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Adonis Peverell
Republic of Awesome
0
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Posted - 2012.06.08 01:15:00 -
[181] - Quote
+1, I would absolutely love to be able to play solo in null, as these proposed changes would allow. Not to mention the fantastic meta-gaming that this would enable--It would add a much needed level of complexity to sensing, which is now insanely boring. OPs ideas throughout the thread are just stellar. I really hope someone at CCP takes a look at this. |
Mirim Rokstar
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2012.06.08 02:13:00 -
[182] - Quote
Huge +1,
I like the well thougth out ideas, whilst I may not agree with all of them, it fuels debate and discussion, which is great, one thing you mentioned is making some sensors linked to certain races, quick thought, this could be tied into engine trails, each race has it's own engine trail, therefore the code must be there somewhere to differentiate between races at the sensor level.
Anyway, well written and kudos that I spent the time to read a large majority of it :P |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
214
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Posted - 2012.06.08 02:48:00 -
[183] - Quote
some of your ideas are very interesting.. I'm not in favor of any idea which gives a remote chance that you can scan down a cloaked vessel; that is a slippery slope. but really some of your ideas are very well thought out. [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/OldST.jpg[/IMG] |
Svarek
39
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Posted - 2012.06.08 03:05:00 -
[184] - Quote
Wow, these are some of the best ideas I've seen. I love the idea of skill actually entering into scanning. Takes me back to the old submarine games.
+2
I really hope something comes of this. Please read the above post with facetiousness, sarcasm, and irony detectors activated. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1007
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Posted - 2012.06.08 06:20:00 -
[185] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote:some of your ideas are very interesting.. I'm not in favor of any idea which gives a remote chance that you can scan down a cloaked vessel; that is a slippery slope. but really some of your ideas are very well thought out. Slippery slopes can be some of the best rides, though. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Marlona Sky
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
1081
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Posted - 2012.06.08 06:24:00 -
[186] - Quote
I would like to hear a well thought out idea on finding people using normal cloaks, covert cloaks should be off limits though.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Khalia Nestune
Mad Stacks
14
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Posted - 2012.06.08 08:04:00 -
[187] - Quote
I think these are excellent ideas. I'd be happy with just delayed local everywhere!
http://www.mylootyourtears.com |
Merch BAYLOR
New Eden Burns Moist.
3
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Posted - 2012.06.08 08:55:00 -
[188] - Quote
This sounds great. It would make the game really interesting for small corps/alliances, and enable them to be a real threat for large corporations/alliances.
BUT this would require quite some serious work on the dev side, and from the looks of recent patches and 'expansions' they go with little an/or easy to fix things.
We can only dream and hope this vision of your will be taken into consideration. |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
219
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Posted - 2012.06.08 17:12:00 -
[189] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Barbara Nichole wrote:some of your ideas are very interesting.. I'm not in favor of any idea which gives a remote chance that you can scan down a cloaked vessel; that is a slippery slope. but really some of your ideas are very well thought out. Slippery slopes can be some of the best rides, though.
slippery slopes may be a fun ride for a few minutes... but they end and the bottom where you never wanted to go. [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/OldST.jpg[/IMG] |
Garonis
G-corp Limited
1
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Posted - 2012.06.10 12:08:00 -
[190] - Quote
I am amazed there hasn't been any dev commentary on this thread so far. |
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Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2012.06.10 12:20:00 -
[191] - Quote
Why hasn't the OP been given a medal yet?
This is exactly what EVE needs. |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
176
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Posted - 2012.06.10 12:37:00 -
[192] - Quote
Gillia Winddancer wrote:Why hasn't the OP been given a medal yet?
This is exactly what EVE needs.
