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virm pasuul
The Congregation No Handlebars.
382
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Posted - 2016.05.03 16:13:29 -
[1] - Quote
Can anyone make sense of this please? https://www.themittani.com/features/plex-wall-incident
The way I read it the scheme results in leveraging skills to get buy up orders up and then selling to those buy orders to get the escrow ISK back in hand. Repeat multiple times, and you are left with a ton of buy orders and sod all ISK in escrow. Pro - it all went up at the cheaper tax/broker rate. Con- you still need to pay 76% remaining on each PLEX sold to your buys.
Thoughts? |
Rhivre
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
880
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Posted - 2016.05.03 16:16:21 -
[2] - Quote
virm pasuul wrote:Can anyone make sense of this please? https://www.themittani.com/features/plex-wall-incident The way I read it the scheme results in leveraging skills to get buy up orders up and then selling to those buy orders to get the escrow ISK back in hand. Repeat multiple times, and you are left with a ton of buy orders and sod all ISK in escrow. Pro - it all went up at the cheaper tax/broker rate. Con- you still need to pay 76% remaining on each PLEX sold to your buys. Thoughts?
Basically, extreme leveraging
Move the items up one order at a time
Sell
The profit is the % you make on the sale, which, when compared to your initial investment is a big return.
1% profit on 18T is 180b, 2% is 360b etc etc etc, which seeing as you only initially tie up a fraction of 18T in isk, is a good investment
Fluffy Bunny Pic!
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Aaron Honk
Distributed Denial of Service
108
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Posted - 2016.05.03 23:42:36 -
[3] - Quote
Soon you will be able to buy plex at 0% broker with region wide orders in citadels, I don't think he though about this. |
Fin Udan
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
24
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Posted - 2016.05.03 23:44:04 -
[4] - Quote
virm pasuul wrote:Can anyone make sense of this please? https://www.themittani.com/features/plex-wall-incident The way I read it the scheme results in leveraging skills to get buy up orders up and then selling to those buy orders to get the escrow ISK back in hand. Repeat multiple times, and you are left with a ton of buy orders and sod all ISK in escrow. Pro - it all went up at the cheaper tax/broker rate. Con- you still need to pay 76% remaining on each PLEX sold to your buys. Thoughts?
It's very simple actually but possibly beyond your limited intellect to understand.
I trade Eve Mogul
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Zahara Cody
Imperial Corrections Service.
259
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Posted - 2016.05.04 00:20:56 -
[5] - Quote
The Great Wall of PLEX
Hating is free, that's why poor people do it the best.
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Areen Sassel
92
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Posted - 2016.05.04 01:37:24 -
[6] - Quote
virm pasuul wrote:The way I read it the scheme results in leveraging skills to get buy up orders up and then selling to those buy orders to get the escrow ISK back in hand. Repeat multiple times, and you are left with a ton of buy orders and sod all ISK in escrow.
Leaving aside Fun Fin's "contributions", I admit I don't get it either. As far as I can tell (elsethread) the idea is to sell them fast enough that you always have ISK to buy when people sell to your buy offers; but I don't see how you can possibly guarantee that (especially if you have successfully tied up all your ISK), let alone turn a profit on each one - and if you did tie up all your ISK, you _have_ to turn a profit on each one or the whole edifice of margin traded buy offers collapses at once leaving you out for all the broker fees.
I suspect probag Bear has been saved by not dumping all their capital into it; they may well have succeeded in buying a lot of PLEX and presumably the price will go up again, sooner or later. I'd be fascinated to hear from them how it all worked out. |
ISD Max Trix
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
251
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Posted - 2016.05.04 02:03:36 -
[7] - Quote
Removed an off topic post.
ISD Max Trix
Lieutenant
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
I do not respond to Evemails.
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Shayla Etherodyne
United Nations Industrial Holdings
47
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Posted - 2016.05.04 05:55:34 -
[8] - Quote
Aaron Honk wrote:Soon you will be able to buy plex at 0% broker with region wide orders in citadels, I don't think he though about this.
