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Angellyne
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Posted - 2007.02.22 22:32:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Death Kill Edited by: Death Kill on 22/02/2007 22:26:45 Edited by: Death Kill on 22/02/2007 22:26:19
Originally by: Jeretomi
And what exactly have you contributed to this conversation but snide comments?
The fact that things werent better before. You and the OP reminds me of those old dudes on the balcony of the Muppet show.
Ironic. Those two old guys always got the better of Fozzy Bear also.
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Davlin Lotze
Raging Destruction The Imperial Order
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Posted - 2007.02.22 22:33:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Verone
Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 22/02/2007 18:47:59 There is undoubtedly serious problems with the game like logging, macro miners etc etc its important to sift through the whines and work towards fixing the important problems as Jim McGregor said earlier.
To be honest with you Verone I used to think this about Counter-Strike having played it solid for 5-6 years. "Why do they make the game worse with every patch!? It was faaar better back in the day!" Took me a while to establish that in fact it wasn't, it was simpily me getting bored of it.
I've seen this before in many gamers including myself, there isn't always a scapegoat. It's sad to see communities deteriorate but its just the way it is.
I'm not saying this is the answer to your gripe but I would imagine its a part of it.
Oh, I'm far from bored with Eve, I'm just concerned about the blatent abuse of game machanics that happens constantly, and the fact that a complete blind eye is being turned to it.
A bit of an easy answer here: "what it takes to win" now is perceived to be metagaming and what I'll refer to loosely as the "Digital Communist" mindset. If you're not prepared to buckup and forget about your principles, then no amount of empire building and fleet combat prowess will save what you built or what you wish to conquest from being taken from you by those who are willing to throw principles aside.
The above only pertains to large scale stuff. Think BIG BIG STUFF. Like Eve World Wars, etc.
Consider, for example, what LV built and really how easy it was for those who wished to displace them to do exactly that.
And really without the largish scope of battles and intense battles that should have been taking place with such an attempted removal of a territorial power.
It all begs the question of "why build big empires" if you aren't even going to be able to get the opportunity to have a decent and legitimate fight over said empire when the principleless vultures descend and try to take it from you?
And if there is no reason to "build empires" then the whole rationale for Exodus goes out the window. Without Exodus and the population of 0,0, then in Revelations you are really left with nothing to fight over.
Right now, the smart Eve player is out looking for "small peices of Eve" to consume. Smaller alliances with relatively limited intentions and adversaries with roughly the same scope and capabilities as them. Together they can do the tango that was supposed to happen on a larger scale between Eve SuperPowers.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.22 22:35:00 -
[63]
There's always been numpties playing Eve.
It just so happens that there's more of them now because there's more players.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
Agillious
Gallente Inner Circle Helter-Skelter
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Posted - 2007.02.22 22:35:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Death Kill Edited by: Death Kill on 22/02/2007 22:16:50
Originally by: Jarjar
Can you name five alliances who fought over sovereignity for their capital ship yards 3 years ago? I think not.
Oh you mean people started to 'play to win' after cap ships were seeded? Cap ships just reinforced something that was allready there.
Or do you mean 'people didnt act like utter c()nts before'? See history of original Curse alliance.
Whoops, damn. Nice edit there.
Do you enjoy being categorized as a juvenile? Your posts do you no favors in dispelling that. And naturally, given your posts, you'll respond with a trite "i don't give damn what someone on the internet thinks of me"... but then you've also given absolute proof to what the OP, Jarjar, and just about everyone else who disagrees with your viewpoint have been saying.
You offer nothing concrete in the way of refuting someone else's post, you drop a one-liner hoping some drunk out there thinks your funny, and blithely ignore any valid point that the rest of the community is bringing up.
Look, your responses are reiforcing what Verone brought up. Now if that is your "oh-so-clever-mommy-look-at-me-i-can-pretend-to-be-an-anonymous-ass-on-teh-eent0rw3b!" point, then good one for you danny-boy! If not, then please provide some sort of counter argument.