It's a brand new game, Eve wouldn't adapt. brb |
Qvar Dar'Zanar
EVE University Ivy League
48
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Posted - 2012.06.10 12:46:00 -
[193] - Quote
+1 for the local channel scrapping. |
Sloppy Podfarts
Hedion University Amarr Empire
17
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Posted - 2012.06.10 14:53:00 -
[194] - Quote
Good stuff |
Helo Primus
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2012.06.10 15:08:00 -
[195] - Quote
Great ideas although I could imagine in implementation it benefiting the large fleets and making it even harder for the solo guy. Large fleets would just fit ships as they do now with a couple of spec'd up sensor boats whereas the solo guy would have to sacrifice some of his weopon/tank mods or rigs to include said sensor mods leading to an even bigger divide. I'm all for being able to hide but I also want to be able to fight :)
Also do you not think this would just further encourage gate camps? I mean anyone who couldnt be bothered to look will just sit on a gate and wait for traffic.
The major step that should be taken is just the removal of local. Or not showing a player in the channel until they say something or dock up. |
Adaam Ikalaa
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.06.10 16:24:00 -
[196] - Quote
Not much to say except that I love the ideas posted by the OP! Well thought out and expressed! If you waste today, you've wasted one of the last days of your life. |
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
34
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Posted - 2012.06.21 01:57:00 -
[197] - Quote
Would have missed this thread, except someone posted the link to it from another (this one). Love the idea :) |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1090
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Posted - 2012.06.21 02:04:00 -
[198] - Quote
Helo Primus wrote:Great ideas although I could imagine in implementation it benefiting the large fleets and making it even harder for the solo guy. Large fleets would just fit ships as they do now with a couple of spec'd up sensor boats whereas the solo guy would have to sacrifice some of his weopon/tank mods or rigs to include said sensor mods leading to an even bigger divide. I'm all for being able to hide but I also want to be able to fight :)
Also do you not think this would just further encourage gate camps? I mean anyone who couldnt be bothered to look will just sit on a gate and wait for traffic.
The major step that should be taken is just the removal of local. Or not showing a player in the channel until they say something or dock up. Ah removing local. Always good to see that coming up again and again. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Kimmi Chan
Illuminatus Reforged The Revenant Order
141
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Posted - 2012.06.21 02:10:00 -
[199] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Ah removing local. Always good to see that coming up again and again.
The nice thing about the OP is that it isn't just the removal of local but replacing local with a new, more interactive mechanic that, at least in my opinion, has the potential for making the game more fun and immersive (making up words).
I agree. I am not really in favor of just removing local and saying, "Woohoo, Eve is fixed." But the OP is not suggesting that. He is suggesting a replacement for local.
-á"Miners mine so I don't have to." ~Metal Icarus |
Herr Hammer Draken
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
15
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Posted - 2012.06.21 03:23:00 -
[200] - Quote
I like this idea as well. However I think EVE updates too slow for this plan to work. Lag becomes critical with something like this. And EVE was designed with a much losser game play too allow for some lag issues without breaking the game. Granted it could be so much cooler. But that is just too demanding game play for the server under exsisting world wide conditions. IMHO.
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Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
12
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Posted - 2012.06.21 04:04:00 -
[201] - Quote
+1
This would make EVE "a lot more real". More diversity, more activity, more fun. |
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
24
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Posted - 2012.06.21 04:08:00 -
[202] - Quote
Xorv wrote:I like the ideas and vision for EVE you present. Practically speaking though what would you suggest CCP do that doesn't take several years for them to deliver?
I too agree. This vision and ideas are cool.
However, I think they are a bit too ambitious, and he only one really concrete short term, is delayed local, which is easy to implement.
Nearly all other ideas require major changes to the mechanics of the game. Which we as we now, is asking for SoonGäó.
So I put the thinking hat on, and came up with a solution:
1) Eliminate all general purpose cloaks. Only leave the specialized ones and the specialized ships for them (because Stealth Bombers and Blockade Runners are necessary and cool). This also returns them to their true role as unique ships, rather than as just ships that can fire faster after decloak.