But citadels can make region wide orders? I doubt that. It would be very funny is Joe citadel in a secluded system can place orders with 0% broker fees in Mark citadels a guy that hate him and has set his fee at 1105. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
5803
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Posted - 2016.05.04 14:49:22 -
[9] - Quote
Aaron Honk wrote:Soon you will be able to buy plex at 0% broker with region wide orders in citadels, I don't think he though about this.
I think he has. It's the reason his business model wasn't infinitely scaleable.
The thing to note is that there were many other pressures on the PLEX price over the same period. Remains to be seen how it all shakes out.
I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
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Aaron Honk
Distributed Denial of Service
108
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Posted - 2016.05.04 15:51:16 -
[10] - Quote
Shayla Etherodyne wrote:Aaron Honk wrote:Soon you will be able to buy plex at 0% broker with region wide orders in citadels, I don't think he though about this. But citadels can make region wide orders? I doubt that. It would be very funny is Joe citadel in a secluded system can place orders with 0% broker fees in Mark citadels a guy that hate him and has set his fee at 1105.
It works on SiSi |
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Rhivre
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
880
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Posted - 2016.05.04 16:10:19 -
[11] - Quote
The concern about 0% broker fees is valid, provided he hasnt made any profit on his original investment by the time people offshore in the citadels, or that he is unable to make any profit on the orders after that.
It also assumes that the altruistic owner of the citadel is happy having 0% fees, and no trade at all coming into his actual citadel.
Fluffy Bunny Pic!
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Cista2
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
230
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Posted - 2016.05.04 16:16:43 -
[12] - Quote
Aaron Honk wrote:It works on SiSi Well that is a boon for citadels I must say (region-wide orders).
My channel: "Signatures"
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Recommended: "The Biomass Bar" (for corpse selling)
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Rhivre
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
880
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Posted - 2016.05.04 16:25:52 -
[13] - Quote
Cista2 wrote:Aaron Honk wrote:It works on SiSi Well that is a boon for citadels I must say (region-wide orders).
Yep, provided it is 1-2 jumps of a trade hub, it will be handy for buy orders being set up. Any further out and you get all the awful stations.
It is that you cant see buy orders in the citadel if you cant dock & use the market, and you cant buy from sells there either (But, if they are near hubs, they will mostly be used for placing buys on low margin items, so wont have too many sells there)
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Darkstar01
Republic University Minmatar Republic
32
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Posted - 2016.05.04 16:45:27 -
[14] - Quote
I'm a little bit puzzled.
According to probag Bear, if he had thrown his personal wallet into it, it would have been a buy order for 85 Trillion worth of PLEX. Then, he was offered a loan to do 300 Trillion, and then he was offered another loan to do 1200 Trillion before the patch.
But according to CCP's monthly economic report (and as CCP mentioned during the FanFest), there is a little under 1200 Trillion in existence in the Eve Online universe, which is the sum of all ISK throughout Player and Corporation wallets.
So, if someone were to spend real money to buy 1200 Trillion worth of PLEX, it would be mechanically impossible to sell them for 1200 Trillion ISK, because that kind of ISK does not exist in the Eve Universe. Unless, if CCP helps you magically generate some for being such a good customer.
Anyway according to him, there would have been 280,000 PLEX traded on April 27. If this happened, it would represent 28% of all the ISK in existence in entire Eve Online Universe, in 1 day....... |
Aaron Honk
Distributed Denial of Service
108
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Posted - 2016.05.04 16:49:51 -
[15] - Quote
To add insult to injury, you can't see where the order originate from, so you can't wardec the citadel that put this auction on the market
https://i.imgur.com/WYcFb1Y.png |
Rhivre
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
880
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Posted - 2016.05.04 17:34:54 -
[16] - Quote
Aaron Honk wrote:To add insult to injury, you can't see where the order originate from, so you can't wardec the citadel that put this auction on the market https://i.imgur.com/WYcFb1Y.png
you can though?
