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Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross Sev3rance
241
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Posted - 2016.05.01 20:25:33 -
[1] - Quote
And no, this isn't about Jump Fatigue :)
We've been doing a lot of testing on the test server - and because of 1) the huge alpha of new fighter missile salvos, 2) the ability to recall to repair fighters, and 3) the buff to fighter EHP with the release of T2 fighters etc. - it is basically impossible to kill a carrier with a small gang (3-4) of black ops now. We've tested DPS fits, remote rep sins, buffer fits, grappler + target painters for killing fighters, etc. (and none of it works). The best way to kill fighters now is of course with Grams, anti-fighter fighters (which black ops can't use).
Basically, as a result, you now require capitals or supercapitals to hunt carriers. I'm not just basing this off my experience testing on SISI with carriers. I did a check on zKillboard: if you go and scroll through Chimera losses, you'll see that there are no more small-gang black ops carrier kills. Most of these killmails now have at least one capital or supercapital on them.
If you scroll back in the killboards to before the Citadel patch you'll find loads of small gang kills of carriers. Just see Gulnar's killboard for an example, who could regularly kill carriers with just two Sins (e.g. THIS kill for example) by killing off the fighters, rendering the carrier helpless. Post-citadel, this is no longer possible.
Solution: Black ops need a bonus that allows them to kill fighters more easily, similarly to the anti-figher units that carriers can use. This would help them fulfill the same deep-space hunting role that they had prior to the Citadel patch. It's less about giving them a new bonus, and more about giving them a role back that the recent patch indirectly (and probably unintentionally) nerfed.
TL;DR - New fighters are OP vs. subcaps. This is a good thing for carriers, but bad for blops, which used to kill fighters in first in order to attack carriers. Give them a bonus which allows them to kill fighters more easily, essentially bringing them back to pre-citadel functionality.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2372
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Posted - 2016.05.01 20:30:35 -
[2] - Quote
Maybe don't just use blops to kill them you have a bridge use it. T3 are very strong against fighters do to their high ehp and lower sig.
Carriers have now been rebalanced to pure anti sub cap ships so yes a small sub cap gang is going to have trouble with them
Citadel worm hole tax
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Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale Black Marker
217
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Posted - 2016.05.01 21:03:28 -
[3] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Maybe don't just use blops to kill them you have a bridge use it. T3 are very strong against fighters do to their high ehp and lower sig.
Carriers have now been rebalanced to pure anti sub cap ships so yes a small sub cap gang is going to have trouble with them Are you telling him to fit a bridge on a COMBAT blops?
When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
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Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross Sev3rance
241
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Posted - 2016.05.01 21:32:01 -
[4] - Quote
Linus Gorp wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Maybe don't just use blops to kill them you have a bridge use it. T3 are very strong against fighters do to their high ehp and lower sig.
Carriers have now been rebalanced to pure anti sub cap ships so yes a small sub cap gang is going to have trouble with them Are you telling him to fit a bridge on a COMBAT blops?
^^ This exactly. That's a sin (no pun intended).
I should probably fit my Widow without any jams too, right lugh-crow? |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2372
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Posted - 2016.05.01 22:22:56 -
[5] - Quote
Linus Gorp wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Maybe don't just use blops to kill them you have a bridge use it. T3 are very strong against fighters do to their high ehp and lower sig.
Carriers have now been rebalanced to pure anti sub cap ships so yes a small sub cap gang is going to have trouble with them Are you telling him to fit a bridge on a COMBAT blops?
No I'm telling him to bring one with a bridge and not use pure blops. Adapt to the meta don't adapt the meta
Citadel worm hole tax
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Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross Sev3rance
241
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Posted - 2016.05.01 22:57:40 -
[6] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Linus Gorp wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Maybe don't just use blops to kill them you have a bridge use it. T3 are very strong against fighters do to their high ehp and lower sig.
Carriers have now been rebalanced to pure anti sub cap ships so yes a small sub cap gang is going to have trouble with them Are you telling him to fit a bridge on a COMBAT blops? No I'm telling him to bring one with a bridge and not use pure blops. Adapt to the meta don't adapt the meta
Everything you say seems to be against whatever people suggest. I edited out my childish comment from earlier, but I'm bringing it back just to say you probably expect us to fit widows without Jams too. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2372
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Posted - 2016.05.01 23:02:51 -
[7] - Quote
Well yes you can fit widows without jams.... in fact a falcon fills that role better. I generally only fit an ecm burst to mine if any.
