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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2940
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Posted - 2016.05.04 19:44:47 -
[1] - Quote
Some folks say fleet warp should be removed from the game because it is a way for someone else to fly your ship, and thus a tool for AFKers to be lazy and get away with it. Others defend the mechanic, saying that it is necessary to keep a fleet organized when warping without inducing high stress levels in the pilots.
I've got a solution to both!
The proposal: Make an internal AFK mechanic which registers a player as AFK if they haven't made any inputs, keystrokes, or mouse movements within, say, a minute. It doesn't say anything, but makes that person automatically decline fleet warps.
Major impacts: 1.) When FC warps fleet to see who is AFK, the ones who are AFK will not warp, so the ones who are not AFK will be the ones warping, instead of being the ones cancelling their warp. 2.) When mining in a fleet and hostiles show up and commander warps everyone off, anyone who is AFK will not get warped. 3.) It'll be harder to multibox. 4.) Fred will get mad because he was ATK eating a sandwich and it flagged him AFK and he missed the warp.
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
993
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Posted - 2016.05.04 20:11:15 -
[2] - Quote
Is this a very strange... Quote:I hope I can check if someone is afk in the future ...nerf cloaky campers thread?
Also no.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2940
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Posted - 2016.05.04 20:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
You can already check if someone is AFK. This is done in fleets all the time. Also, what does it have to do with nerfing cloaked ships?
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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unidenify
Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium
182
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Posted - 2016.05.04 20:20:12 -
[4] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:Is this a very strange... Quote:I hope I can check if someone is afk in the future ...nerf cloaky campers thread? Also no. more like buff cloaky camper
unless there is cloaky afk fleet |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4845
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Posted - 2016.05.04 20:28:03 -
[5] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Some folks say fleet warp should be removed from the game because it is a way for someone else to fly your ship, and thus a tool for AFKers to be lazy and get away with it. Others defend the mechanic, saying that it is necessary to keep a fleet organized when warping without inducing high stress levels in the pilots.
I've got a solution to both!
The proposal: Make an internal AFK mechanic which registers a player as AFK if they haven't made any inputs, keystrokes, or mouse movements within, say, a minute. It doesn't say anything, but makes that person automatically decline fleet warps.
Major impacts: 1.) When FC warps fleet to see who is AFK, the ones who are AFK will not warp, so the ones who are not AFK will be the ones warping, instead of being the ones cancelling their warp. 2.) When mining in a fleet and hostiles show up and commander warps everyone off, anyone who is AFK will not get warped. 3.) It'll be harder to multibox. 4.) Fred will get mad because he was ATK eating a sandwich and it flagged him AFK and he missed the warp.
No. Such detection programs will almost always have a fairly high rate of false positives.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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sci0gon
Kaira Innovations Superior Eve Engineering
67
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Posted - 2016.05.04 21:18:00 -
[6] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:The proposal: Make an internal AFK mechanic which registers a player as AFK if they haven't made any inputs, keystrokes, or mouse movements within, say, a minute. It doesn't say anything, but makes that person automatically decline fleet warps.
-1
not interested in that as a mechanic in the game.
Do you have any idea how many people have died due to being fleet warped in this game while afk?
or how many supers / titans have also been saved by gang warp to a pos cos they went afk and forgot to leave the gang and cloak? same could be said for killing them too by warping them out of the pos.
only thing i can say, if you run a fleet make sure they are willing to stay around for the period of time you expect to be out with the fleet and if they cant then tell them to GTFO. As for emergencies during fleet play I can only suggest telling them to warp to a safe spot n log after any aggression timer runs out.
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2808
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Posted - 2016.05.04 22:33:20 -
[7] - Quote
sci0gon wrote:Reaver Glitterstim wrote:The proposal: Make an internal AFK mechanic which registers a player as AFK if they haven't made any inputs, keystrokes, or mouse movements within, say, a minute. It doesn't say anything, but makes that person automatically decline fleet warps. -1 not interested in that as a mechanic in the game. Do you have any idea how many people have died due to being fleet warped in this game while afk? or how many supers / titans have also been saved by gang warp to a pos cos they went afk and forgot to leave the gang and cloak? same could be said for killing them too by warping them out of the pos. only thing i can say, if you run a fleet make sure they are willing to stay around for the period of time you expect to be out with the fleet and if they cant then tell them to GTFO. As for emergencies during fleet play I can only suggest telling them to warp to a safe spot n log after any aggression timer runs out.