2) Introduce a new module - call it the Signature Reduction Module, in the two techs and various metas (affecting cycle speed and negative bonuses as well as CPU, PG, and cap needs) and with scripts. This module would use the existing ship signature and reduce it incredibly, and would also cloak the ship to certain ranges based on the base sig radius. The negative bonuses could be the sames as a cloak, less targeting speed after inactivation and a hit to max speed. The various scripts would allow to customize the experience to the player:
a) A pure reduction script - adds to the sig reduction, but increases the negative bonuses etc.
b) A pure negative bonus script - reduce the negative bonuses, but decrease the sig reduction.
c) a middle script - adds a little more to the reduction, but also has a little more neg bonus.
d) etc etc etc
3) When using this module, the visual range of a ship is related to the ability of someone to lock the ship in under X seconds. If you can lock it in under X, then yo can see it, it shows in overview and you can lock it.
4) This is similar to how the sensor booster works, so no need to learn a new mechanic for it to work.
This would be extremely easy to achieve as all it does is adapt the existing cloak and sig radius ECM and ECCM code.
It would also introduce some of the advantages of terrain without needing a major code overhaul.
Think about it.
Of course, the ideal would be to introduce real terrain, heat, etc, but that could take years. My proposal is doable in relatively short term. Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
Grumpy Owly
Paladin Philanthropists
661
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Posted - 2012.06.21 06:32:00 -
[203] - Quote
I have to say this is one of "the" more exciting new proposals I've seen in a while personally and gets my support.
It's well thought out also and considers the ramifications of both sides whilst looking at current topical thinking on a number of issues players are having problems with regarding intelligence.
Some extra things to consider might be an extentsion to the active strategical model. This is where the "scout/recon" role can actually helpfully provide more of an initial role within fleets/corps/alliances. If a scout aquires a "target" he is capable of bookmarking the details and adding this information at a corporation level for shared use. At present this is used generically for varous in game needs both with military and commercial advantages.
The extension to this could be to allow a small management to "target" related details so that commanders can effectively prioritise targets and as such help to feed information through to co-oridnated efforts of how best to "dish" out tasks to various individuals/fleets. However, I think it needs to retain the "at time" information as opposed to "real time" information as is current, so that as a complete tactical package it will never replace the need for having effective co-ordinated communications or commanders reacting to real time changes. But certainly having some strategic tool to help co-ordiante tasks fed through from scouts might add a helpful tool.
e.g. scout finds a POS, he BM's it at organisational level. A commander can then maipulate this to than prioritise that target and or/apply specific parties for attention.
To make this more effective then it would mean applying more information to BM's. Like a sub file which may store this strategic info feed items in by command. Likewise it could contain useful info like screen prints with some overview info feed within to help see the actual details. This occurs anyhow but needs a bit of out of game manipulation to achieve to help share. Prinicipally if this could be hosted more at the server level it could go a long way of putting the intel in recon imho.
Other general feedback points about the ideas:
Hopefully not go too module heavy on the hunter as the need to have lots of "toys" just to do the job as this subtracts from the combat capabilties. This is generally the balancing notion with the stealth/hunter role in that they are limited in combat effectiveness by design already by the CCP model for having these capabilties. But if tweaks to fittings compensate the changes to derived added mod use expected of the role then that works just as good. Potentially yes this could mean more a team orientated need to fullfill these things, but the need to retain some solo related gameplay here may be neccesary for various reasons including some other than just functional.
Cloak fuel I'm happy with as a "management" issue if it can still be measured in hours as some observational recon duties are a "patience" exercise at the best of times. One obvious issue with the cargo use and fuel are firstly stealth bombers as bombs take up a lot of space, and secondly Blockade runners whose objective is to make best use of the limited cargo capacities they have currently, some issues with cyno use might be apparent here also for recon ships but if a seperate fuel bay or extension to cargo aspects can compensate here might not compromise those dedicated functions. Certainly the timings of hours might be most applicable and would go a long way to helping with AFK cloakies.
Removal of the easy to use and exploitable local chat intel issue we have currently should not really occur without having the neccesary tools for active "ships in space" network of information to help compensate for the lack of info. But I'm all for making this a more "active" benefit to intel than the passive ease of the chat channel useage presently.