And yes I'll disagree with someone who wines because they need to adjust their strategy. Fighters have a good deal of weaknesses one of them being that they can be easily tackled or made permanently unable of swapping targets if you ecm them with a power greater than 8
Citadel worm hole tax
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Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale Black Marker
218
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Posted - 2016.05.02 06:37:17 -
[8] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Well yes you can fit widows without jams.... in fact a falcon fills that role better. I generally only fit an ecm burst to mine if any.
And yes I'll disagree with someone who wines because they need to adjust their strategy. Fighters have a good deal of weaknesses one of them being that they can be easily tackled or made permanently unable of swapping targets if you ecm them with a power greater than 8 Any half-decent carrier pilot will just recall them while having targets locked. When he drops them again, he'll immediately activate their ability and pop something, then repeat from the beginning. A Falcon won't be able to lock and jam that in time and good luck jamming that carrier instead.
When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
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Zealot Sveta
Coolin Corporation
0
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Posted - 2016.05.02 06:55:36 -
[9] - Quote
Murkar Omaristos wrote:And no, this isn't about Jump Fatigue :) If you scroll back in the killboards to before the Citadel patch you'll find loads of small gang kills of carriers. Just see Gulnar's killboard for an example, who could regularly kill carriers with just two Sins (e.g. THIS kill for example) by killing off the fighters, rendering the carrier helpless. Post-citadel, this is no longer possible. I agree imbalancing is bad. It looks to me that carriers can kill anything and everything now.
Before Citadel i feel that two Sins being enough to kill a single carrier and do it almost unannounced is kind of IMBA too. Maybe they need a middle ground?
It is good you are calling this out and nice work testing it all on the test server. Thanks.
Immersion: Improved docking/undocking animations/mechanics
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
9837
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Posted - 2016.05.02 07:21:22 -
[10] - Quote
Use Stealth Bombers dude.
Bridge 15 of them in and watch the carrier melt.
How did you Veterans start?
"Learn how things work. The intricacies, interactions, and hard limits... knowing these things will grant you far more power in the long run."
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Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale Black Marker
218
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Posted - 2016.05.02 08:23:21 -
[11] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Use Stealth Bombers dude.
Bridge 15 of them in and watch the carrier melt. Bridge 15 of them in and watch the carrier wipe them out.
When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2936
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Posted - 2016.05.02 12:35:40 -
[12] - Quote
Linus Gorp wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:Bridge 15 of them in and watch the carrier melt. Bridge 15 of them in and watch the carrier wipe them out. 15 isn't enough to kill the carrier but it can melt the fighters. And I sincerely doubt the carrier is going to be a threat to the stealth bombers.
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale Black Marker
218
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Posted - 2016.05.02 13:01:04 -
[13] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Linus Gorp wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:Bridge 15 of them in and watch the carrier melt. Bridge 15 of them in and watch the carrier wipe them out. 15 isn't enough to kill the carrier but it can melt the fighters. And I sincerely doubt the carrier is going to be a threat to the stealth bombers. Hahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahaha...
Get up to date.
When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2377
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Posted - 2016.05.02 14:39:51 -
[14] - Quote
Linus Gorp wrote:Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Linus Gorp wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:Bridge 15 of them in and watch the carrier melt. Bridge 15 of them in and watch the carrier wipe them out. 15 isn't enough to kill the carrier but it can melt the fighters. And I sincerely doubt the carrier is going to be a threat to the stealth bombers. Hahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahaha... Get up to date.
lol you bridge in a few bombers with a rapier and those fighters are not getting close hell if they start to warp out and back like normal
as to the carrier just popping fighters back out if you jam them don't sit that close to the carrier.
also you can tank any blops to survive one salvo from three flights at that point any t3 logi can rep you back to full b4 their cool down is over
Citadel worm hole tax
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2800
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Posted - 2016.05.02 15:07:41 -
[15] - Quote
Zealot Sveta wrote:Murkar Omaristos wrote:And no, this isn't about Jump Fatigue :) If you scroll back in the killboards to before the Citadel patch you'll find loads of small gang kills of carriers. Just see Gulnar's killboard for an example, who could regularly kill carriers with just two Sins (e.g. THIS kill for example) by killing off the fighters, rendering the carrier helpless. Post-citadel, this is no longer possible. I agree imbalancing is bad. It looks to me that carriers can kill anything and everything now. Before Citadel i feel that two Sins being enough to kill a single carrier and do it almost unannounced is kind of IMBA too. Maybe they need a middle ground? It is good you are calling this out and nice work testing it all on the test server. Thanks.
