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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
818
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Posted - 2016.05.03 14:11:36 -
[31] - Quote
I will not comment on the OP, but I do want to address this flat out lie that has now been told so often that it is believed to be the truth.
Black Pedro wrote:It does? CCP told us that more new players seem to stay with the game if they are preyed upon during the trial.
CCP Rise wrote:We have tried and tried to validate the myth that griefing has a pronounced affect on new players - we have failed. The strongest indicators for a new player staying with EVE are associated with social activity: joining corps, using market and contract systems, pvping, etc. Isolating players away from the actual sandbox seems very contrary to what we would like to accomplish. CCP has NEVER stated that being killed has a positive affect on player retention. In fact the post you linked by CCP Rise (quoted above so others dol not have to follow the link to read it) sums up the content of the video you linked as well. The strongest factors for players staying in the game are social activities and social connections, as CCP Rise points out those activities and connections are not tied to any specific game play style.
That players leave this game because of non-consensual PvP activity is not open for debate, it is a fact. All that is left for debate is whether those players leaving is good or bad for the game, but even then CCP makes that decision.
Looking back over the last 5 years or so and the changes that have come to the game making ganking harder, many blame the whining carebears, I see it a different way. In all of those cases ganking and the players that were leaving the game as a result of it were becoming a threat to CCP's cash flow and to protect that cash flow CCP adjusted the game making ganking harder. A simple economic decision that I fully expect will be made many times in the future of EvE because it is good to have principals and to stick to them. However when those principals start to threaten the very survival of the company then it is wise to re-assess those principals and how they are applied to the game you provide to your customers. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2394
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Posted - 2016.05.03 14:59:38 -
[32] - Quote
want to know what gets players to quit? god awful ceo that prey on them for some sort of personal gain. refusing to actually spend time helping them and instead just pulling mass numbers out of rookie help and making their first few days of eve a living hell
Citadel worm hole tax
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
2466
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Posted - 2016.05.03 15:41:32 -
[33] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:CCP has NEVER stated that being killed has a positive affect on player retention. In fact the post you linked by CCP Rise (quoted above so others dol not have to follow the link to read it) sums up the content of the video you linked as well. The strongest factors for players staying in the game are social activities and social connections, as CCP Rise points out those activities and connections are not tied to any specific game play style. No they didn't and they likely can't know unless they did a blind trial like they did for Opportunities. But they did say there is a positive correlation between getting exploded during the trial and staying with the game.
Correlation does not prove causation, but this observations that more explosions=more subscribers certainly fits that with idea that players that tryout Eve are more engaged by a spaceship fight than by silently mining in a highsec belt for two weeks before uninstalling. CCP Rise's statement that walling new players off from the greater sandbox universe is not what they want to do makes perfect sense.
Donnachadh wrote:Looking back over the last 5 years or so and the changes that have come to the game making ganking harder, many blame the whining carebears, I see it a different way. In all of those cases ganking and the players that were leaving the game as a result of it were becoming a threat to CCP's cash flow and to protect that cash flow CCP adjusted the game making ganking harder. A simple economic decision that I fully expect will be made many times in the future of EvE because it is good to have principals and to stick to them. However when those principals start to threaten the very survival of the company then it is wise to re-assess those principals and how they are applied to the game you provide to your customers. You over-think it. CCP has confirmed many times that non-consensual PvP is intended game play. Nerfs accumulate because highsec aggressors are willing and motivated to adapt and get better at using the rules to their advantage, while generally carebears like to bleat loudly about how unfair things are and will not adapt to anything that requires them to take their eyes of Netflix. The rates of ganking are probably only marginally affected by ganking nerfs. Sure, the rules of the game alter the effort/risk/profitability of the activity, but if you play the game as a criminal or pirate or wardeccer, you are not going to stop if CCP makes a slight nerf here or there. You are still going to go out and non-consensuallly explode players in highsec even if your target selection is forced to change by some nerf, and given that carebears usually respond to safety by packing even more loot into their ships, it sort of balances out long-term.
Balance nerfs aside, when CCP comes in with a new feature or mechanic, they tend to be much truer to the non-consensual design of the game. Citadels are an excellent example of this as they have removed the wardec loophole and highsec residents are now forced to defend their space stations against non-consensual attack instead of folding up shop and hiding in a station. As to your theory, the removal of highsec AWOXing was the only clear cut case I can see where you can argue CCP removed non-consensual PvP for the sake of the bottom line, and this is because they mistakenly though that it would increase number of new players getting into the social environment of a highsec corp and as we discussed before, player interactions (like ganking, wardecs and even being in a terrible highsec corp) keep people in the game.
There is no accountant calculating on the back of an envelope how much increased cash flow buffing EHP or reducing CONCORD response time would make for CCP. Any consideration to those metrics are done several layers abstract perhaps looking at population numbers and overall playing behaviour. And given CCP's recent rekindled love of player-driven content, I expect more of that non-consensual gameplay, not more safety, finding its way to highsec in the near future.
