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WETRAIN
Minmatar
Viper Squad
Mordus Angels
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Posted - 2007.02.23 10:18:00 -
[1]
I remember 1 year + ago, when 2 alliances wanted to go at it...they would either declared war or headed out with forces in the enemy space and such, there where 10-20 man gangs pwnding on eachother, small engagement, the most fun of them all, BUT nowadays , when 2 alliances go at it... is either 10000 BS CAPITALS + TITAN or either or a ganksquad... that roamns with fast ships, thats it .. my question is:
1. Are there anymore engagements like that? Anywhere?
2. To have such a fight do you need to talk to your enemy to bring even numbers ( thinking that they will, rare but yea) ?
3. I`m thinking they are the best fights from all eve, no lag, much fun. Whats your opinion on it.
I`m refering to gangs that are under 25 members with 10 bs max ....
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When People are Ready the Master will come.
- Original by Anihilus -
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Laythun
Black Lance
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.23 10:19:00 -
[2]
Yes all the time, but the is WAR son, not some small engagement between 2 forces, systems need to be locked down, pos need to be assualted etc etc
Black Lance Brother
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WETRAIN
Minmatar
Viper Squad
Mordus Angels
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Posted - 2007.02.23 10:20:00 -
[3]
yea Laythun but besides the pos ******* theres is nothing happening except those ganksquads ... and thats ****** up
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When People are Ready the Master will come.
- Original by Anihilus -
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Major Stormer
Caldari
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.02.23 10:24:00 -
[4]
Hi :)
Small Scale ftw :)
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Gallente Caliente
Anti-BoB Flash Mob
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Posted - 2007.02.23 10:28:00 -
[5]
Small gank squads are what it's all about. Sure we are going for numbers, but not to do 50 man gangs but 10 gangs of 5 pilots in various systems. Small-scale PVP is the best IMHO. I'm not a big fan of the lagfests and getting popped before you've even started to fight. My first ever alliance op was hours and hours of warping around and positioning, a much lagged warp into the battlezone resulting in a pod before my screen even came back, and then a long trip home thinking "WTF, how was that fun now?!?"
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www.nobob.info |
Trefnis
ECP Rogues
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.02.23 10:29:00 -
[6]
For what I know only in empire now :( In 0.0 you will always get ganked if you wont take only fast ships or blob with you.
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Gutsani
Uninvited Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.23 10:33:00 -
[7]
I think thats just a direct result of POS warfare and CAPITALS.
There used to be a time when capitals were "just" introduced, and this still existed, you brought a 40 man gang to shoot down the enemy's POS's with 3 dreads and took over the system. Someone must have gotten the genius idea that you needed a huge blob to kill those capitals, so they did. Having a domino effect.
Now people dont wanne run the risk to lose their expensive capital ships, so they bring huge ammount of numbers and put a ****load of spys in enemy alliances so they know what is comming so they can run away if needed. 
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Stop reading my siggy! |
Saal Iverson
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.02.23 10:35:00 -
[8]
isnt calling gangs who look around for small engagements "gank" squads normally just a way to be slightly derogatory? A spinless way to smack with a cival toungue?
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WETRAIN
Minmatar
Viper Squad
Mordus Angels
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Posted - 2007.02.23 10:43:00 -
[9]
Saal , total respect for your corp, cause your gangs arent gank squads, they are fight squads whatever the number but there are 95% of the ppl who make gank squads , then when they see a equal fight, they run, cause they prefer a load of easy kills with no losses.
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When People are Ready the Master will come.
- Original by Anihilus -
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ZaKma
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.02.23 10:47:00 -
[10]
I miss the good old days, where you could head out into 0.0 solo in a BS and get some nice fights. If you try that now you'll run into a 50 man fleet within like 10 jumps. 
But yeah I love small gang warfare. We've had a few with the Morsus Mihi guys in the latest contract (including some larger ones) and all in all it was way more fun for me than fleet battles.
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d4ve
InterGalactic Corp.
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.02.23 10:50:00 -
[11]
just a few weeks ago when iron came down to querious alone (or.. well, a few pilots from friendly alliances wanted to tag along) i took part in one of the most enjoyable engagements.