Yes groups of people acted like asses in game before, and they still do. Now, because of alliances, sovreignty, player-owned-stations, and capitol ship yards, people have reasons to do it in localized places that never existed before. The mentality existed in Eve before, there's plenty of evidence to that. What didn't exist before is the player-owned structures, the time investments, and billions of isk spent on keeping those items running.
Before the mentality was kept in check because the anti-social types couldn't act like asses in empire space. Now that semi-permanent structures exist in 0.0 space, people act like chavs and rednecks because there's nothing holding them in check. Reputation loss has zero consequence in Eve.
Again, I'm not saying that this mentality never existed in Eve. What I am saying is that the way Eve was before, it held the negative playstyle in check. Now, with all the shiny new toys, all the expensive shiny new toys, that mentality and its behaviors are magnified. Magnified to a point where people are speaking out against it.
And then we have you that will toss-off an 11 word sentence and then move on.
MORE SHINY, PLEASE!!!
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Jeretomi
Azure Horizon Coalition Of Empires
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Posted - 2007.02.22 22:42:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Death Kill
The fact that things werent better before.
Well that's fine. If that's what you think then you are obviously entitled to air your views. But why did you have to add the snide comments at the end? All you have done is alienate a big portion of community who are interested in what's being discussed in this thread. As a result very few of us are going to take any of your comments with any seriousness and will simply dismiss your views with the contempt they appear to deserve.
Originally by: Death Kill You and the OP reminds me of those old dudes on the balcony of the Muppet show.
If that was some veiled attempt at an insult then I'm afraid it backfired....The Muppets were one of my favourite programs as a kid, and being likened to any of them is more than welcome.
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Galk
Gallente Autumn Tactics All the things she said
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Posted - 2007.02.22 22:43:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker This game is all about giving losses a a consequense, but the fact is most dont handle it too well. So they will do whatever they can do avoid it. When some do it, others follow. Its evolution on its worst. People complain about empire sitters. Get out to low sec now! Theres where the fun is!
Concequences are fine, we had them 4 years ago, we have them now.
It's got absolutely nothing to do with not handling them well.... fact is back in 03/04 people played largely for fun.... not now... i used to lose ships for fun..low/null sec, never botherd me.... when it became all killboards, and greasing the forums with rubbing your face it, surrounded by student humour, it ceased to be fun for me.
As for low sec, im not sure whats fun about it... i played exclusively in low sec for well over 2 years.. i only ever got 2 decent scraps in that time... most of it was sitting there in boredom looking at a blank screen when we got pvp gangs going.
______
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Jeretomi
Azure Horizon Coalition Of Empires
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Posted - 2007.02.22 22:44:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Angellyne
Originally by: Death Kill Edited by: Death Kill on 22/02/2007 22:26:45 Edited by: Death Kill on 22/02/2007 22:26:19 You and the OP reminds me of those old dudes on the balcony of the Muppet show.
Ironic. Those two old guys always got the better of Fozzy Bear also.
lol
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incist
Gallente NALOH
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Posted - 2007.02.22 22:44:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Arcticblue2 Well vote with what you got... I know I did... and to those who flamed my previous post do lock, this is the answer.
"Subscription Status: Active Cancellation Pending Expires: 02.March.2007 Total Charges Made: 26"
See... 2nd of march you no longer will see me in the game, I have voted with my wallet, I wish there where more. I would and will come back once I see my vote is heard.
Then go away already. Stop trying to get sympathy, if you dont want to be here DONT BE HERE. Jesusu F'in Christ, whiner.
