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Amera Khan
Southern Cross Incorporated Shadow Cartel
45
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Posted - 2016.04.26 10:40:37 -
[1] - Quote
Current Stats:
Impairor - 115 m3 Ibis - 125 m3 Reaper - 120 m3 Velator - 130 m3
Right now the Impairor and Reaper cannot fit 300 liquid ozone in their cargo for cyno level 4 (the reaper has a rounding bug that stops it). I suggest raising all cargo to at least 125 m3 to enable all races to do cynos without needed cargo expanders at cyno level 4.
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Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
555
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Posted - 2016.04.26 10:44:13 -
[2] - Quote
Amera Khan wrote:Current Stats:
Impairor - 115 m3 Ibis - 125 m3 Reaper - 120 m3 Velator - 130 m3
Right now the Impairor and Reaper cannot fit 300 liquid ozone in their cargo for cyno level 4 (the reaper has a rounding bug that stops it). I suggest raising all cargo to at least 125 m3 to enable all races to do cynos without needed cargo expanders at cyno level 4.
Reaper CAN. you just have to take out the piece of Trit.
Impairor does deserve +5 though.
The Law is a point of View
The NPE IS a big deal
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2296
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Posted - 2016.04.26 10:45:59 -
[3] - Quote
I say we go the other way and make sure none of them can with cyno V
Citadel worm hole tax
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Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
555
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Posted - 2016.04.26 10:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:I say we go the other way and make sure none of them can with cyno V
Also an option, though it needs to be either or, not 3:1.
The Law is a point of View
The NPE IS a big deal
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Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S Affirmative.
436
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Posted - 2016.04.26 11:14:17 -
[5] - Quote
Just train your Cyno Alts to also be Covert Cynos Alts, and then you will already have Cyno V, problem solved :P |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
814
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Posted - 2016.04.26 13:21:12 -
[6] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:I say we go the other way and make sure none of them can with cyno V On the right track, just make it so none of the rookie ships can fit a cyno and problem solved.
Kenrailae wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:I say we go the other way and make sure none of them can with cyno V Also an option, though it needs to be either or, not 3:1. Why because it is so hard and takes so long to train a cyno pilot to fly the right rookie ship? What maybe all of 10 seconds in the creation window to remember which race to make them.
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Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces
345
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Posted - 2016.04.26 20:00:28 -
[7] - Quote
No maybe you should use a real frigate and not the rookie ship for your purposes, just because something doesn't fit your use doesn't mean it should be changed
"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
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Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
556
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Posted - 2016.04.26 21:10:42 -
[8] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:I say we go the other way and make sure none of them can with cyno V On the right track, just make it so none of the rookie ships can fit a cyno and problem solved. Kenrailae wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:I say we go the other way and make sure none of them can with cyno V Also an option, though it needs to be either or, not 3:1. Why because it is so hard and takes so long to train a cyno pilot to fly the right rookie ship? What maybe all of 10 seconds in the creation window to remember which race to make them.
You ARE so full of bitter, and don't really think things through....
So when the new guy makes his Amarr character because he's watched just enough eve video's to know he really likes the golden turkey, how does he know that he's picked the race that is going to forever damn him with being the only race that can't use a noobship cyno as is with cyno 4?
Either shrinking the cargo so none of them can do cyno's at L4, or increasing it on the impairor are both viable options.
But here's one more thought for you: When you go to the amarr new player systems, all those people that are trying to mine up that first x million isk using their noobship because its what they have and they don't know otherwise, all those amarr players are being given the short end of the stick as well, because the Impairor has to go to station more often or with less in its cargo. As older players we know that mining in a noobship is silly, but day 1, day 2, day 3 players don't necessary.
You could go into a massive derailment of what new players should and shouldn't do etc etc, but Eve is about how you choose to play the game, we can both agree to that. Punishing new guys who don't know better with something so silly as a bad cargo stat trait on their noob ship isn't a good game design.