FIX were camping the efa-gate in 3-f with a small force and we formed up a gang in badivefi to break up the camp. i cant remember exactly now but i dont think either side had more than 15-20 pilots and it was a healthy mix of a few long range battleships and support.
we jumped into the camp and i dont think anyone really suffered from alot of lag, we waited to uncloak and primary was called beforehand (a blastersetup hyperion). the whole thing was over in a couple of minutes only but during the engagement our snipers were hit by EW while our tacklers speeded up to the hostile snipers. i even think a couple of the FIX battleships had time to warp out and back in once.
i dont know if you could get this kindof fight by just bringing a gang into the home system of an alliance. the immidiate reaction probably is blobbage most often.
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Saal Iverson
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.02.23 10:54:00 -
[12]
it had nowt to do with outbreak, and i arnt all to bothered whats said. Its just a general way people like to comment. small again is around "ah they only want ganks". It happens all the time everywhere. Its jsut a 2 way street. people roaming around in small gangs generally expect that sooner or later they are gonna get blobed to hell. But they shouldnt really moan about it (yeh there gonna be disappointe abut it) but most do know that they cant expect larger corps/alliances to turn away there members for the sake of a fair fight.
people jsut fight with what they had at there disposal at the time.
Doing this will eventually turn into a debate about alliances with less expirences members needing larger numbers to combat a smaller more expeirenced group.
Which inturn moves the goal posts depending on your perspective of a fair fight. Which if you think about it is a very grey subject. As you will be trying to total up everyone involved totalling there ship type combined with total skills each side has..... yea oki its borng and waaay too detailed.
most will roam see what happens, your taking the chances of getting a fight, a gank or blobed every time. sometimes you can kill ablob others you cant. but no-one is going to say "hmmm perhaps we shouldnt kill that guy.... its not a fair fight". You are simply going to run over that guy and move on. nothing more nothing less.
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PSA1SWIPE
Caldari
Dark Entropy
Apocalyptica.
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Posted - 2007.02.23 10:58:00 -
[13]
Yeah wetrain i remember the good old days. of just a few of us out roaming around killing. looking for the good fights. but those days are long gone for the simple fact that no one willing to lose anything any more. they all want high damage fast gank the instant satisfaction. And the stupid poses im sry ccp totally dropped the ball on pos warfare. its pointless boring and laggy as all get out. i miss when ceptors were king battleships could kill frigates and cruisers. there are alot of thing i miss about the old days. so as is i just keep the skill training and just play when i have a bit of spare time cause atm i rather go to work than play eve.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
But a Vagabond is - PSA1SWIPE |
sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente
FATAL REVELATIONS
FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.23 11:01:00 -
[14]
as i said in another thread all those not in bob or ra/goon should keep swapping sides to help out whoever is losing until they both give up and let us fight with numbers that are enjoyable and not lag fests.
either side winning this fight will turn eve into a bob or ra/goon held universe and id rather they both lose before id see that it sounds realy boring.
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Algey
The Littlest Hobos
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Posted - 2007.02.23 11:03:00 -
[15]
 Originally by: Saal Iverson
isnt calling gangs who look around for small engagements "gank" squads normally just a way to be slightly derogatory? A spinless way to smack with a cival toungue?
Depends if ganking is considered good or bad. I like to consider small squads as ninja bin scrounging. Basically you have to get in, kill the ship, loot the bins, and run like hell before his 10,000 mates in battleships roll up and smack you to bits. Sounds like a gank to me  . IAC space is great for this, going in there is like kicking over a load of beehives (sorry goons).
We've had some great fun doing this, and we've lost a few ships when we weren't fast enough, and a few bins when they were fast enough to save them.
It'd be great if we were able to find more gangs of about our size to fight, but what tends to happen is people don't engage until they are sure they can splatter us with minimal losses, and then come out to try to gank us instead  , which makes sence really. We're fighting for fun, they are trying to make it not fun so we go away.