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HankMurphy
Minmatar Pelennor Swarm R i s e
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Posted - 2007.02.22 22:45:00 -
[69]
Edited by: HankMurphy on 22/02/2007 22:42:10 whats wrong w/ eve? well...
outside of ppl bandwagoning to bash ppl in game with outrageous accusations mearly based on what flag they fly under (this is decent %age of it, and has been worst in last few weeks than ever) I'd have to say a big part of it has to be that anti-blobbing has not reached us yet.
when your alliance needs to get together hundreds or nearing on a thousand ppl to accomplish something... something is borked. the best times i've had in eve have been small/medium gang fights. fleets are ok too, but within reason! when strategy goes out the window and its a pure #'s game, that has a negative effect on everyones gameplay
------------------------ From here on out i'm pretty sure CAOD forums = Jerry Springer
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Stede Bonnet
Minmatar Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.22 22:49:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Le Pecarosh More and more people are playing to "win EVE", instead of "having fun".
You sir, win this thread.
Eve used to be about fun, people used to fly out and lose ships all the time, who cares, ITS FUN! Now everyone is to stuck up to enjoy EvE and people are waaay to mean to each other on the forums. There is a difference between Smacking in jest and pur full on hatred...
The newer players (those nor around from beta ;p ) take it way to SRSLY! _______________________________________________ Da time be now, Rise up me enslaved brethren. Rise up and fight, Ye darks time is numbered.
SEEEEYYYLLLLAAAAAA! |
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Squelch
Crowd Control
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Posted - 2007.02.22 22:55:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Death Kill Damn! I just lost at the internet
You sure did.
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Xtro 2
Caldari Pre-nerfed Tactics
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Posted - 2007.02.22 23:00:00 -
[72]
I think its simply a case that when fleet/gang sizes increase, the desire to win for some also increases.
I learned this early on, added with fleet lag its when i decided to leave 0.0 and large engagements, and then returned back to the small time life back in empire.
Xtro 2 - Tactically Insane Tradesman. Insanity, or madness, is a semi-permanent, severe mental disorder. |
Death Kill
Caldari direkte
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Posted - 2007.02.22 23:00:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Death Kill on 22/02/2007 22:58:46
Originally by: Agillious
Do you enjoy being categorized as a juvenile?
If it means I loose at this internet duel then no, I wish I was as old as yourself
Quote:
and just about everyone else who disagrees with your viewpoint have been saying.
Yeah whatever, I'm not going to change my opinion on account of what others might belive. You know opinions are like....yeah since you are not a juvenile you should be 'experienced' enough to know that saying.
Quote:
You offer nothing concrete in the way of refuting someone else's post, you drop a one-liner hoping some drunk out there thinks your funny, and blithely ignore any valid point that the rest of the community is bringing up.
I could write a 500 words essay of why the OP is wrong, but considering how wrong he is I wont since threads like these appear every now and then.
Quote:
"oh-so-clever-mommy-look-at-me-i-can-pretend-to-be-an-anonymous-ass-on-teh-eent0rw3b!"
Great arguement there!
Quote:
What didn't exist before is the player-owned structures, the time investments, and billions of isk spent on keeping those items running.
Ok? And this somehow magically turned things for the worse? (no, only if you let it))
Quote: Reputation loss has zero consequence in Eve.
Like it ever did? TankCEO was known for killing n00bs, and so were many other players. You can take your ' oh no my game is ruined by people without morals' attitude and shove it. EVE isnt like other mmo's so stop applying the same rules to it.
Quote:
Again, I'm not saying that this mentality never existed in Eve. What I am saying is that the way Eve was before, it held the negative playstyle in check. Now, with all the shiny new toys, all the expensive shiny new toys, that mentality and its behaviors are magnified. Magnified to a point where people are speaking out against it.
Before we didnt have 34k players during primetime. Before CCP hardly had any ads what so ever if any, when I was young things were so much better, people respected their elders and we didnt even had the internet. All we had was a piece of wood and we were happy about it.
Doesnt it feel great thinking about how much better things were before?
Quote:
And then we have you that will toss-off an 11 word sentence and then move on.
Indeed. Does this mean you win?