Noobships either need to none of them be able to light cynos(due to cargo hold), or the impairor needs to be brought into the fold. It's just sensible design.
The Law is a point of View
The NPE IS a big deal
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2928
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Posted - 2016.04.26 21:37:39 -
[9] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:I say we go the other way and make sure none of them can with cyno V Also an option, though it needs to be either or, not 3:1. I don't think it matters, given that the rookie ship with cargo fittings will almost always cost more than a probe frigate without.
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2312
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Posted - 2016.04.26 21:54:26 -
[10] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Kenrailae wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:I say we go the other way and make sure none of them can with cyno V Also an option, though it needs to be either or, not 3:1. I don't think it matters, given that the rookie ship with cargo fittings will almost always cost more than a probe frigate without.
right now some of the rookie ships do not need any fittings other than the cyno to cyno
Citadel worm hole tax
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2928
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Posted - 2016.04.26 22:30:45 -
[11] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:right now some of the rookie ships do not need any fittings other than the cyno to cyno Perhaps all should be able to cyno without fittings at skill 4 or 5, and with fittings at lower skills.
If my math is correct, currently they can all do it at skill 5. The minimum skill for each one to cyno without fittings is: Impairor: 5 Ibis: 4 Velator: 4 Reaper: 4
If all of them had their cargo increased by 5m3, their minimum skill would be: Impairor: 4 Ibis: 4 Velator: 4 Reaper: 4
Another way to handle it could be to give the Impairor 3 low slots and 1 mid slot, and the Ibis 1 low slot and 3 mid slots.
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2314
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Posted - 2016.04.26 22:43:11 -
[12] - Quote
nah i still think it's better if none of them can
Citadel worm hole tax
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Paranoid Loyd
8959
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Posted - 2016.04.26 23:04:45 -
[13] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:nah i still think it's better if none of them can This.
And to the two arguing about training into the noob ships and/or choosing race based of which one can act as a cyno ship, the noob ships don't require any training.
Fix the Prospect! New Server Hardware!
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Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
1612
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Posted - 2016.04.27 00:44:00 -
[14] - Quote
You do realize your basing the noob ship cargo size solely on disposable cyno fits.
Now what will you do if CCP decreases the cargohold to 50, vs increasing it.
What will you do then?
Yaay!!!!
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Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
556
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Posted - 2016.04.27 01:10:35 -
[15] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:nah i still think it's better if none of them can This. And to the two arguing about training into the noob ships and/or choosing race based of which one can act as a cyno ship, the noob ships don't require any training.
You need to read.
No one said training.
Donna proposed a scenario from the perspective of someone intentionally making a cyno char(who has knowledge of the game). I put it from the perspective of someone who doesn't. I then expanded on the discrepancy from a possible angle of a new player, and how this discrepancy in cargo sizes negatively impacts them as well, without any clear indication of how or why they are being so penalized.
I'm fine with noob ships being unable to light cyno's. I've said it two or three times now. But, whichever way it goes, all 4 need to be on the same page. Not because us bitter vets can't figure out which race to make our alts, but because new people don't have the luxury of that prior knowledge and are given no indicator when choosing their character as to the differences. Why do noobships need to have different cargo sizes? Every player in Eve gets one when they dock in station with no ships in it. It's not like you're going into character creation and picking a ship. You're building your barbie and what it looks like. Why does 1 need to be penalized over the other 3, in pretty much the one aspect that you can differentiate them with any real consequence?
@Phoenix That's fine. Then all 4 will be on the same page, and the newbro won't figure out a year in 'well crap I shouldn't have picked Amarr.'
The Law is a point of View
The NPE IS a big deal
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2315
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Posted - 2016.04.27 02:02:56 -
[16] - Quote
Phoenix Jones wrote:You do realize your basing the noob ship cargo size solely on disposable cyno fits.
Now what will you do if CCP decreases the cargohold to 50, vs increasing it.