Your first issue would be counter balanced by people getting killed because they didn't get fleet warp because they were AFK.
If a Titan is AFK, it's nobody else's problem but it's owner. Play the damn game or safe up like everyone else. |
Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
745
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Posted - 2016.05.04 22:59:53 -
[8] - Quote
Raid warning..?? |
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
389
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Posted - 2016.05.04 23:40:25 -
[9] - Quote
Imagine if interdictors were DScan immune...
Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4390
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Posted - 2016.05.05 01:04:12 -
[10] - Quote
If you're AFK, you're not likely to be aligned when the FC fleetwarps.
So, if the guys you're fighting against move fast enough, they can quite possibly catch you and kill you.
Isn't that a good enough incentive not to be AFK?
A system like yours would need a timer a hell of a lot longer than one minute too. I mean, deagressing does not mean ypu're AFK. Nor does a long warp, burning out of a bubble, or waiting for one to go down of it's own accord, or being a logi on an unopposed POS bash, or being DPS on the same...need I go on? |
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2429
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Posted - 2016.05.05 01:28:53 -
[11] - Quote
how does fleet warping fly some one around afk?
for one it would only work in system. Then you have the part where that ship is useless when they get to where ever they are going
Citadel worm hole tax
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Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces
349
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Posted - 2016.05.05 01:40:26 -
[12] - Quote
oh lets add to your idea, after your 1 min afk timer your ship instantly self destructs taking your pod in the explosion with no time to transfer your clone.
"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
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Dungheap
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2016.05.05 02:06:51 -
[13] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote: The proposal: Make an internal AFK mechanic which registers a player as AFK if they haven't made any inputs, keystrokes, or mouse movements within, say, a minute. It doesn't say anything, but makes that person automatically decline fleet warps. .
a switch in the fleet menu to accept / decline fleet warps would be welcomed by anyone who's been fleet warped into hostiles and died while afk . but it seems you're asking ccp to protect those afk don't you think they should all take the warp and diaf ?
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sci0gon
Kaira Innovations Superior Eve Engineering
67
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Posted - 2016.05.05 04:08:57 -
[14] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Your first issue would be counter balanced by people getting killed because they didn't get fleet warp because they were AFK.
If a Titan is AFK, it's nobody else's problem but it's owner. Play the damn game or safe up like everyone else.
I've seen that happen plenty of times in the past due to players suffering from emergency warps due to entering the system and not being able to receive those fleet warps due to already being in warp.
as for the second comment you made, it depends on who you fly with, some groups actually give a damn if they suffer a loss like that if they could help to avoid it regardless of whatever reason the titan or mom pilot had for going afk in the first place.
besides I wouldnt be surprised if some of the people who took part in the B-R cap fight actually took a quick 5-10 mins break cos they were dying to go relieve themselves and couldnt wait any longer during the tidi. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4846
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Posted - 2016.05.05 06:59:34 -
[15] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:sci0gon wrote:Reaver Glitterstim wrote:The proposal: Make an internal AFK mechanic which registers a player as AFK if they haven't made any inputs, keystrokes, or mouse movements within, say, a minute. It doesn't say anything, but makes that person automatically decline fleet warps. -1 not interested in that as a mechanic in the game. Do you have any idea how many people have died due to being fleet warped in this game while afk? or how many supers / titans have also been saved by gang warp to a pos cos they went afk and forgot to leave the gang and cloak? same could be said for killing them too by warping them out of the pos. only thing i can say, if you run a fleet make sure they are willing to stay around for the period of time you expect to be out with the fleet and if they cant then tell them to GTFO. As for emergencies during fleet play I can only suggest telling them to warp to a safe spot n log after any aggression timer runs out. Your first issue would be counter balanced by people getting killed because they didn't get fleet warp because they were AFK. If a Titan is AFK, it's nobody else's problem but it's owner. Play the damn game or safe up like everyone else.