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Death Kill
Caldari direkte
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Posted - 2007.02.22 23:01:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Jeretomi
If that was some veiled attempt at an insult then I'm afraid it backfired....The Muppets were one of my favourite programs as a kid, and being likened to any of them is more than welcome.
I cant be bothered to throw insults on the internet, I was merly stating the obvious.
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Jarjar
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.02.22 23:01:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Stede Bonnet
Originally by: Le Pecarosh More and more people are playing to "win EVE", instead of "having fun".
You sir, win this thread.
A bit of irony there huh?
"In Communist China ISK buys YOU!!" - random bio |
Agillious
Gallente Inner Circle Helter-Skelter
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Posted - 2007.02.22 23:24:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Agillious on 22/02/2007 23:21:22
Originally by: Death Kill Edited by: Death Kill on 22/02/2007 22:58:46 If it means I loose at this internet duel then no, I wish I was as old as yourself
Right. Your mentality is up for debate, your age is irrelevant. But since you chose to reply to most of my statements, quoting the bits you understood, the least I could do is write back. You persist with the playground insults and "witticisms". Fun for you, I imagine...
Originally by: Death Kill Yeah whatever, I'm not going to change my opinion on account of what others might belive. You know opinions are like....yeah since you are not a juvenile you should be 'experienced' enough to know that saying.
So, junior, why are you entitled to your opinion and the other posters aren't? You are ridiculed now, because you began by ridiculing. And together, we exemplify what's going on in game, because people like you only seem to respond when people remark on how childish you're acting.
Originally by: Death Kill
I could write a 500 words essay of why the OP is wrong, but considering how wrong he is I wont since threads like these appear every now and then.
That's like saying I could write a 500 word essay on why George W. Bush is good for the world, but I won't. Because too many people whine how bad he is. I think people generally were interested in why someone would think the current state of the game is ok, until you started in with the playground antics. Now, people just dismiss you.
Originally by: Death Kill Great arguement there!
High praise!
Originally by: Death Kill Ok? And this somehow magically turned things for the worse? (no, only if you let it))
Missed the part how I said this magnified the consequences? When someone has invested more resources into an endeavor, they tend to value it more. When a group has similarly invested large resources in an endeavor, it means that much more to the group. Only one person in ASCN ever flew Steve. But when it was lost, the entire alliance felt it. Look at LV and the loss of their capital yards.
Originally by: Death Kill Like it ever did? TankCEO was known for killing n00bs, and so were many other players. You can take your ' oh no my game is ruined by people without morals' attitude and shove it. EVE isnt like other mmo's so stop applying the same rules to it.
I never brought in other MMO morals. I just mentioned that there are no checks, no consequences for unethical or amoral actions. Its a fact. I mention this because it is a contributing factor to the problems that the OP mentioned. Are you saying that EVE is better because there are no consequences?
Originally by: Death Kill Before we didnt have 34k players during primetime. Before CCP hardly had any ads what so ever if any, when I was young things were so much better, people respected their elders and we didnt even had the internet. All we had was a piece of wood and we were happy about it.
Doesnt it feel great thinking about how much better things were before?
So that's your complaint? That EVE has grown? Why does growth = bad attitude? Over-population? What's your point? You had one before you tossed-off on the end there. Might want to clean that up.
Originally by: Death Kill Indeed. Does this mean you win?
Why? Are you trying to win the forums? Have fun with that.
MORE SHINY, PLEASE!!!
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Detavi Kade
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Posted - 2007.02.23 00:02:00 -
[77]
It starts going downhill when people favor the results over the process. Things like killboards, where your success is logged and tracked. It changes from a short-term "let's engage and see what we can do" to a "oh noes our k/d ratio will go down if we engage now" mentality.
To this day, I still don't understand the point of KB. look at the kill/loss mail, see what your enemy equips, and trash the mail.
Sadly enough, I think the sovereignty thing needs a rework as well.
/signed and good post Verone.
It happens in alot of other MMO's too, and while I wasn't around 3 yrs ago, I'm sad to hear that EVE changed for the worse. Wish I had been here sooner to see if what you recall was true.