What will you do then?
not bat an eye why?
but they could also just make it so they can't fit the cyno
Citadel worm hole tax
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2928
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Posted - 2016.04.27 02:21:39 -
[17] - Quote
Given that rookie ships can be sold on the market, I don't see how this is an issue. If your Amarrian character has cyno trained to 4 and you're desperate for a cheap throw-away cyno ship, and you can't be arsed to buy a Magnate for significantly less than the cyno module costs, then just check the market for any of the other three rookie ships. If there's none for sale at any reasonable price, then bug any non-Amarrian friendly in station to get you a rookie ship.
I'll save you a bit of frustration and remind you that the Ni-Kunni are, in fact, Amarrian even if they don't seem like it.
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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Tabyll Altol
Breaking.Bad Circle-Of-Two
161
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Posted - 2016.04.27 06:03:25 -
[18] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:I say we go the other way and make sure none of them can with cyno V
better solution
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
816
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Posted - 2016.04.27 14:38:42 -
[19] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:[You ARE so full of bitter, and don't really think things through....
So when the new guy makes his Amarr character because he's watched just enough eve video's to know he really likes the golden turkey, how does he know that he's picked the race that is going to forever damn him with being the only race that can't use a noobship cyno as is with cyno 4? Oh please spare me your now supposedly huge concern for the new players, especially when you post an argument that can be counter with half a brain cell active. SO wait for it. By time he has trained his main into cap ships and needs a cyno pilot your theoretical player would already fully understand the limitation of the various ships and could have a dozen or more alts started and properly trained to use the right rookie ship as a cyno.
Kenrailae wrote:But here's one more thought for you: When you go to the amarr new player systems, all those people that are trying to mine up that first x million isk using their noobship because its what they have and they don't know otherwise, all those amarr players are being given the short end of the stick as well, because the Impairor has to go to station more often or with less in its cargo. As older players we know that mining in a noobship is silly, but day 1, day 2, day 3 players don't necessary. Nice try, IF, and please note that I say IF the OP had asked for the changes based on this reason I might have been inclined to agree with them. I say "might" have been because any new player that is going to mine is going to be in a venture after the first day or two anyway so this whole cargo size thing is irrelevant.
Kenrailae wrote:You could go into a massive derailment of what new players should and shouldn't do etc etc, but Eve is about how you choose to play the game, we can both agree to that. Punishing new guys who don't know better with something so silly as a bad cargo stat trait on their noob ship isn't a good game design. You are so right here and yet you still draw the wrong conclusions from it. EvE is about choices, it is also about the consequences of those choices, and after working with new players since I started in 2009 the sooner they learn this fundamental aspect of everything they will ever do in EvE the better off they will be. If the hold size differences in the rookie ships can help some of them learn this then it is valid simply for that fact, especially early in the game when it is so cheap, quick and easy to overcome.
Moving on to the "bitter all over me" thing, again you are right but you are so wrong. I am bitter, Like you I have played this game since 2009 and like those who started before us and then complained about us we worked and waited sometimes a month or more for skills etc to train that new characters today are given the moment the go live one the server. In many ways there has been good to come from this and in some ways there has been a lot of bad from it. I see significantly more entitlement attitude in the new players I work with these days than I ever have in the past. And I see significantly less inclination to work and wait for the next level to come. Are the gifts given at birth all of the reason for that, probably not, but at the same time we have to accept that those gifts are a part of those changes. In the end new players in any game will always be at a disadvantage and nothing a game company can give them when they start a new character can or ever will change that so we have to look at it from that angle as well.