I don't mind the guy AFK getting killed, I do mind the guy who is ATK getting killed because of the horrible "detection algorithm". Detecting people who are AFK is not as simple as noting mouse clicks or whatever. Just because I am not clicking on something does not mean I am AFK.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4846
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Posted - 2016.05.05 07:08:15 -
[16] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:If you're AFK, you're not likely to be aligned when the FC fleetwarps.
So, if the guys you're fighting against move fast enough, they can quite possibly catch you and kill you.
Isn't that a good enough incentive not to be AFK?
A system like yours would need a timer a hell of a lot longer than one minute too. I mean, deagressing does not mean ypu're AFK. Nor does a long warp, burning out of a bubble, or waiting for one to go down of it's own accord, or being a logi on an unopposed POS bash, or being DPS on the same...need I go on?
Yes you do, because these sorts of automatic processes suck donkey balls and apparently most people do not realize it.
Here is the thing, humans are great at spotting patterns. So great we even spot patterns where there are none. Why? Probably evolution. Running away from what you think is a lion in the tall grass does not have many downsides. Ignoring what could be a lion in the tall grass does. So those of us good at spotting patterns and hauling ass tended to live whereas our less paranoid brethren fed the lions. We passed on our genes, they did not.
Computers...they are stupid. Blindingly stupid. Without a human to program them they can do nothing. Maybe that will change someday, but that day is not today, nor tomorrow or any time soon. So any detection algorithm, to not have a **** ton of false positives will likely need a human to look over things. CCP cannot reasonably put a guy out there checking to see if an FC about to issue a fleet warp is going to correctly fleet warp only those who ATK.
The idea is not bad...it is just not able to be implemented in a way that is even remotely reasonable.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Iain Cariaba
2953
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Posted - 2016.05.05 08:13:23 -
[17] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:The idea is not bad... No, actually it is.
Here's a scenario I run into a lot on lowsec PvP roams. We're camping a gate and scouts notice a larger fleet heading our way. The FC fleet warps us to a safe. Many times this happens without warning, and the FC informs us while in warp as to the incoming fleet.
Now, we've been sitting on this gate for a while, 5-10 minutes or more in some cases. If no one's come through, we sit and orbit the gate while the scouts are finding targets. With Reaver's suggestion, most of the fleet would be declared AFK, even though we aren't. This will lead to people to be left behind simply because, like myself, they see no need to randomly click on **** in the UI when there is no reason to click on anything.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2942
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Posted - 2016.05.05 09:15:54 -
[18] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:A system like yours would need a timer a hell of a lot longer than one minute too. Whatever amount of time, that's not the important part of the suggestion.
Teckos Pech wrote:So any detection algorithm, to not have a **** ton of false positives will likely need a human to look over things. CCP cannot reasonably put a guy out there checking to see if an FC about to issue a fleet warp is going to correctly fleet warp only those who ATK.
Iain Cariaba wrote:Now, we've been sitting on this gate for a while, 5-10 minutes or more in some cases. If no one's come through, we sit and orbit the gate while the scouts are finding targets. With Reaver's suggestion, most of the fleet would be declared AFK, even though we aren't. This will lead to people to be left behind simply because, like myself, they see no need to randomly click on **** in the UI when there is no reason to click on anything. I did say mouse movements.
So really, pretty much everyone will get the warp. They're either hitting alt+tab to browse other websites, or are typing in chat, or maybe they're spinning the camera around to look at space. Except Fred. Fred didn't get the warp because he is backed away from his computer and hasn't even bumped the mouse for a while. He is putting a lot more focus on his sandwich than what's happening in fleet chat. In a way, Fred really is AFK, though.