--sig--
Originally by: oveur
EVE is primarily a PVP game
from the following dev post |
Dessa DesPlains
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Posted - 2007.02.23 01:42:00 -
[78]
IMO, part of the 'win at any cost' mentality is tied to isk sales. When your carrier doesn't cost you time mining or ratting but costs you $139.00 US you don't want to lose it. Add modules, insurance and fighters and you're over $200 bucks. People say "I'll be damned if some *&%$#&$#@ is gonna kill my $200 ship. I'll just logoffski." And off they go. Implants? "I paid good $$$ for these implants and those bastards think they'll pod me? Logoffski ftw!" Just started EVE but have low skills? Spend some $$$ and buy some isk and a character. Then you have to win or log if you don't want to **** away your hard earned RL dollars. You've seen it. Some noob with a 2 year old char and 3 billion isk but cannot work a mining laser without 10 minutes of inane questions. If CCP can keep track if 100's of thousands (or millions) of items, they can track a logoffski. They can track who is firing what at who for 30000 players at a time. They can track isk transfers. If they say they can't, its because they don't want to. Why? Dunno. Ask CCP.
*/ AmateurPsychology People who think they can buy their way through life are generally asshats. And that bleeds over into EVE. $$$ are not the alpha and the omega. AmateurPsychology /*
TMO
BTW, I do not buy isk and I don't have a t2 bpo. I'm not leaving and you can't have my stuff. |
Kay Brack
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.02.23 02:25:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Allantia
Originally by: Verone
It's disheartening, watching Eve degenorate into a game where people need to run borderline exploit tactics to even score a kill, and one begs to ask the question, where has the Eve gone that so many of us remember from long ago, the Eve that we enjoyed and felt a part of before all this crap started to be used to score kills?
I think it's the (almost) inevitable conclusion to EVE, simply because of the way that the game is designed. EVE nutures and supports the griefer/playground-bully type of character, and as such is the natural MMO haven for these types of players. It's just been a matter of time until they migrated to EVE in enough numbers, and as these are the people who tend to be more of the "must win", "win at all costs" and "do whatever you can get away with to win" mindsets, well, you can see for yourself what they're doing to the game.
QFT Iv'e met a bunch of great folks in this game, but like the above poster it think that the saturation level of scammer / griefer / pirate types are starting to feed on each other. I left the game for about 10 months and things seem to be a lot worse uppon returning.
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maximus babbarus
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Mordus Angels
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Posted - 2007.02.23 02:50:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Balklanac Loggin in and loggin off need a better solution than the current crapola.
agreed i didnt spend 2 1/2 months training for a dictor to have whole gangs log off as they hit my bubble. this and other stuff needs fixing.
although i have ot say one thing, we can spend all night typing away into this forum, but i have began to think these "chats" have started to fall on deaf ears ;/ Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Conuion Meow ([email protected]) |
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Tobias Sjodin
Caldari Ore Mongers R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.02.23 02:56:00 -
[81]
I guess it changed, and many of us adapted.
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AKULA UrQuan
Caldari STK Scientific INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.23 03:08:00 -
[82]
Convo/Gang invite spamming has gotten so bad I have to turn on auto-reject when my corp sends me on recon jobs. Nevermind my NPC corp hauler alt gets spamed left, right and center with gang invites if running around empire these days.
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Blind Man
Kemono. Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.23 03:17:00 -
[83]
heres the thread ill link people to when they tell me WoW is ***
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Soporo
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Posted - 2007.02.23 03:19:00 -
[84]
Quote: It's inevitable when you start to reach a bloated playerbase. Reputation based consequence takes a dive.
Reputation in this game is a joke, what with endless alts, charracter sales etc, and its never gonna improve unless a miracle occurs and its ONE charracter per account and a huge nerf to trial accounts.