Kenrailae wrote:Noobships either need to none of them be able to light cynos(due to cargo hold), or the impairor needs to be brought into the fold. It's just sensible design. I already covered this one. No one in the game should be able to get a FREE ship to be used as a cyno, unless it is supplied by a corp / alliance ship replacement program and the only way to make that happens is to limit rookie ships so none of them can use a cyno. Cargo capacity is just one way that could be done, but considering the early game reinforcement choices and consequences they provide and at a relatively insignificant level I am all for them staying in the game. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1961
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Posted - 2016.04.27 15:37:35 -
[20] - Quote
Non covert cynos should only be allowed using t3d which should include a SP loss when popped with an active cyno up. This would go a long ways to solving several issues. (thinking caps on ladies)
EDIT/ADD: I think this whole noobs ships should be equal and fair concept is pretty cute. |
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Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
557
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Posted - 2016.04.28 01:25:21 -
[21] - Quote
Donna, did you even look at my Sig?
So yeah....
Good fight m8. L2R
The Law is a point of View
The NPE IS a big deal
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
818
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Posted - 2016.04.28 13:28:31 -
[22] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:Donna, did you even look at my Sig?
So yeah....
Good fight m8. L2R Lookied at your sig, checked you on Eve Who and several of the online kill boards, it is a part of what I do. Augustus Ceasar and General George Patton among many others taught me well, to know your enemy is to be able to defeat your enemy. No we are not enemies here we are simply sparring partners in what is likely to be a useless debate but the same basics theory apply here as they would in battle.
It has been fun to spar with a worthy opponent so as they say GF. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2531
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Posted - 2016.04.28 13:54:55 -
[23] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:I say we go the other way and make sure none of them can with cyno V
Why?
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2531
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Posted - 2016.04.28 13:56:50 -
[24] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Kenrailae wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:I say we go the other way and make sure none of them can with cyno V Also an option, though it needs to be either or, not 3:1. I don't think it matters, given that the rookie ship with cargo fittings will almost always cost more than a probe frigate without. right now some of the rookie ships do not need any fittings other than the cyno to cyno
Why is this a problem?
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2929
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Posted - 2016.04.28 16:49:56 -
[25] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Reaver Glitterstim wrote:I don't think it matters, given that the rookie ship with cargo fittings will almost always cost more than a probe frigate without. right now some of the rookie ships do not need any fittings other than the cyno to cyno The cyno module costs several times as much as a probe frigate. Even the liquid ozone costs almost as much as the frigate!
FT Diomedes wrote:Why is this a problem? I'm in the camp with FT Diomedes asking why it even matters. I don't see a problem with being able to save a tiny bit of ISK on using a rookie ship instead of a frigate to cyno. The main reason anyone will use a rookie ship for cynoing is either laziness or lack of a market. It's an easy job, I don't see a reason to make it insignificantly harder or insignificantly easier by making any changes to rookie ships. The new player experience is what they should be balanced around.
And most importantly, if we were to arrive at the conclusion that the rookie ships had too much or too little effort holding cyno fuel, it would not be a reason to rebalance the cargo of rookie ships, but a reason to rebalance the cargo cost of cyno fuel, because frigates are another kind of rookie's ship and it's easy to cyno with most but not all frigates.
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
1622
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Posted - 2016.04.28 17:35:50 -
[26] - Quote
Donna, the only way that will work out is if people have an alternative way to cyno. I've always thought that ships should have a way to blind jump into a system. Instead of the tactical pinpoint precision of a cyno, a random jump in point in a system (most obvious place would be a planet or the sun. You run the risk of yolo into a system and having no real control on your destination.
Remove the requirement of needing a cyno to jump systems and make it a more tactical system (you can do both), you can probably remove the Rookie ship cyno (because now people don't have an excuse).
There should be some negatives to the system but basically something like that.
* cyno jump to specific location * blind jump to system with no real intelligence and no control over destination. Cyno not required but if anybody sees you blind jump, your basically in a world of trouble.
Yaay!!!!
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2931
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Posted - 2016.04.28 17:49:12 -
[27] - Quote
Howabout the sun acts as a cyno? It makes sense from a lore perspective and it provides a known jumping point that can be camped if anyone is expecting you. Of course you can get a friend to scout the sun, but then you can also get a friend to cyno you at the station or citadel.
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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