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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1358
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Posted - 2016.04.27 06:40:17 -
[1] - Quote
CCP the Medium Citadel does in fact need a market module, there are many small groups that would like this to be able to control their own market so they can create a supply for their people. No need for remote orders, just a market with access to those who are docked and have standings to be able to use the market to differentiate the Medium perhaps a max number of listed items to create a need for the other larger Citadels.
Reasons, I and others want to create a small group and I want o help them in that area, so I make the effort to bring in modules, ships and rigs to enable them to operate, so my focus is a small group. Please think what this will enable and see if you can do something, to say I was disappointed that there is no market module for the medium is an understatement.
I would suggest no remote orders to make it easier because the intent is not to be a market HUB, its more to supply a local group and have no worries about entities like Malcanis's alliance come rolling in and blowing up the Large for lol's, with the Medium I can just laugh and put another one up. Do you not understand that this is imperative in a game where smaller entities need to grow and control their risk where we have big entities taht just look for something to blow up to stroke their epeen, if you fail to understand that aspect and that you need to cater for it then really you are ignoring an issue with Eve and not giving the tools for people to use in your game environment.
Come on and think it through, do this for the small guys and not the entitled arrogant major alliance players, I have to ask do you just listen to people like this:
Malcanis wrote: A medium citadel is the equivalent of a POS. Who'd put their goods up for sale and leave them in a destructible structure owned by a group that can't even afford a large?
Especially when there are plenty of groups that can afford bigger citadels and will also be competing for those sweet, sweet transaction taxes?
tl;dr: your expectations were extremely unrealistic.
A Citadel is not equivalent to a POS, its not a case of afford, its more of a case of local use in hostile environments, it is not intended to be a market HUB for others, but to supply a small entity or group of people.
Because I am not sure whether you read this I will put pressure on a guy who has the ability to speak to your developers directly and push this.
Ella's Snack bar. The Hisec sandbox is basically no longer a themepark for gankers now that CCP have rebalanced key areas. Well done CCP
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3213
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Posted - 2016.04.27 06:45:20 -
[2] - Quote
Corp offices do what you are asking for the most part. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1358
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Posted - 2016.04.27 06:48:29 -
[3] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Corp offices do what you are asking for the most part.
No they do not, I am talking about people in NPC corps , small corps and small alliances that have blued up but want to do their own thing living in an area, a corp office does not do that at all.
Often players do the work and sell to their corpmates the items needed to operate, the corp office has no mechanism for this and don't even think about suggesting contracts...
Ella's Snack bar. The Hisec sandbox is basically no longer a themepark for gankers now that CCP have rebalanced key areas. Well done CCP
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2319
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Posted - 2016.04.27 07:12:11 -
[4] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Corp offices do what you are asking for the most part. No they do not, I am talking about people in NPC corps , small corps and small alliances that have blued up but want to do their own thing living in an area, a corp office does not do that at all. Often players do the work and sell to their corpmates the items needed to operate, the corp office has no mechanism for this and don't even think about suggesting contracts...
Nope you want the reward of a corp then take the risks that come with one and leave npc
Citadel worm hole tax
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1359
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Posted - 2016.04.27 07:19:42 -
[5] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Corp offices do what you are asking for the most part. No they do not, I am talking about people in NPC corps , small corps and small alliances that have blued up but want to do their own thing living in an area, a corp office does not do that at all. Often players do the work and sell to their corpmates the items needed to operate, the corp office has no mechanism for this and don't even think about suggesting contracts... Nope you want the reward of a corp then take the risks that come with one and leave npc
You comment makes no sense, it is a throw away insult comment that ignores the issue, next.
Ella's Snack bar. The Hisec sandbox is basically no longer a themepark for gankers now that CCP have rebalanced key areas. Well done CCP
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2319
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Posted - 2016.04.27 07:25:16 -
[6] - Quote
The solution given you said didn't work because of npc corps how does my comment not apply
And I don't see what is wrong with using contacts or pooling together to buy a large
Citadel worm hole tax
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1359
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Posted - 2016.04.27 07:32:07 -
[7] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:The solution given you said didn't work because of npc corps how does my comment not apply
And I don't see what is wrong with using contacts or pooling together to buy a large
Well for a start this is not in terms of hisec, being outside of hisec makes no difference in terms of an NPC corp, which is why it makes no sense.
Contracts have a limited number and take a lot of work to keep putting up, I can make corp ones or open them up to all so my blues can take them but that means I cannot stop my enemies from buying them up even if they cannot dock to grab the items. So when they blow up the station they then get the items transferred to a nearby station.