I literally can't wait to explode me some drilling platforms.
Why Do They Gank?
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2394
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Posted - 2016.05.03 15:44:07 -
[34] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Donnachadh wrote:CCP has NEVER stated that being killed has a positive affect on player retention. In fact the post you linked by CCP Rise (quoted above so others dol not have to follow the link to read it) sums up the content of the video you linked as well. The strongest factors for players staying in the game are social activities and social connections, as CCP Rise points out those activities and connections are not tied to any specific game play style. No they didn't and they likely can't know unless they did a blind trial like they did for Opportunities. But they did say there is a positive correlation between getting exploded during the trial and staying with the game.
immidiatly followed with the disclamer that the sample size was to small to be conclusive
Citadel worm hole tax
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2395
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Posted - 2016.05.03 16:01:26 -
[35] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:[quote=Donnachadh] I literally can't wait to explode me some drilling platforms.
i hope they go with the idea of making them spawn belts for moon goo
this will force a lot of corps to hire outside industry alliance to do a job they see as beneath them driving player interaction along with the ppl who will not only gank the miners fight over the belts and fight over the stations.
so many levels of content with just one bit of game design ^.^
its things like this that restore my faiith a little in ccp (god i hope they go through with it)
Citadel worm hole tax
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FoxFire Ayderan
210
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Posted - 2016.05.03 19:54:30 -
[36] - Quote
You're right Donnachadh.
And I seriously doubt that non-consentual PvP (or not really PvP but being ganked - particularly if it happens often) would have a retention effect on players.
I come and go now myself. And this is largely due to the inability to be in a large high-sec player corp where I can enjoy the community aspect of the game, without having to not only worry about suicide gankers (bad enough), but also the non-consentual side of War Decs. A severly broken mechanic, that much more needs to favor the target of a War Dec, including things like making non-combat ships off limits, giving the target a means of ending the War (the attackable structure idea), allowing the target to get in a bribing war with CONCORD, lettng individual players opt-out of the War Dec in some fashion without having to drop corp (and having a mile long employment history), etc...
Non-consentual PvP (non-consentual anything), is never something anyone enjoys and I will bet my wallet that a very large numbr of players have left the game because of it, at least to the extent that it's gotten out of hand or they have to play in a constant state of paranoia or looking over their shoulder.
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3229
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Posted - 2016.05.04 10:18:29 -
[37] - Quote
FoxFire Ayderan wrote:
Non-consentual PvP (non-consentual anything), is never something anyone enjoys and I will bet my wallet that a very large numbr of players have left the game because of it, at least to the extent that it's gotten out of hand or they have to play in a constant state of paranoia or looking over their shoulder.
Non-consensual pvp is why many of us play. Im prey and predator to various players, but no matter which side im on, this is why i play. Its challenging, its fun, its rewarding.
You joined a game centred around the core principal that anyone is a target at anytime. If you dont like that or don't understand it then you are just playing the wrong game. Its not a terrible thing, it's a pretty hardcore and a niche game. Its not for everyone. What is terrible though is pushing the bull **** the OP is and whining that a game they dont have to play should be tailored to their playstyle. Non-consensual pvp defines eve. Devs say it, players say it, and the less hardcore the game becomes, the faster it loses subs.
You've just said you haven't joined a decent corp. If you had, you'd see the people enjoying the hardcore pvp sandbox.
The truth however, is that more players quit because they just don't get into the game. They quit before they get ganked or wardecced. They quit before they get a chance to get into a good corp.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2405
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Posted - 2016.05.04 10:31:08 -
[38] - Quote
FoxFire Ayderan wrote:
Non-consentual PvP (non-consentual anything), is never something anyone enjoys and I will bet my wallet that a very large numbr of players have left the game because of it, at least to the extent that it's gotten out of hand or they have to play in a constant state of paranoia or looking over their shoulder.
This is why so many play eve hell their older add campaigns thrived on this point. The butterfly effect trailer (one of the best IMHO) was full of it
To be honest I think ccp should go back and watch that trailer they seem to have forgotten alot of it lately
Citadel worm hole tax
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
820
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Posted - 2016.05.04 13:03:17 -
[39] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:No they didn't and they likely can't know unless they did a blind trial like they did for Opportunities. But they did say there is a positive correlation between getting exploded during the trial and staying with the game. Again with the lies about getting exploded being good for player retention. Please prove your assertion by posting something, anything where any person that works for CCP or has worked for CCP(past tense) has ever clearly stated that being exploded is a positive for player retention.
The linked post obviously does not. The linked video only states that being exploded is not a significant factor in player retention and that is a knife that cuts both ways. It means that being exploded is not a significant factor in players leaving, it also means that it is not a significant factor in players staying in the game.
