stupidity of no risk PvP if corretly implemented as there are still some questions on how it works (CCP another thing that you have got right recently, like the removal of the watch list. ) In terms of three minutes and how the timer works, I hope that the timer works on the first bump and does not get re-set from any use of scrams or disruptors, because this will force the gankers to have their gank fleets close to where they intend to strike therefore enabling smart players to actually scout for risk especially important now that the watch list is defunct. I think that the removal of the watch list had an impact on this decision too.
As for the gankers, I am not gloating, for a long time I think you had it too easy even though you also made a great success with the application of resources and your sheer organisation skills, but the mechanics were always in your favour even when there was some tightening. The true mark of your skill will be how you adjust to this, though other organisational and funding issues may get in the way of that. Sadly I expect that if you fail all the blame will be put on a nerf of bumping not the loss of Goon funding, disappearance of certain key leaders and the turmoil within your ranks and of course some improvement in the performance of the AG players who I salute.
I just hope that we see an improvement in the retention and development of casual players due to this, though the war dec system with blanket war decs is something that needs to be looked at in detail, I still hope that Citadels and the new Industrial structures will change things in this regards for both sides, this is a challenge for CCP because some of the most committed and fun players to watch are hisec mercs, the drama between different personalities is rather great to watch and provides significant fun content.
If they can make a bumped ship warp off after three minutes, can they make the ship that was bumping it go suspect?
Were it up to meGäó .....
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1344
|
Posted - 2016.04.23 10:11:49 -
[14] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:If they can make a bumped ship warp off after three minutes, can they make the ship that was bumping it go suspect? Were it up to meGäó .....
I would say no, first of all that would open up a whole can of worms and the objective is not to make it impossible to gank, it is good content, the problem was that it was too easy and too intrusive against casual players. There has to be a balance in terms of the game and this looks like a good move as long as only a scram or disruptor will stop them from warping after 3 minutes.
If the timer resets then yes make the bumper go suspect...
Ella's Snack bar. The Hisec sandbox is basically a themepark for gankers
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
2403
|
Posted - 2016.04.23 11:34:04 -
[15] - Quote
Sasha Nemtsov wrote:Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:Interesting. I wonder if being pointed resets the 3 minute timer Suicide-Pointers FTW... Indeed. This is the end of bumping for ransom, but not much else. Real gank fleets already require so many players they will have no problem sacrificing a suicide scram every 3 minutes, and that won't even be necessary if the freighter is truly AFK.
The gankers will carry on as before, hitting the other kids over the head with both pail and shovel as CCP intends for the game to work.
Why Do They Gank?
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Gunrunner1775
Interstellar Engineering and Electronics INC
57
|
Posted - 2016.04.23 11:37:21 -
[16] - Quote
there is a problem with makeing a bumping ship go suspect...
all that crowded space in and around major trade hubs ... accidental pumping constantly takes place...
not a good idea
in reguards to my previous post... i think it will be the "reset the timer" method.... its the most logical and simple solution to use... it prevents the non-stop bumping that lasts for extended periods of time, but does not totaly stop ganking
curious... for those that are non stop spamm clicking the warp-to button in an "oh ****" situation... is each click of the button resetting the timer HAHAHAHAH... that will be a good one to mention when the obvious discussion pops up on the forums |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1345
|
Posted - 2016.04.23 11:57:47 -
[17] - Quote
Gunrunner1775 wrote:there is a problem with makeing a bumping ship go suspect...
all that crowded space in and around major trade hubs ... accidental pumping constantly takes place...
not a good idea
in reguards to my previous post... i think it will be the "reset the timer" method.... its the most logical and simple solution to use... it prevents the non-stop bumping that lasts for extended periods of time, but does not totaly stop ganking
curious... for those that are non stop spamm clicking the warp-to button in an "oh ****" situation... is each click of the button resetting the timer HAHAHAHAH... that will be a good one to mention when the obvious discussion pops up on the forums
Well simply have a counter for 10 bumps and apply it to any ship except a freighter or bowhead or Orca bumping a freighter, bowhead or Orca, yes they could game it with some effort, but what the hell. Like I said I would only suggest this if the timer got re-set by being warp disrupted otherwise I would not do it.
In terms of trying to warp out re-setting the timer, good point, I for one will be testing the hell out of any mechanic they apply to this so not as to get caught out by it. Then I might get my freighter out from under its thick layer of dust...
Ella's Snack bar. The Hisec sandbox is basically a themepark for gankers
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Nofear Alt
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
85
|
Posted - 2016.04.23 13:30:00 -
[18] - Quote
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:Sasha Nemtsov wrote:Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:Interesting. I wonder if being pointed resets the 3 minute timer Suicide-Pointers FTW... Just fit point on the ship ganking. The only thing this really means is the bank fleet must be ready to go when bumping starts and those who only bump in the hopes of extorting isk to stop will have to try something new. Ganks will still happen.
Of course ganks will still happen but this definitely evens up the fight. It was pretty ridiculous that the mechanics allowed players to be tied up for 30 mins + by one ship - as people have said this is a great compromise. Gankers can still do their thing but need to be more organised, and I can see some additional possibilities for AG also
Good work CCP
Alt and proud
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Hannibal Carlisle
Clubs and Diamonds
91
|
Posted - 2016.04.23 15:07:11 -
[19] - Quote
Just curious, but if the bumps are on a freighter that's autopiloting to an out gate (slow boating that last 15km) where does the freighter warp to? I'm not against providing a counter measure to an at keyboard player, but I don't think you should be given special treatment because your ship is large, slow, and boring so you hit autopilot and popped on Netflix. |
Nofear Alt
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
86
|
Posted - 2016.04.23 15:18:42 -
[20] - Quote
Hannibal Carlisle wrote:Just curious, but if the bumps are on a freighter that's autopiloting to an out gate (slow boating that last 15km) where does the freighter warp to? I'm not against providing a counter measure to an at keyboard player, but I don't think you should be given special treatment because your ship is large, slow, and boring so you hit autopilot and popped on Netflix.