Large, in affect its too juicy a target and therefore too expensive, when you live in areas where you have to operate aroud people who when they can be bothered will just blow up everything, a Large is just asking for a waste of ISK for me and gudfites for those that like blowing stuff up.
Take this a step further and think about living in systems where PL routinely blows everything up.
Ella's Snack bar. The Hisec sandbox is basically no longer a themepark for gankers now that CCP have rebalanced key areas. Well done CCP
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2319
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Posted - 2016.04.27 07:51:46 -
[8] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:The solution given you said didn't work because of npc corps how does my comment not apply
And I don't see what is wrong with using contacts or pooling together to buy a large Well for a start this is not in terms of hisec, being outside of hisec makes no difference in terms of an NPC corp, which is why it makes no sense. Contracts have a limited number and take a lot of work to keep putting up, I can make corp ones or open them up to all so my blues can take them but that means I cannot stop my enemies from buying them up even if they cannot dock to grab the items. So when they blow up the station they then get the items transferred to a nearby station. Large, in affect its too juicy a target and therefore too expensive, when you live in areas where you have to operate aroud people who when they can be bothered will just blow up everything, a Large is just asking for a waste of ISK for me and gudfites for those that like blowing stuff up. Take this a step further and think about living in systems where PL routinely blows everything up.
No risk no reward
Of your space is to hot for your size move or adapt
Citadel worm hole tax
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ChromeStriker
Out of Focus Odin's Call
1040
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Posted - 2016.04.27 07:56:09 -
[9] - Quote
It creates a demand for the larger Ciidels in hi-sec. Why build a Large when you can just use a medium?... Answer = Market.
Also gives a goal for peeps to strive for...
No Worries
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1359
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Posted - 2016.04.27 08:00:40 -
[10] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:No risk no reward
Of your space is to hot for your size move or adapt
Last reply then you are blocked, another throw away line that many simple minded people thow out to make some senseless point to stroke their epeen. Fact, putting a Medium up in such space is taking a risk, a Large is a much greater risk and where is the reward?
All space is hot, that is Eve, move out wow no risk, adapt is what I am talking about, I am talking about having a reason to put up something that is costing 2bn. At the moment there is no reason at all, no reward period, my reward is controlling who I sell to, the only reason to put up a Medium Citadel.
Can't get more obvious then that, but if you chose to throw one liners and cover your eyes thats your problem not mine.
You are now blocked.
Ella's Snack bar. The Hisec sandbox is basically no longer a themepark for gankers now that CCP have rebalanced key areas. Well done CCP
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1359
|
Posted - 2016.04.27 08:03:01 -
[11] - Quote
ChromeStriker wrote:It creates a demand for the larger Ciidels in hi-sec. Why build a Large when you can just use a medium?... Answer = Market.
Also gives a goal for peeps to strive for...
I am not talking about hisec, I am talking about NPC 0.0, lowsec without stations out of the way, deep sov 0.0 that no one wants to bother with.
In hisec I would build a large, hell I would go for an XL.
Ella's Snack bar. The Hisec sandbox is basically no longer a themepark for gankers now that CCP have rebalanced key areas. Well done CCP
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2319
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Posted - 2016.04.27 08:09:29 -
[12] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:No risk no reward
Of your space is to hot for your size move or adapt Last reply then you are blocked, another throw away line that many simple minded people thow out to make some senseless point to stroke their epeen. Fact, putting a Medium up in such space is taking a risk, a Large is a much greater risk and where is the reward? All space is hot, that is Eve, move out wow no risk, adapt is what I am talking about, I am talking about having a reason to put up something that is costing 2bn. At the moment there is no reason at all, no reward period, my reward is controlling who I sell to, the only reason to put up a Medium Citadel. Can't get more obvious then that, but if you chose to throw one liners and cover your eyes thats your problem not mine. You are now blocked.
How is that stroking an epeen it's basic game design.and meds are only 600m only way you are getting it up to 2B is with t2 rigs. There is a reason to put up med citadels they may just not fit your personnel needs. If you need a cheaper structure to put a market in wait a few more months for the industry and Drilling platforms. The large variants of them will cost much less than citadels and can still fit markets.
And game balance needs to be across eve not just in the section you are living in
Citadel worm hole tax
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Drago Shouna
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
351
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Posted - 2016.04.27 08:18:40 -
[13] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:The solution given you said didn't work because of npc corps how does my comment not apply
And I don't see what is wrong with using contacts or pooling together to buy a large
You really don't get small corp/solo play do you?