Carrier were re-balanced to be an anti-sub cap platform. Bringing 2 sub cap to kill them is no longer a good option. The meta changed, it's time for people to find the new magic solution to problems. Trying to fit the old square peg in what is now a round hole is not supposed to work. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2377
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Posted - 2016.05.02 16:00:18 -
[16] - Quote
for further info the sub caps carriers are very vulnerable to are
interceptors
t3d
most cruisers
these ships are either to hard for a carrier to hit to fast for fighters to keep up with or deal great damage to fighters
Citadel worm hole tax
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Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross Sev3rance
242
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Posted - 2016.05.02 21:32:35 -
[17] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:for further info the sub caps carriers are very vulnerable to are
interceptors
t3d
most cruisers
these ships are either to hard for a carrier to hit to fast for fighters to keep up with or deal great damage to fighters
Thanks for the advice, I'll try bridging Svipuls and Ceptors with my black ops. |
Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross Sev3rance
242
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Posted - 2016.05.02 21:39:44 -
[18] - Quote
Zealot Sveta wrote:Murkar Omaristos wrote:And no, this isn't about Jump Fatigue :) If you scroll back in the killboards to before the Citadel patch you'll find loads of small gang kills of carriers. Just see Gulnar's killboard for an example, who could regularly kill carriers with just two Sins (e.g. THIS kill for example) by killing off the fighters, rendering the carrier helpless. Post-citadel, this is no longer possible. I agree imbalancing is bad. It looks to me that carriers can kill anything and everything now. Before Citadel i feel that two Sins being enough to kill a single carrier and do it almost unannounced is kind of IMBA too. Maybe they need a middle ground? It is good you are calling this out and nice work testing it all on the test server. Thanks.
^^ I think this is the most appropriate statement. There needs to be some balance. Two sins being able to kill a carrier is OP, but four should be able to do the job.
I should note though that Gulnar's Sin fit was not normal. It cost 8bil, he was basically dealing the damage of 4 sins with almost double the tank of a regular sin fit. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2382
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Posted - 2016.05.03 00:24:00 -
[19] - Quote
so patch note claims the ecm bug of fighters has been fixed they can now simply be perma jammed so bring your ecm widow and you're fine
Citadel worm hole tax
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Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross Sev3rance
242
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Posted - 2016.05.03 00:46:44 -
[20] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:so patch note claims the ecm bug of fighters has been fixed they can now simply be perma jammed so bring your ecm widow and you're fine
\o/ op success. If fighters can be jammed then we good. |
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2389
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Posted - 2016.05.03 02:16:52 -
[21] - Quote
yeah but i would not expect to find many of these out for much longer as ppl learn how bad carriers are now
Citadel worm hole tax
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Axhind
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
249
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Posted - 2016.05.03 08:50:02 -
[22] - Quote
Murkar Omaristos wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:for further info the sub caps carriers are very vulnerable to are
interceptors
t3d
most cruisers
these ships are either to hard for a carrier to hit to fast for fighters to keep up with or deal great damage to fighters Thanks for the advice, I'll try bridging Svipuls (*ahem*svipuls online*ahem*) and Ceptors with my black ops. Oh wait... Also forget bridging. I'm talking about combat blops here. Bridge blops requires you to have 10 guys in bombers ready to go. That's not practical for deep null deployments, and definitely not for multiboxing if you want to solo-ish PVP. Also, it's obvious that you've not tested out the fighter mechanics vs. blops on SISI. I am doing testing every day to see what's viable so that my statements are based on fact and not just opinion. "Don't use your combat blops" is not an acceptable solution to the new fighters being pretty much invulnerable to something they were never meant to be safe from.
So basically. Whaaaaaaaaaaa, I want free, zero risk, ganks, whaaaaaaaa.