Also might be usefull to consider the "look outside the window" issue on stations if local was simply removed? The gate combat issues and camping is a bit more culturally problematic and convoluted and I don't really have a problem with it really. But I don't really have a magic wand to some of the more apparent "blob" concerns either. Some of the new mods with e-war issues and targetting and other things might help to compensate here?
As some potential "novelty" ideas to explore for intel focussed roles:
1) Limited useage of drop satalites in systems and use them to d-scan in systems remotely (variable ranges)?
2) Remote camera drones/probes, allow a drone/probe to feedback visual information from a distance.
3) Scramble system communications, interupt d-scan integrity.
4) Mirage projection systems. Dummy ship representation.
5) Tracking Devices, ability to attach devices to ships to reveal its location, remotely, similar to the locater agent features.
Otherwise the proposals to add more impact to the relevance of inteligence and the related subterfuge aspects of the gameplay should be explored more and given more emphasis as real things to consider as opposed to having an entilted expectation to having it. Keep working at it with others OP but I really like where you are going with this manifesto on the subject. Bounty Hunting, Soon Gäó
It's just criminal - Smuggling |
Wu Jiaqiu
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
16
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Posted - 2012.06.21 08:23:00 -
[204] - Quote
Excellent idea |
Forest Hill
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
13
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Posted - 2012.06.21 14:50:00 -
[205] - Quote
TL;DR
Removing local would virtually kill industry as a meaningful activity in nullsec.. no miner I know is going to risk hundreds of millions of ISK with virtually no protection. And mining isn't lucrative enough to warrant the manpower needed to guard every miner out there. So it'll have to be heavily guarded mining ops, CTA style. Well, that sounds like fun...
I could agree to the delay or removal of Local, if you could buy it back as an upgrade in your ihub, and then only if CCP would end the ability to 'afk cloaky camp' such an upgraded system. |
Draek
Tarmikos Shipyards
0
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Posted - 2012.06.21 16:03:00 -
[206] - Quote
I just wanted to say I really like these ideas and I think it adds nice gameplay elements for both hunter and hunted.
There is one thing I wanted to add though.
I like the mechanic that the larger your signature radius is the "hotter" you are as a target and thus easier to find.
However I was thinking in addition to certain modules increasing/decreasing this value perhaps certain actions would as well.
Decreasing actions: - Sitting still - Hiding next to bodies with higher sig radius (asteroids, planets, maybe even bigger ships)
Increasing actions: - Running MWD (this does it already but just asserting it makes you easier to spot with sensors as well) - Warping
I also mulled over weapons/modules increasing this as well since it seems logical if there is fighting it's easier to detect (passive or active).
However if we're playing with the actual sig radius value these actions would make you easier to hit which I doubt anyone would like without a complete rebalance of sigs and how weapons hit.
If that's not possible perhaps there is a way to make the area where the fight is happening hot to sensors instead of the people inside. Expanding on this idea could lead to a visualization of hot sig events on the solar system map, complete with areas of recent activity, warp trails, etc...
Essentially a signature fingerprint of the last few hours or so. |
Forest Hill
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
13
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Posted - 2012.06.21 18:47:00 -
[207] - Quote
I was thinking about this a bit more.. it actually isn't that strange to have local intel. After all, you have jumped through a gate into a system. Anyone who hasn't jumped out or who's pod hasn't been destroyed, must automatically be in the system. Traffic control/Concord has this knowledge.
The only reason why concord would *not* know about a pilot/ship in local is - I think - theoretically, if it was built in local and never jumped through something, or undocked. Perhaps someone better versed in the lore dept. can shed some light on this. |
Riieck
New World Industries Inc StoneGuard Alliance
1
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Posted - 2012.06.22 03:14:00 -
[208] - Quote
I am definitely in favor of:
- Using sensors to track people down.