We play like we do because we enjoy playing that way, some are solo because of rl issues such as work etc. Some are solo because they hate relying on others, some because they have been the whole large corp/alliance route and hate being told to be on ts or fleet up.
So you and others in this game seriously expect us to club together in a system to buy a large citadel? really?
Let's say there are 4 solo players in system, all of them doing a bit of mining and industry with an alt or 2.
Do you really think they are all going to throw 2.5bn isk each into a pot to buy one? Who owns it? Who controls it? Who is responsible for sharing out any profits? Who's turn is it to mine ice for fuel? I could go on and that's why it won't happen. These players are perfectly happy with no reliance on others.
The biggest problem is that You don't get it, the power blocs don't get it, the oligarchs will never accept it as they want more members and income, lastly, CCP are slowly refusing to accept us as well and so they are trying to herd us in a certain direction.
Well I have news for you all, we'll find a way to survive, we always do.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2319
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Posted - 2016.04.27 08:26:32 -
[14] - Quote
... mate it's an mmo while solo play is a legitimate way to play the game don't expect the majority of it to be balanced around solo play
Citadel worm hole tax
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1360
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Posted - 2016.04.27 08:27:24 -
[15] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:No risk no reward
Of your space is to hot for your size move or adapt Last reply then you are blocked, another throw away line that many simple minded people thow out to make some senseless point to stroke their epeen. Fact, putting a Medium up in such space is taking a risk, a Large is a much greater risk and where is the reward? All space is hot, that is Eve, move out wow no risk, adapt is what I am talking about, I am talking about having a reason to put up something that is costing 2bn. At the moment there is no reason at all, no reward period, my reward is controlling who I sell to, the only reason to put up a Medium Citadel. Can't get more obvious then that, but if you chose to throw one liners and cover your eyes thats your problem not mine. You are now blocked. How is that stroking an epeen it's basic game design.and meds are only 600m only way you are getting it up to 2B is with t2 rigs. There is a reason to put up med citadels they may just not fit your personnel needs. If you need a cheaper structure to put a market in wait a few more months for the industry and Drilling platforms. The large variants of them will cost much less than citadels and can still fit markets. And game balance needs to be across eve not just in the section you are living in
Throwing those one liner know it all quotes is often the mark of someone stroking their epeen on the Eve forums.
A Medium Citadel is meant to be a base, in its current form it is not fit for purpose because it has no market functionality, the decision not to have a market was made with no explanation, it has disappointed a large number of players who I am in contact with, many of who had re-subbed because of Citadels. There is no reason why Medium Citadels could not have a limited market as I suggested, and by the way that is the differential between a Medium and a Large.
There are other stuctures coming to meet those other needs, I don't presume to question your needs though I know people who operate in WH space, some wanted the market ability.
Those other structures do not meet what I am after, I wanted a proper functioning base in space with large predatory organisation passing through, without a market you might as well not bother having a Medium, tha is how stark it is, your comments actually made that point.
Balance is something one has to look at in terms of various factors, balancing the tools to deal with entities like PL running around just blowing up stuff for lol's has to be part of the balancing apprach and in my view this is not the case.
Ella's Snack bar. The Hisec sandbox is basically no longer a themepark for gankers now that CCP have rebalanced key areas. Well done CCP
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1360
|
Posted - 2016.04.27 08:31:42 -
[16] - Quote
Drago Shouna wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:The solution given you said didn't work because of npc corps how does my comment not apply
And I don't see what is wrong with using contacts or pooling together to buy a large You really don't get small corp/solo play do you? We play like we do because we enjoy playing that way, some are solo because of rl issues such as work etc. Some are solo because they hate relying on others, some because they have been the whole large corp/alliance route and hate being told to be on ts or fleet up. So you and others in this game seriously expect us to club together in a system to buy a large citadel? really? Let's say there are 4 solo players in system, all of them doing a bit of mining and industry with an alt or 2. Do you really think they are all going to throw 2.5bn isk each into a pot to buy one? Who owns it? Who controls it? Who is responsible for sharing out any profits? Who's turn is it to mine ice for fuel? I could go on and that's why it won't happen. These players are perfectly happy with no reliance on others. The biggest problem is that You don't get it, the power blocs don't get it, the oligarchs will never accept it as they want more members and income, lastly, CCP are slowly refusing to accept us as well and so they are trying to herd us in a certain direction. Well I have news for you all, we'll find a way to survive, we always do.
Well said, CCP does not look after casual players and only throws them the odd bone when they lose subs, as I directly returned because of Medium Citadels and suddenly finding that they no longer have a market capability makes me very angry for myself anfd players like me such as you.