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2942
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Posted - 2016.05.05 09:22:06 -
[19] - Quote
sci0gon wrote:Do you have any idea how many people have died due to being fleet warped in this game while afk?
or how many supers / titans have also been saved by gang warp to a pos cos they went afk and forgot to leave the gang and cloak? same could be said for killing them too by warping them out of the pos. So sometimes people die because they were AFK and got fleetwarped. And sometimes people are saved while AFK because they got fleetwarped.
What's your argument?
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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Iain Cariaba
2953
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Posted - 2016.05.05 10:42:31 -
[20] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:So any detection algorithm, to not have a **** ton of false positives will likely need a human to look over things. CCP cannot reasonably put a guy out there checking to see if an FC about to issue a fleet warp is going to correctly fleet warp only those who ATK. Iain Cariaba wrote:Now, we've been sitting on this gate for a while, 5-10 minutes or more in some cases. If no one's come through, we sit and orbit the gate while the scouts are finding targets. With Reaver's suggestion, most of the fleet would be declared AFK, even though we aren't. This will lead to people to be left behind simply because, like myself, they see no need to randomly click on **** in the UI when there is no reason to click on anything. I did say mouse movements. So really, pretty much everyone will get the warp. They're either hitting alt+tab to browse other websites, or are typing in chat, or maybe they're spinning the camera around to look at space. Except Fred. Fred didn't get the warp because he is backed away from his computer and hasn't even bumped the mouse for a while. He is putting a lot more focus on his sandwich than what's happening in fleet chat. In a way, Fred really is AFK, though. If you're alt-tabbed to another application, the EvE client is not receiving input from anything, and you'll be flagged AFK. If you're typing in chat or spinning the camera, you're obviously at the keyboard, therefore the inclusion in your list of justifications is erroneous.
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:So sometimes people die because they were AFK and got fleetwarped. And sometimes people are saved while AFK because they got fleetwarped.
What's your argument? On one hand, you don't want people being warped in to a fight just to be an easy killmail. I can understand this. However, at the same time you're suggesting a mechanic that will actively punish people who thought they had time to get a sandwich, until something unexpected happened and the fleet needed to move.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4846
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Posted - 2016.05.06 00:47:09 -
[21] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote: I did say mouse movements.
So really, pretty much everyone will get the warp. They're either hitting alt+tab to browse other websites, or are typing in chat, or maybe they're spinning the camera around to look at space. Except Fred. Fred didn't get the warp because he is backed away from his computer and hasn't even bumped the mouse for a while. He is putting a lot more focus on his sandwich than what's happening in fleet chat. In a way, Fred really is AFK, though.
Or hit alt tab or switched to another screen to watch netflix depending on the activity. If it is a POS bash I might click to get my guns/launchers firing again...unless I'm flying amarr and I don't even have to do that.
Finding the truly AFK and letting them sit on the grid and die...fine. Thing is we can't do that without letting lots of other people die too who are not AFK.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4846
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Posted - 2016.05.06 00:50:26 -
[22] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote: On one hand, you don't want people being warped in to a fight just to be an easy killmail. I can understand this. However, at the same time you're suggesting a mechanic that will actively punish people who thought they had time to get a sandwich, until something unexpected happened and the fleet needed to move.
Good point, wanting one's cake and eating it too is silly. This makes the detection problem at least an order of magnitude harder if not several orders of magnitude harder.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2943
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Posted - 2016.05.06 00:52:58 -
[23] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Or hit alt tab or switched to another screen to watch netflix depending on the activity. If it is a POS bash I might click to get my guns/launchers firing again...unless I'm flying amarr and I don't even have to do that.
Finding the truly AFK and letting them sit on the grid and die...fine. Thing is we can't do that without letting lots of other people die too who are not AFK.
So if you're shooting a POS and watching Netflix, you're not AFK? While you may be technically at your keyboard, it seems you're engaged in some activity other than playing EVE--which is what I'm getting at. Why should Netflixers not be penalized for the same sort of activities as people who physically leave their computer? You already have the advantage of being able to return to your game quickly as soon as someone shouts over Mumble that something is about to happen. If you choose to sit there and keep watching your show while the FC is trying to warp everyone out, then you really shouldn't get that fleetwarp. Now if you return immediately and miss the fleetwarp because it only went out once, then that's just bad FCing.