Not likely to happen, but Verone is spot on about the "win at all cost" metality. Unfortunately the very nature of EVE fosters this sort of behavior, coupled with the lacklustre Dev response about exploits and generally assinine behavior. |
Sundownr
The Clearwater Society Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.02.23 03:20:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin I guess it changed, and many of us gave in, tossed our sense of right/wrong/fairplay out the window, and joined the logoffski/mass-login/meta-gaming bastages that have brought the game to where it is today.
There.. fixed that for ya. ;)
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We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit. -Aristotle |
Odet
Finite Horizon
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Posted - 2007.02.23 03:32:00 -
[86]
What Verone is reffering to is when I was a girl
_______I podded a Dev and all I got was this lousy Implant_______ =This podding has been brought to you by Odet, the only way to fr |
xOm3gAx
Caldari Stain of Mind DAMAGE INC...
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Posted - 2007.02.23 03:33:00 -
[87]
/Signed
100% and whole heartetly. CCP is dropping the ball on this and its something that has been complained about for ages to no avail. This is a bigger imballance then the nanophoon going 12km/s especially when u consider the fact that sure a nanophoon going 12km/s is hard to kill but 50pilots logging in on your ass is hard to survive. Yeah this happened to be by an alliance that won't be named just to keep the thread clean but this is truly bull crap. It can't be that hard to trace and it surely can't be all that hard to fix hell even 20 seconds of black screen when logging into space prior to warp would help albiet more of a temp fix. But something really does need to be done... Eg: cannot log out or quit during combat have it send a query or something to the db for logout with a 10 second timer in which any action causes it to reset how ever with a crash and no sig sent this would obviously log you off... or something to that effect... you can also make the eve process a hidden process so task mgr doesnt show it ;) Simple temp fixes to a much larger issue then any of you dev's / gm's realize.
Been playing ont his accoutn since 04 and alot has changed just as verone has said i miss the old days they were much more fun. ----------- "Mercinaries never die, we just go to hell to regroup." -xOm3gAx '99
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Herculite
Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.02.23 04:37:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Herculite on 23/02/2007 04:35:15 Edited by: Herculite on 23/02/2007 04:34:27 Good post Verone.
My biggest gripe is the use of log on traps and loggoffski's.
I have no idea why these are so hard for the devs to fix.
For log on traps, make it so if you are logged off for X amount of time, your weapons do not go active for a few minutes when you log on from space. If you crashed you are fine, but if you have been gone 7 hours waiting to trap that dread fleet, think again. Sure it might screw you in some circumstances where you crashed at a gate but didn't log back on, but I can live with that.
For loggoffski's thats more simple. Log in a bubble you stay in the bubble until said bubble is gone. Log after jump in before decloak, you can get scrammed and you stay scrammed. Try to log on a new character on that same account it makes you wait until that one is out of game.
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Jollyreaper
Gallente Ace Adventure Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.23 05:23:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Death Kill
Originally by: Agillious
Here's what upsets me about the current climate in Eve. The automatic dismissal of an opposing viewpoint based on the premise that it differs from what one person believes, ergo the juvenile one-liner send-off.
Yes, people did play Eve "to win" before. People still play to win now. Yet people have a problem with it now... why? That's partially what Verone is going after. Yet, you sink to ridiculing his thoughts, and then demeaning people that agree with the original poster.
It comes across as someone who cannot be bothered to look past their own life to see if an opposing viewpoint has any merit.
High Verone, "Death Kill" here is espousing a differing opinon. Mister "Death Kill" seems to believe that Eve is fine the way it is.
Cry me a river Gallente. If you think EVE is more 'people play to win' now than 3 years ago then you are wrong.
What they're saying is lost upon you.
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Celestal
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Posted - 2007.02.23 05:29:00 -
[90]
Originally by: maarud Spamming convo's and gang invites is a exploit, petition it and get the scum banned, the less the better.
Lol guess how BLOB won the last alliance tourney ( when it came down to inties ) ? I guess the multi billion ship prizes more then made up for the costs
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