CCP have failed casual players yet again.
Ella's Snack bar. The Hisec sandbox is basically no longer a themepark for gankers now that CCP have rebalanced key areas. Well done CCP
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2319
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Posted - 2016.04.27 08:41:54 -
[17] - Quote
The medium do have a role they fill a similar one that pos do in that it is just a small base. Pos managed to fill this role fine without a market. Larger are starting to get into the outpost replacement role.more permanent and defensible and have markets. XL then go above and beyond the abulity of outposts.
CCP did give an explenation as to why medium would not have one. It was not something done with no explenation. Trust me I wanted it too when I made the thread in my signature I did it with the intention to put up a Medium where I would not need to defend it for six hours a week (those of us living in it are only 10 strong and have full time jobs). But rather than trying to make citadels fit my needs and my style of play we made a sacrifice. We took a risk and have invited another small group to work the wh with us and defend a large.
Citadel worm hole tax
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1360
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Posted - 2016.04.27 09:07:03 -
[18] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:The medium do have a role they fill a similar one that pos do in that it is just a small base. Pos managed to fill this role fine without a market. Larger are starting to get into the outpost replacement role.more permanent and defensible and have markets. XL then go above and beyond the abulity of outposts.
CCP did give an explenation as to why medium would not have one. It was not something done with no explenation. Trust me I wanted it too when I made the thread in my signature I did it with the intention to put up a Medium where I would not need to defend it for six hours a week (those of us living in it are only 10 strong and have full time jobs). But rather than trying to make citadels fit my needs and my style of play we made a sacrifice. We took a risk and have invited another small group to work the wh with us and defend a large.
No A POS is not a citadel, its something different equating the two is wrong period, there are markets and clone bays in Citadels, well not markets in Mediums, sadly. A Medium Citadel is a small outpots not a POS.
Where is that explanation, I have not found it, do you have links, because I cannot locate it.
Ella's Snack bar. The Hisec sandbox is basically no longer a themepark for gankers now that CCP have rebalanced key areas. Well done CCP
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1360
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Posted - 2016.04.27 09:30:15 -
[19] - Quote
Let's be clear what I want to define as a limited market in a small outpost not a POS, just to emphasise the difference and stick my tongue out at Malcanis..
500 Sell orders only, which means I put items up for sale, so no buy orders. No remote access, you have to be docked.
The control of access to that market is based on standings.
Simple and very very useful.
Ella's Snack bar. The Hisec sandbox is basically no longer a themepark for gankers now that CCP have rebalanced key areas. Well done CCP
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2320
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Posted - 2016.04.27 09:47:40 -
[20] - Quote
I said they filed a similar role not that they were the exact same thing. I was talking about how there is a use for these without a market. The tow of market you seem to be describing seems entirely possible via contacts. It would be better if you were prevented from accepting contacts in citadels you had no accesses to. Hell this would also fix an entirely separate issue as well
Citadel worm hole tax
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2320
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Posted - 2016.04.27 09:48:43 -
[21] - Quote
When ccp first said mediums would not get the market they explained it was because they felt there was no reason to use a large in hs otherwise. It wad in the first npc tax thread iirc
Citadel worm hole tax
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1360
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Posted - 2016.04.27 09:57:03 -
[22] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:I said they filed a similar role not that they were the exact same thing. I was talking about how there is a use for these without a market. The tow of market you seem to be describing seems entirely possible via contacts. It would be better if you were prevented from accepting contacts in citadels you had no accesses to. Hell this would also fix an entirely separate issue as well
Contracts are too limited in number and I cannot define them for my friends only if I have a spread of people that I count as friend, unless I seperate out contracts for certain people, its messy time consuming and insufficient for my needs. Also contracts do not currently work in the new Citadels either.
No it is not a similar role, Citadels are meant to fill a similar role to outposts based on the size of the entities wanting to use them.
Ella's Snack bar. The Hisec sandbox is basically no longer a themepark for gankers now that CCP have rebalanced key areas. Well done CCP
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1360
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Posted - 2016.04.27 09:58:51 -
[23] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:When ccp first said mediums would not get the market they explained it was because they felt there was no reason to use a large in hs otherwise. It wad in the first npc tax thread iirc
They are wrong, a Large is better in hisec as it is better in terms of defence against hisec entities , hell I would put an XL up in hisec. CCP are wrong on this. Current hisec merc corps can take down a Medium, but a Large will be too tough for them. Sorry CCP were stupid on this.