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Saal Iverson
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.02.23 11:06:00 -
[16]
its neither good or bad? like i said no-one is going to say "we shouldnt kill this guy" who just presented himself infront of you. If oyu say its bad the next time i warp infront of your fleet in a vindicator I expect you to not kill me if i'm solo.... deal?:P
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WETRAIN
Minmatar
Viper Squad
Mordus Angels
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Posted - 2007.02.23 11:18:00 -
[17]
i Remember once i was in FE (the alliance) and i made a suicide gang in empire against the 5 i think it was .. dude i think there was like 20 of us .. screaming JIHAAAD, KAMIKAZE, LEEEROY and such at the same time shooting **** in jita .. so much fun ... oh yea people neeed to understand that losing a ship does nothing to you.. NOTHING there is always a place in EVE you can make your ship back and get back fighting in 2 days tops with more ships and have more fun... eh... atlest thats what i think... its amazing how at the start of the game... your so afraid to lose your ship but after 1 year or 2 .. u start to runover the fear... and be more focused on the battle itself.. but some dudes dont get over that fear nevah ... meh
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When People are Ready the Master will come.
- Original by Anihilus -
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Arto Nupponen
Caldari
Rosvosektori
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Posted - 2007.02.23 11:23:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Algey
Basically you have to get in, kill the ship, loot the bins, and run like hell before his 10,000 mates in battleships roll up and smack you to bits. Sounds like a gank to me . IAC space is great for this, going in there is like kicking over a load of beehives (sorry goons).
We've had some great fun doing this, and we've lost a few ships when we weren't fast enough, and a few bins when they were fast enough to save them.
It'd be great if we were able to find more gangs of about our size to fight, but what tends to happen is people don't engage until they are sure they can splatter us with minimal losses, and then come out to try to gank us instead , which makes sence really. We're fighting for fun, they are trying to make it not fun so we go away.
I think this is what pirating is these days? At least people don't seem to like it, even tho we offer people in 0.0 some distractions from all that carebearing
You talk about IAC space but it is the same everywhere. Seems people react to intel faster now and obviously there are a lot more people too. Local residents around the galaxy gather some 20 man camp so fast it's not even fun. Nanoships are about the only way to actually have some fun without returning home thru clone-express.
Larger gangs are fun challenges too if they're not packed with ECM and damps like usual tho 
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.02.23 11:24:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Saal Iverson
its neither good or bad? like i said no-one is going to say "we shouldnt kill this guy" who just presented himself infront of you. If oyu say its bad the next time i warp infront of your fleet in a vindicator I expect you to not kill me if i'm solo.... deal?:P
Yea, deal.
We are in scalding pass at the moment, be sure to faction fit it ;)
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Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Nooey
Omerta Syndicate
Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.02.23 11:31:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Nooey on 23/02/2007 11:29:45
I think we're now seeing something of an "endgame" with this war. Not in terms of goals being achieved (there's still a lot more to come no doubt) but in terms of where things have been heading for a long time as far as game mechanics are concerned. You can almost smell the coming node crashes.
Systems are being taken with numbers alone, barely a shot fired
Titans are being destroyed in any manner possible because frontal Titan assaults is incredibly risky given the immense lag of that scale of engagement
People are dying in a war without ever loading their screen
It's always been the case the large fights are laggy, but we've gotten to the point now where important battles are being won and lost based purely on game mechanics alone - and in situations where it's not just laggy, but where it's downright unplayable. Node crashes deciding important battles, and game mechanics providing hollow victories.
I don't want to start the god-forsaken LV JV1V argument again (please don't do it people, it's all been said before) but it's an excellent example of where things are headed, or rather, where we've finally arrived with the current state of Eve. So is the way the Tigerente died, in it's own way, an example of the sorts of things that are starting to define the wars we're having. We blob systems in defence, in attack, we often dare not risk SuperCapitals due to the likely chance of lag and not players deciding our fate. There are exceptions to these things, but they are rare and notable for being exceptions.
The mechanics of the game, specifically the paralysing lag and even worse, node crashes that accompany what are supposed to be New Eden's most epic fights are making this game actually quite unfun. Something far, far removed from the sort of fun you get from a small skirmish of 10v10.
Genuine question: Do people think that, by and large, people are happy with the way this war is going and what it represents? I'm talking in purely mechanical terms here, not anything else. Has there been a whole bunch of epic fleet battles? Were they all fun?
Most importantly, could the way we all fight, when it comes to thousands against thousands, be run any differently? Should it be?