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony The Wraithguard.
290
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Posted - 2016.05.10 16:13:49 -
[24] - Quote
Same opinion here as in any other related thread: I don't care if a guy is AFK or not. Whatever happens to his ship while he's not issueing commands is his problem.
If that means getting killed, so be it. If that means a buddy can warp him out when he says on TS he's about to get his socket closed, cool. If that means someone bounces you from safe to safe to allow a 2 minute bio break in hostile space, great.
Why do people always want to enforce non-AFKness? |
Titti Sabezan
SYNDIC Unlimited
6
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Posted - 2016.05.11 18:54:47 -
[25] - Quote
Agondray wrote:oh lets add to your idea, after your 1 min afk timer your ship instantly self destructs taking your pod in the explosion with no time to transfer your clone.
Excellent idea, but needs one refinement -- that the loot can be marked as belonging to the attacker, not the ship owner. |
Titti Sabezan
SYNDIC Unlimited
6
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Posted - 2016.05.11 18:57:25 -
[26] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: Finding the truly AFK and letting them sit on the grid and die...fine. Thing is we can't do that without letting lots of other people die too who are not AFK.
EvE is harsh -- if you don't like that, I hear "Hello Kitty" (TM) want subscribers. People die every day -- this way AFK-ers die every few minutes. And they get a FREE rookie ship, too.
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2953
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Posted - 2016.05.12 10:41:14 -
[27] - Quote
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:Why do people always want to enforce non-AFKness? I don't see how it's really enforcing it. You can still take breaks within the timer. You can also cloak up for a longer break. Or you could, you know, dock up or get inside a POS shield. I just want to move away from being able to have someone else play for you.
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony The Wraithguard.
294
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Posted - 2016.05.12 11:22:19 -
[28] - Quote
Dude, let me rephrase it.
NO MORE TIMERS. Please. Mechanics ought to be simple -- something is or it is not. I don't need fineprint detailing the exact conditions when a state may change behind my back; I'm not a space lawyer.
Me being in a fleet, flagged to Accept fleet warp is detailed enough. When FC Warps Fleet, the fleet is supposed to warp. Simultaneously - that's what it's there for.
And this, mind you, coming from someone used to small gangs where we warp ourselves. Just don't clutter up perfectly good mechanics for no reason at all, okay? |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
2016
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Posted - 2016.05.12 11:55:11 -
[29] - Quote
Automation programs will just add a reasonable input every 59 seconds to beat the timer.
1 minute would more than likely lead to a lot of senseless slaughter on gates and wh. While senseless slaughter is good clean fun I think that overall folks would be discouraged over time to join fleets. Every FC would need a 1 minute timer running and have to keep prodding his fleet to make inputs. What a hassle. Over time I don't see how this would help the game. It's actually pretty difficult to manually do something (anything) once every minute. It comes up occasionally where I work that this sort of activity must be done. At the end of the day - the guy doing it is exhausted (the IT is pushing a button - nothing physically difficult). I don't think coding exhaustion into the game is a good idea.
The game needs more ways to get folks to want to fight. It doesn't need more ways to leave 'afk' guys hanging. Things like WWB are cool things that draw folks to pvp. Getting ganked on a gate because you had to pee/smoke/talk to your parents on the phone/climax (all but the last most deffo take more than 1 minute) is not fun or engaging game play. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2953
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Posted - 2016.05.12 11:58:09 -
[30] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:1 minute would more than likely lead to a lot of senseless slaughter on gates and wh. While senseless slaughter is good clean fun I think that overall folks would be discouraged over time to join fleets. Every FC would need a 1 minute timer running and have to keep prodding his fleet to make inputs. What a hassle. I didn't say a 1 minute timer. I said a timer of some amount of time, for example 1 minute. Not the same thing. The amount of time is up for discussion. Don't base your support for the proposal on the amount of time I gave in the example because it's not even part of the suggestion.
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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