Hopefully it only starts when you press warp (I wouldn't imagine it is any other way??) - so an afk person autopiloting to a gate could/should still be bumped for ages
Alt and proud
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
2426
|
Posted - 2016.04.23 15:52:50 -
[21] - Quote
Did they also talk about the buff to ganking which will be obviously paired with this nerf to ganking, as they always do, I mean since they accidentally buffed something for ganking, as Fozzi explained?
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
271
|
Posted - 2016.04.23 17:12:55 -
[22] - Quote
Ether way, seems like freighter ganking will be mostly limited to autopiloters on the landing side of the gate, since you'll still be able to bump a freighter away from the gate for as long as you want. |
Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony The Wraithguard.
253
|
Posted - 2016.04.23 17:45:15 -
[23] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Did they also talk about the buff to ganking which will be obviously paired with this nerf to ganking, as they always do, I mean since they accidentally buffed something for ganking, as Fozzi explained?
Doesn't look like a nerf to ganking. It's a nerf to bumping. |
Mobadder Thworst
Wiking Brigade The Devil's Warrior Alliance
987
|
Posted - 2016.04.23 18:33:17 -
[24] - Quote
I'm with Loyalanon on this one. Elite Dangerous it is. I also tried a game called Perpetuum which is VERY similar to Eve, but with robots. Haven't gotten far enough to try the PVP on it yet.
Between the destruction of hunting tools, this restriction on Ganking, and the entirety of the Retribution patch... I think I can create more funny content elsewhere.
Weirdly, I always thought Loyalanon was Canadian. He really sounds German in this...
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Ozzie Udan
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
405
|
Posted - 2016.04.23 18:38:39 -
[25] - Quote
Code have been ganking close to gate after bumping a freighter for a short , so not going to effect ganking that much if they have numbers
What will effect them more if they start falling apart from the inside ,which seems to be happenings, so let's not blame game changes.
A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head.
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Valkin Mordirc
2037
|
Posted - 2016.04.23 21:24:32 -
[26] - Quote
I honestly don't think that it will hurt that much. For the most part it doesn't hurt to burn a rookie ship with a point on it.
Has the AG community gotten better though? I don't pay attention enough to know. If so, Good on them.
#DeleteTheWeak
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Mobadder Thworst
Wiking Brigade The Devil's Warrior Alliance
989
|
Posted - 2016.04.23 21:45:41 -
[27] - Quote
I wonder if the new 3 minute warp guarantee could be used in conjunction with a bastion module to guarantee an escape.
I'm thinking I let a fleet tackle me, try to warp, then use bastion to turn off tackles and let the jump happen at end of cycle.
Might work? |
Ozzie Udan
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
405
|
Posted - 2016.04.23 21:49:02 -
[28] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:I honestly don't think that it will hurt that much. For the most part it doesn't hurt to burn a rookie ship with a point on it.
Has the AG community gotten better though? I don't pay attention enough to know. If so, Good on them.
I think AG has got a lot better, more people working together, people understanding what to do to hinder ganks, I see small groups stop gank fleets on a regular basis. We had cut out the effects of disinformation from the AG channels too, can't say how.
But the main thing is we have fun doing it, I love logging in and joining a fleet, well done to all of AG for that.
A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head.
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
7521
|
Posted - 2016.04.23 22:16:39 -
[29] - Quote
Mobadder Thworst wrote:I wonder if the new 3 minute warp guarantee could be used in conjunction with a bastion module to guarantee an escape.
I'm thinking I let a fleet tackle me, try to warp, then use bastion to turn off tackles and let the jump happen at end of cycle.
Might work?
I would be curious to see if this is only for freighters then. Also, would the Higgs rig bear any influence on this mechanic?
There is also another issue: not all freighters are bumped out of warp, so nothing will change there, but it appears there will be butt-hurt gankers thinking that all bumping is for ganking. I have heard of numerous cases of people being bumped "just for lulz" without any intention of ganking. The objective in those cases were either ransoming ("I can do this all day. Gimme ISK!") or for the intention of ruining someone's day for no apparent reason. No ganks in those situations but clearly an aggression without consequences to the aggressor which is something that we should all agree on is a bad mechanic.
So even if ganks are taken out of the metric, we can say this is a good move by CCP. And it would appear that they have taken ganks into account in making these changes.
Were it up to me(TM) rigs and modules making the auto-warp variable amongst fits would make it harder to game it.
Meanwhile, as much as auto-warp will affect the ability of gank teams not having their act together, and remove the luxury of keeping a fat target hanging "as long as needed for the criminal timers to expire", AG is not going to benefit from this. Ganks will have to happen faster and the window of the initial report of a freighter getting bumped and the attack will be shorter. Both sides will have to beat a timer. It'll be interesting.
Another thing: if a freighter that is AFK'ing to a gate gets bumped to a distance from the gate that is a warpable-to distance, will it then go into warp to get to the gate again? Is auto-warp "smart" enough for that?
That's something to test when these changes are made.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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John E Normus
New Order Logistics CODE.
787
|
Posted - 2016.04.24 00:55:23 -
[30] - Quote
I just need 1 bear to say CODE is dead.
TIA
Between Ignorance and Wisdom
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