It says "Jumps = System"
So, if it says jumps = 5 you can find the citadel.
There might be hundreds of citadels 1-2 jumps from jita, which makes it harder, but, if its just 1-2 in each system, then its easier.
Its not like wardecs are expensive either.
Fluffy Bunny Pic!
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Aaron Honk
Distributed Denial of Service
108
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Posted - 2016.05.04 17:40:15 -
[17] - Quote
Rhivre wrote:Aaron Honk wrote:To add insult to injury, you can't see where the order originate from, so you can't wardec the citadel that put this auction on the market https://i.imgur.com/WYcFb1Y.png you can though? It says "Jumps = System" So, if it says jumps = 5 you can find the citadel. There might be hundreds of citadels 1-2 jumps from jita, which makes it harder, but, if its just 1-2 in each system, then its easier. Its not like wardecs are expensive either.
You know it's in the system but if it's another system it will say jump=x and there might be more than x system in range of that system, and maybe multiple citadels in all those systems |
Areen Sassel
95
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Posted - 2016.05.04 18:01:05 -
[18] - Quote
Darkstar01 wrote:Also I wonder, after spending 3 - 4 Trillion ISK just to set up the buy orders before the patch, how much ISK is there left to cover the actual PLEX purchases?
That's the core of the objection - the article details how to get all your ISK into broker fees leaving none at all to cover the purchases. |
Shayla Etherodyne
United Nations Industrial Holdings
47
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Posted - 2016.05.04 21:17:31 -
[19] - Quote
Aaron Honk wrote:Shayla Etherodyne wrote:Aaron Honk wrote:Soon you will be able to buy plex at 0% broker with region wide orders in citadels, I don't think he though about this. But citadels can make region wide orders? I doubt that. It would be very funny is Joe citadel in a secluded system can place orders with 0% broker fees in Mark citadels a guy that hate him and has set his fee at 110%. It works on SiSi
I was unable to find a citadel with a functioning market on SISI, but I didn't spend much time there.
So I can set up orders in Jita paying a friendly owned citadel broker fee? Sure it is not different from doing the same in a station where you have good standing, but with the neww fees and taxes it can make ahuge difference. |
Aaron Honk
Distributed Denial of Service
108
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Posted - 2016.05.04 21:45:31 -
[20] - Quote
Shayla Etherodyne wrote:Aaron Honk wrote:Shayla Etherodyne wrote:Aaron Honk wrote:Soon you will be able to buy plex at 0% broker with region wide orders in citadels, I don't think he though about this. But citadels can make region wide orders? I doubt that. It would be very funny is Joe citadel in a secluded system can place orders with 0% broker fees in Mark citadels a guy that hate him and has set his fee at 110%. It works on SiSi I was unable to find a citadel with a functioning market on SISI, but I didn't spend much time there. So I can set up orders in Jita paying a friendly owned citadel broker fee? Sure it is not different from doing the same in a station where you have good standing, but with the neww fees and taxes it can make ahuge difference.
If you go to the market browser in the business folder, you can sort citadel by services and also % tax
https://i.imgur.com/a7Akcpm.png |
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Shayla Etherodyne
Perkone Caldari State
47
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Posted - 2016.05.05 22:49:12 -
[21] - Quote
Aaron Honk wrote:Shayla Etherodyne wrote:Aaron Honk wrote:Soon you will be able to buy plex at 0% broker with region wide orders in citadels, I don't think he though about this. But citadels can make region wide orders? I doubt that. It would be very funny is Joe citadel in a secluded system can place orders with 0% broker fees in Mark citadels a guy that hate him and has set his fee at 1105. It works on SiSi
Maybe something has changed, but now you can't make buy orders outside of the "station" when docked in a citadel with a market. You can make them from the citadels without a market., but you have to relay it to a actual station. |
TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
376
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Posted - 2016.05.06 00:22:29 -
[22] - Quote
Aaron Honk wrote:Shayla Etherodyne wrote:Aaron Honk wrote:Soon you will be able to buy plex at 0% broker with region wide orders in citadels, I don't think he though about this. But citadels can make region wide orders? I doubt that. It would be very funny is Joe citadel in a secluded system can place orders with 0% broker fees in Mark citadels a guy that hate him and has set his fee at 1105. It works on SiSi
Can you also setup 0% tax remote sell orders?