EDIT: If Capitals can go into hisec then I would go Medium
Ella's Snack bar. The Hisec sandbox is basically no longer a themepark for gankers now that CCP have rebalanced key areas. Well done CCP
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2320
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Posted - 2016.04.27 10:02:42 -
[24] - Quote
Not even close a citadel has a small force multiplier but you need a similar sized defence fleet to protect all sizes However a medium you only need to defend 1/2 as often as a large.
Citadel worm hole tax
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2320
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Posted - 2016.04.27 10:03:37 -
[25] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:I said they filed a similar role not that they were the exact same thing. I was talking about how there is a use for these without a market. The tow of market you seem to be describing seems entirely possible via contacts. It would be better if you were prevented from accepting contacts in citadels you had no accesses to. Hell this would also fix an entirely separate issue as well Contracts are too limited in number and I cannot define them for my friends only if I have a spread of people that I count as friend, unless I seperate out contracts for certain people, its messy time consuming and insufficient for my needs. Also contracts do not currently work in the new Citadels either. No it is not a similar role, Citadels are meant to fill a similar role to outposts based on the size of the entities wanting to use them.
You can't define who buys your market order either though
Citadel worm hole tax
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1360
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Posted - 2016.04.27 10:17:46 -
[26] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Not even close a citadel has a small force multiplier but you need a similar sized defence fleet to protect all sizes However a medium you only need to defend 1/2 as often as a large.
The difference in hisec is simply this, no capitals, rather like putting a Large in a C1. Add to that the attitude of almost all the hisec merc corps that refuse to take out large POS's As long as hisec entities did not upset larger 0.0 alliances they would find an XL easier to defend then a Medium against the threat matrix in hisec. You live in Wh space, I live in hisec and 0.0.
Ella's Snack bar. The Hisec sandbox is basically no longer a themepark for gankers now that CCP have rebalanced key areas. Well done CCP
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1360
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Posted - 2016.04.27 10:21:25 -
[27] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:I said they filed a similar role not that they were the exact same thing. I was talking about how there is a use for these without a market. The tow of market you seem to be describing seems entirely possible via contacts. It would be better if you were prevented from accepting contacts in citadels you had no accesses to. Hell this would also fix an entirely separate issue as well Contracts are too limited in number and I cannot define them for my friends only if I have a spread of people that I count as friend, unless I seperate out contracts for certain people, its messy time consuming and insufficient for my needs. Also contracts do not currently work in the new Citadels either. No it is not a similar role, Citadels are meant to fill a similar role to outposts based on the size of the entities wanting to use them. You can't define who buys your market order either though
They stated that you could control who had access to the market, but in any case I said no remote access and the need to actually dock.
Ella's Snack bar. The Hisec sandbox is basically no longer a themepark for gankers now that CCP have rebalanced key areas. Well done CCP
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2320
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Posted - 2016.04.27 10:23:27 -
[28] - Quote
So did you just glance over when I said they could just do the same thing for contracts? Fixing your issue as well as an issue involving new players accepting contacts from places they didn't know couldn't dock?
Citadel worm hole tax
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2320
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Posted - 2016.04.27 10:25:52 -
[29] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Not even close a citadel has a small force multiplier but you need a similar sized defence fleet to protect all sizes However a medium you only need to defend 1/2 as often as a large. The difference in hisec is simply this, no capitals, rather like putting a Large in a C1. Add to that the attitude of almost all the hisec merc corps that refuse to take out large POS's As long as hisec entities did not upset larger 0.0 alliances they would find an XL easier to defend then a Medium against the threat matrix in hisec. You live in Wh space, I live in hisec and 0.0.
The larger citadels generally get better at defending themselves from capitals rather than sub caps. And it takes more effort to kill a med citadel than it does to kill a large pos so after these things lose their novelty I can't imagine many in hs getting sieged (with asset security there is even less reward in killing them compared to pos)
Citadel worm hole tax
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1360
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Posted - 2016.04.27 10:27:12 -
[30] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:So did you just glance over when I said they could just do the same thing for contracts? Fixing your issue as well as an issue involving new players accepting contacts from places they didn't know couldn't dock?
That is a different issue, contracts do not work period, I have actually tried to do this using contracts, you suggested it, I said no having tried to do it, I repeat the options for contracts means I cannot cover the people I want to sell to. It does not work, I have limited numbers and I have to create contratcs for the same thing for the corp or alliance I am in and then for specifc people or make them for everyone, come on think it through.
Ella's Snack bar. The Hisec sandbox is basically no longer a themepark for gankers now that CCP have rebalanced key areas. Well done CCP
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