Game changes and with that you have to change too. Your free and almost zero risk ganks are gone. Adapt or go to wow. You are hardly the only one that has to adapt to the changes introduced in the game so stop being self-entitled prick that wants kills served on a silver plate. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2389
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Posted - 2016.05.03 08:54:47 -
[23] - Quote
Murkar Omaristos wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:for further info the sub caps carriers are very vulnerable to are
interceptors
t3d
most cruisers
these ships are either to hard for a carrier to hit to fast for fighters to keep up with or deal great damage to fighters Thanks for the advice, I'll try bridging Svipuls (*ahem*svipuls online*ahem*) and Ceptors with my black ops. Oh wait... Also forget bridging. I'm talking about combat blops here. Bridge blops requires you to have 10 guys in bombers ready to go. That's not practical for deep null deployments, and definitely not for multiboxing if you want to solo-ish PVP. Also, it's obvious that you've not tested out the fighter mechanics vs. blops on SISI. I am doing testing every day to see what's viable so that my statements are based on fact and not just opinion. "Don't use your combat blops" is not an acceptable solution to the new fighters being pretty much invulnerable to something they were never meant to be safe from.
..... so wait you had been testing every day but didn't try ecm? What were you just trying the same old tactics over and over in a new meta? Also those ships I listed were not just for blops it was general info. I also love how you need 10 guys to justify a bridge I'll fit that on a combat widow even when bridging in only 2-3 other people. This really seems like you just don't want to adjust how you have become comfortable playing.
And who are you to say what carriers should and should not be safe from?they are no longer the same ships they were before patch.in fact they are nearly all new ships that share a name and hull to the old ones
Citadel worm hole tax
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Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale Black Marker
220
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Posted - 2016.05.03 09:38:32 -
[24] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:I also love how you need 10 guys to justify a bridge I'll fit that on a combat widow even when bridging in only 2-3 other people. Thank you for stating that you have no clue about combat blops fits.
And like I said before, ECM on fighters *does not work* against someone that actually has a brain.
When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2390
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Posted - 2016.05.03 09:42:36 -
[25] - Quote
Linus Gorp wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:I also love how you need 10 guys to justify a bridge I'll fit that on a combat widow even when bridging in only 2-3 other people. Thank you for stating that you have no clue about combat blops fits. And like I said before, ECM on fighters *does not work* against someone that actually has a brain.
Lol why because I drop one utility high on one of our blops?
And ecm on fighters works perfectly fine so long as you are more than 10km from the carrier now that the bug is fixed
Citadel worm hole tax
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Axhind
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
249
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Posted - 2016.05.03 10:53:03 -
[26] - Quote
Linus Gorp wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:I also love how you need 10 guys to justify a bridge I'll fit that on a combat widow even when bridging in only 2-3 other people. Thank you for stating that you have no clue about combat blops fits. And like I said before, ECM on fighters *does not work* against someone that actually has a brain.
So you are demanding that under no circumstance should a carrier be able to fight off 3-4 blops? No matter how good he is and no matter how bad blops pilots are?
I didn't see anywhere stated that you are entitled to free carrier kills. If you want kills then work for them like everyone else. If not then run around in interceptors and go after ishtars (ofc that is more risk than blops but hey you get dank kills). |
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale Black Marker
220
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Posted - 2016.05.03 11:55:20 -
[27] - Quote
Axhind wrote:Linus Gorp wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:I also love how you need 10 guys to justify a bridge I'll fit that on a combat widow even when bridging in only 2-3 other people. Thank you for stating that you have no clue about combat blops fits. And like I said before, ECM on fighters *does not work* against someone that actually has a brain. So you are demanding that under no circumstance should a carrier be able to fight off 3-4 blops? No matter how good he is and no matter how bad blops pilots are? I didn't see anywhere stated that you are entitled to free carrier kills. If you want kills then work for them like everyone else. If not then run around in interceptors and go after ishtars (ofc that is more risk than blops but hey you get dank kills). Your answer to my post makes literally no sense. Instead of answering to something I never said, nor indicated, how about you turn little bee brain on and try to comprehend and understand before making dumb posts?
When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2393
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Posted - 2016.05.03 12:46:59 -
[28] - Quote
i think he hit quote and not reply if you read what he said he is responding to the topic as a hole
Citadel worm hole tax
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Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale Black Marker
220
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Posted - 2016.05.03 14:02:09 -
[29] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:i think he hit quote and not reply if you read what he said he is responding to the topic as a hole He posted the same thing a few posts ago in response to someone else. He did it intentionally without understanding my post in the slightest way.
When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2394
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Posted - 2016.05.03 14:55:37 -
[30] - Quote
not like yours claiming i cant fit a ship because i use my utility high differently was so much better or your failure to see just how over powered a permanent jam is
Citadel worm hole tax
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