"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X
"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron
-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
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Rhivre
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
881
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Posted - 2016.05.06 00:26:12 -
[23] - Quote
TheSmokingHertog wrote:Aaron Honk wrote:Shayla Etherodyne wrote:Aaron Honk wrote:Soon you will be able to buy plex at 0% broker with region wide orders in citadels, I don't think he though about this. But citadels can make region wide orders? I doubt that. It would be very funny is Joe citadel in a secluded system can place orders with 0% broker fees in Mark citadels a guy that hate him and has set his fee at 1105. It works on SiSi Can you also setup 0% tax remote sell orders?
You can set ranged orders from a citadel.
The broker fee (as normal) is set at the issuing station, so, a 1 jump range buy order costs the broker fee from the station you set it from
If I set a remote sell order, it will be based on the location I am setting it at, so, sit in perimeter, set a station order in Jita, it will charge me jita fees
Fluffy Bunny Pic!
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Darkstar01
Republic University Minmatar Republic
33
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Posted - 2016.05.06 15:56:54 -
[24] - Quote
Areen Sassel wrote:Darkstar01 wrote:Also I wonder, after spending 3 - 4 Trillion ISK just to set up the buy orders before the patch, how much ISK is there left to cover the actual PLEX purchases? That's the core of the objection - the article details how to get all your ISK into broker fees leaving none at all to cover the purchases.
Yes, but even if the scheme worked out exactly according to plan (and assuming he still has plenty of ISK left after spending 4 Tril on broker fees), there is no way the profit would be 200 Bil per day, 20 Bil per Hour, or even 10 Bil per Hour (maybe it could be 10 Bil per hour in certain hours when he gets lucky). There is also no way the PLEX traded on April 27 would have been 280,000 units.
He is using his low broker fee to give him pricing advantage. So assuming if he doesn't want any competition, then he would have to price the PLEX at a point where it gives him a profit (pre-patch broker fees), but give other traders no profit (post-patch broker fees).
Assuming everything worked out exactly according to his plan, and the broker fee rose to 3.5% immediately (instead of 2%). His pricing advantage would have been 3.5% (post patch) - 0.43% (pre-patch) = 3.07%.
So this means after the patch, if there is a 3.07% spread between Buy Order and Sell Order, then his profit would be 3.07%, and other trader's profit would be 0%. Correct me if I'm wrong because I don't do Jita station trading, or it's somewhere in between (3.5% minus 0.43%) and (3.5% minus 0.25%).
The average number of PLEX being traded everyday now is what, around 4000 / day recently? This is mainly due to the patch, because it was around 2000-3000 before the patch. People are liquidating to buy Citadel BPO's, Skill Injectors, etc. and I'm pretty sure after all this is done, the quantity traded will settle down a bit.
Some of this quantity is attributed to Sell Orders, some to Buy Orders. For simplicity sake, let's assume 2000 goes to Buy Order, 2000 goes to Sell Order.
Assuming everything worked out according to plan, his 3.07% profit margin on each PLEX priced at 950 million would have been around 29 mil. If he captures 100% of the market where his buy order gets 2000 units, and then flips them to sell 2000 units - he would end up with a profit of around 58 Billion per day (2.5 Billion per hour) - And this is only if he captures 100% of the market, which I don't think is possible.
So in order to do all of this, first he planned to spend 5 Trillion on broker fees (1200 trillion x 0.43%) - because according to him, he got a 5 Trillion loan to do this.....