So how about it Black Pedro, got that link you can post up to prove your assumptions? Something other than the two that have been posted here already because neither of them prove your assumptions. |
Ethel A Rosenberg
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2016.05.04 13:13:12 -
[40] - Quote
Bunnie Hop wrote:Yeah you may as well lock this, making a suggestion on an Eve forum is a waste of time.....Lovely community this is
I totally agree, never have I encountered a more toxic community then eve. Bring anything up in, now wait for it (Player Features and Ideas Discussion) and you are attacked as though you're the last steak on the planet.
if you don't like an idea that's totally fine but do you all have such small epeens you feel the need to verbally attack a person
And CCP sit in the shadows masturbating to the spectacle? nothing like burning down the place because you don't like the outcome guys keep up the great work, humanity applause you |
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
2478
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Posted - 2016.05.04 13:20:50 -
[41] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote: Again with the lies about getting exploded being good for player retention. Please prove your assertion by posting something, anything where any person that works for CCP or has worked for CCP(past tense) has ever clearly stated that being exploded is a positive for player retention.
What lie? Where did I say getting exploded is 100% guaranteed cause of increase player retention?
All I did was repeat the data which shows a clear correlation between the two things and expressed support for CCP's rational interpretation of that data that stuff happening during the trial is more likely to keep players than no stuff happening during the trial.
You clearly don't share that interpretation. That's fine, there is no conclusive evidence either way. But I don't think I am being too heretical by suggesting that solo mining or even solo missioning where absolutely nothing interesting happens is not the greatest introduction to complex, social game that is Eve Online and may be the cause of many people not staying with the game. CCP has said they think that is the case many times including during CCP Ghost's presentation this year, and CCP Rise's famous 2014 talk where he talks about players burning out and unsubscribing after getting stuck on the "Leveling my Raven" train to nowhere.
Believe what you want. No one has done (or probably could do) the studies that are apparently necessary to dissuade you of your preconceived notions. Clearly though, CCP has looked at the data and decided that getting players involved with the game, even if it occasionally gets them exploded, is better than the alternative of trying to bubble-wrap them away from the real game play of Eve Online and boring them out of the game.
I happen to agree with them.
Why Do They Gank?
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2408
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Posted - 2016.05.04 14:32:21 -
[42] - Quote
Ethel A Rosenberg wrote:Bunnie Hop wrote:Yeah you may as well lock this, making a suggestion on an Eve forum is a waste of time.....Lovely community this is I totally agree, never have I encountered a more toxic community then eve. Bring anything up in, now wait for it (Player Features and Ideas Discussion) and you are attacked as though you're the last steak on the planet. if you don't like an idea that's totally fine but do you all have such small epeens you feel the need to verbally attack a person And CCP sit in the shadows masturbating to the spectacle? nothing like burning down the place because you don't like the outcome guys keep up the great work, humanity applause you
YOU are not attacked unless YOU do something dumb YOUR IDEA will be though. thats because it's our job to tear your unrefined idea down until YOU can put the peaces into an acceptable order.
no one needs you to tell them how good their idea is but we all need ppl to tell us how dumb it is
Citadel worm hole tax
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FoxFire Ayderan
212
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Posted - 2016.05.04 17:37:08 -
[43] - Quote
Ethel A Rosenberg wrote:Bunnie Hop wrote:Yeah you may as well lock this, making a suggestion on an Eve forum is a waste of time.....Lovely community this is I totally agree, never have I encountered a more toxic community then eve. Bring anything up in, now wait for it (Player Features and Ideas Discussion) and you are attacked as though you're the last steak on the planet. if you don't like an idea that's totally fine but do you all have such small epeens you feel the need to verbally attack a person And CCP sit in the shadows masturbating to the spectacle? nothing like burning down the place because you don't like the outcome guys keep up the great work, humanity applause you
Spot on.
Though I wouldn't worry about the peanut gallery rubes, who from what I can tell are here just to crap on anyone elses ideas that don't comport with thier very specific style of play or they fear will take resources away from the things they demand CCP to do for them.
From what I've witnessed over the years, not only does CCP implement a lot of the ideas that the nay-saying rubes try to crap all over, but SO much of the awesome stuff and changes they have put in (because this is their universe and they know what attracts a broader audience) are things that had someone proposed them in F&I these jackasses heads would have exploded with rage against the idea, and told you how utterly worthless not only the idea is but you are as well for suggesting such stupidity.
So my advice to anyone who's been assaulted by these sociopaths is don't listen to the freaks, CCP is paying attention for good ineresting and original ideas and don't be surprised if an idea or change you proposed which they denigrated and berrated shows up in the game one day. I've seen it happen all the time.
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ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
7076
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Posted - 2016.05.04 21:17:28 -
[44] - Quote
Quote:Forum rules5. Trolling is prohibited.Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.
Thread closed.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Vice Admiral
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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