- Using some sort of log in the stargates to check for people
- Using ship systems to make your enemy's sensors think you are bigger/smaller than you really are.
- Using nearby "terrain" to shield/mask sensors (although it is easy to implement, it might be hard to actually put to use, unless the mechanic uses only range to object as the mask and not direction+range [ie having to go to the dark side of the body to hide from somebody].
- How about a signature minimizer module? Will not hide you completely but will make you significantly harder to track. Advantages will be less penalty to speed vs full cloak (after all the engines should make some interstellar EM noise). Also this should be fittable to any ship. A good skill level will lessen speed penalty while lowering long range signature. The module should not have any usefullness at "visual" range.
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Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue
678
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Posted - 2012.06.22 03:58:00 -
[209] - Quote
To the player population in general: thank you for the kudos, the general positive reinforcement and the constructive discourse so far. I'd like to deliver a few thoughts on the discussion:
The concept of sensing other players and intelligence gathering shouldn't come in the form of an additional module. There shouldn't be an additional layer of something new added to the game in order to accomplish this. Everything should be inherent to what we do naturally: fit ships, fight, play the game as we always do.
It's not too impossible for CCP to implement this. The ideas and concepts are not too far out of reach. CCP needs to build sensing and stealth factors into every layer of choice. Every module, every ship hull, every action.
Think of activity as 'dust'. Everything you do as a pilot kicks up said dust. The dust can be visualized as a heat map (see population representation as 'blobs' on the galactic map) on our system level sensors. We can use larger signatures to mask our own smaller signature and blend into the surrounding shadow of larger objects, or even old fights, where other ships have kicked up a lot of 'dust' that is now drifting across the solar system.
It shouldn't be that difficult for CCP to implement this. The computational and database overhead shouldn't be too much. We're not talking about real time combat. The server checks could be very limited if need be. Additional variables are assigned to each module to affect their effect upon the overall signature output of a ship in a given posture. My point is, let's work within the existing framework we have. No need to invent additional modules etc.
I see a few posts worried that solo hunters would be at a disadvantage due to the need for specialized sensing modules, or have to dumb down their combat fits for more offensive sensing capability. Not at all. I'm a solo player first and foremost. I want the solo player with a keen intellect to be the most dangerous opponent in the galaxy. Slip in, kill, and slip out undetected.
Quite a few players are horrified at the prospect of a veritable Call To Arms in order to have to do something as mundane as a mining op. Why not? Mining ops are an almost social occasion. Why not involve the PVP arms of the alliance as well? Of course it will be worth it ISK-wise. The added cost of the defenders will be incorporated into the price of the minerals. Because your time isn't free, right? Right?
With the added mining frigate (it looks so awesome!), there would even be the option of sneaking in and mining with a signature so small that it goes undetected or is simply ignored as a false positve. Think about that for a second. A false positive. What if there was enough naturally occuring activity that there are numerous false positives. Enough that it's actually feasable to hide among them. The hunters dilemma: do we check out every one, or just move on to the next system? What is real? What is ambient? What is fake? What does your gut tell you?
Everyone who instantly fears for whatever way of life they currently have in Eve and worries that it might get disrupted or horribly destroyed: good. You've been doing the same stupid crap for the better part of 8-9 years now. Eve needs some dramatic and far reaching core game play changes to keep it new and fresh. Rebalancing a few T1 frigs isn't my idea of change. Changes like that are evolutionary, not revolutionary. I want to see CCP be fearless. Put their money where their mouth is. Show me that you care CCP.
There are so many opportunities for truely dramatic game play. All CCP has to do is abandon the incremental and safe development and reach for the gold ring. They've done it before. They might have the balls to do it again. Intelligence shouldn't be free. -á Mining, reloaded. -á-áADDICTED. |
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue
678
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Posted - 2012.06.22 05:48:00 -
[210] - Quote
Also- the thread finally got moved to F&I. Intelligence shouldn't be free. -á Mining, reloaded. -á-áADDICTED. |
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