Then, he has to capture 100% of the PLEX market for 86 full days straight to make it all back.....assuming if the average quantity stays at 4000 units per day.
Now this is also assuming there are no other external factors beyond his control - like the amount of PLEX being generated by CCP from sales, or if a large PLEX holder (larger than his wallet) decides to liquidate. Because once your wallet runs out of money, it only takes 1 PLEX to cancel out a Buy Order of 1000 PLEX.
My math is probably not exact, because I'm not as good at math as he is. But obviously, even if everything worked out according to plan, there is no way the results would be as he claimed.
probag Bear is free to chime in on this |
Rhivre
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
881
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Posted - 2016.05.06 16:24:37 -
[25] - Quote
He has not spent 4T on broker fees, why do people keep thinking this?
Fluffy Bunny Pic!
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Zahara Cody
Imperial Corrections Service.
260
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Posted - 2016.05.06 16:41:40 -
[26] - Quote
How darkstar became a trillionaire is beyond me.
Hating is free, that's why poor people do it the best.
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Darkstar01
Republic University Minmatar Republic
33
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Posted - 2016.05.06 17:13:26 -
[27] - Quote
If he placed 1200 Trillion worth of Buy Order for PLEX like his original plan - then he would have spent ~4 Trillion in broker fees.
Isn't that what I said in my post? If everything went according to plan, and if he placed the buy order for 1200 Trillion worth of PLEX.
Again, there's no such thing as 1200 Trillion.
You are welcome to point out where I am wrong. |
Rhivre
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
881
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Posted - 2016.05.06 17:26:02 -
[28] - Quote
Darkstar01 wrote:If he placed 1200 Trillion worth of Buy Order for PLEX like his original plan - then he would have spent ~4 Trillion in broker fees.
Isn't that what I said in my post? If everything went according to plan, and if he placed the buy order for 1200 Trillion worth of PLEX.
Again, there's no such thing as 1200 Trillion.
You are welcome to point out where I am wrong.
He would have placed it across multiple items in that case, and regarding the 280k units?
Seeing as 5800 of the plex orders on the 27th were him selling to himself , if he wanted to sell himself 280k units, he could have done (although he would have had to get up very early :p )
There is 1200 Trillion, its 1.2 Quadrillion (Handily, there is almost 1 Quadrillion loose in eve at the moment)
http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/70258/1/9b_isk.float.3.png
Fluffy Bunny Pic!
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Dethmourne Silvermane
Unholy Knights of Cthulhu Test Alliance Please Ignore
116
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Posted - 2016.05.06 17:32:08 -
[29] - Quote
Can somebody ELI5 how he actually claims to make money on this? Is it just that he's paying less in broker fees than other people? He makes it sound like he's making money on broker fees, but that's only ever a sink, even if you have an absolute advantage due to having a lower value of broker fees... you're still only making money off what you can flip them for.
Interested Party (TM)
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Darkstar01
Republic University Minmatar Republic
33
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Posted - 2016.05.06 18:02:11 -
[30] - Quote
Rhivre wrote:Darkstar01 wrote:If he placed 1200 Trillion worth of Buy Order for PLEX like his original plan - then he would have spent ~4 Trillion in broker fees.
Isn't that what I said in my post? If everything went according to plan, and if he placed the buy order for 1200 Trillion worth of PLEX.
Again, there's no such thing as 1200 Trillion.
You are welcome to point out where I am wrong. He would have placed it across multiple items in that case, and regarding the 280k units? Seeing as 5800 of the plex orders on the 27th were him selling to himself , if he wanted to sell himself 280k units, he could have done (although he would have had to get up very early :p ) There is 1200 Trillion, its 1.2 Quadrillion (Handily, there is almost 1 Quadrillion loose in eve at the moment) http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/70258/1/9b_isk.float.3.png
OK thanks for explaining, so what he meant by the 280,000 was him selling to himself.
What about all the other concepts I mentioned in my post about the numbers being inflated, how does that make it any less valid? Zahara, comments? |
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