It's another thing that I'm cautious about bringing up, but I find it somewhat amazing that the community can unite like this in a "holy war against CCP" over recent events, and yet we just sit by and accept the fact that we're being denied precisely what we're after: Epic Fights. I suppose there's a tangible target to vent that frustration on in the latter, whereas we cannot wage a war against Lag. But we all are united, you know, in our hate for lag/crashes/mechanics overiding player skill.
I guess I'm saying, it's not the blobs that make fights unfun for many people, it's everything the game mechanics and the blobs entail:
POS Warfare, which many think is boring, and is a whole can of worms in itself.
Extreme Lag, which necessarily changes tactics and nobody here likes.
Node Crashes, which again, forces tactical changes, affords hollow victories, and downright ruins the game.
Imagine if 1000v1000 was actually possible and plausible, lag-free and smooth as silk... You'd have a lot less people complaining about blob wars, because they'd be playable and tactics would only change based on the scale of conflict, not because of how blobs affect game mechanics.
20v20's and the like certainly have their own unique appeal, it's what I've been doing myself for most of my PvP career. But it's worth saying too, that a large part of what makes those battles so fun, is the fact they can be fought largely without lag, without node crashes, and it is 100% the players and their skill, and 0% the mechanics and the servers that decides the outcomes of those battles.
It's being said more and more these days as this war brings it right to the foregroun, game mechanics is slowly changing the way we play eve, and sadly, how much we enjoy it
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SugarDaddy
Comando Vermelho
Kith of Venal
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Posted - 2007.02.23 11:39:00 -
[21]
Yesterday a Necro put up a thread of 2003, too bad it got locked before I could post something.
It was about Kia and the war they had at that time...it was statin they lost 14 cruisers 
It will only get worse... BS are becoming support already..
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Topaz Skydiver
Minmatar
Narrative Freshfood
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Posted - 2007.02.23 11:42:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Topaz Skydiver on 23/02/2007 12:08:55
People want to win, especially when they are in an important war. That's also understandable.
But if you don't get a good fight it's often 'noobishness'. People need an hour to form a gang and come with twice as many people as needed and wonder, why their enemy is already gone or runs.
This happens usually, when random players form up to defend. Players, who lack confidence, coordination and are afraid to lose ... and then you really most likely will either get no fight, because you are too many or you will really lose, because you have a crappy gang/fleet composition and really act like nubs.
On the other hand there are pvp corps with experienced members, who know what they are doing and they also fight outnumbered and they have fast reaction times and give you good fights.
I remember it from the alliance where I was before. 10 enemies somewhere camping, someone tries to form up a gang with alliance randoms, which takes forever. The composition of ships is crap too and they gather twice as many people as they need.
Meanwhile a single 'hardcore' pvp corp undocks with a lot less people, but the right ships for the job and enough confidence, rushes into the enemy camp, clears it out in a cool fight, while the alliance randoms are still trying to form their super blob for that job.
So I'd say you get the fights you are looking for usually from medium sized experienced more or less pure pvp corps or from experienced pvp'ers of those corps, who team up to have some fun and are not afraid to lose.
I remember a cool fight against another smaller pvp alliance once. Most of us in long-range BS in a gang. Have been camping a bit, got bored and decided to visit the enemies in their home area.
Enemy spotted, FC wanted to jump in and engage short-range, we agreed. His last question was: 'Guys, are you ready to die ?' And I thought 'Oh ****, I lose my tempest, but wtf, even numbers, we might make it and better this fight now than no fight !'
Quake L loaded and we jumped in. Focussed fire went perfect. 1st raven down within seconds etc. Had only one bs loss, our FC died. Was awesome. Not his death of course. 
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hybridundertaker
Amarr
Beagle Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.23 11:49:00 -
[23]
the smaller the gang the better the fun.
i hope factional warfare brings us the days of smaller gangs again. majority of new game features latly thou made blobbing only worse ie large bubbles, with size of a small moon and 2 many hitpoints for a small gang.
EvE +NLINE - T+TALHELLDEATH SUPPORTER |
Nez Sewers
Black Toilet.
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Posted - 2007.02.23 11:56:00 -
[24]
It's very simple, really.
It's too expensive to lose.
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Darker(and more stinking) side of ...
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Marc Zhorr
White Wolves Defence league
The OSS
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Posted - 2007.02.23 11:57:00 -
[25]
Originally by: WETRAIN
...10-20 man gangs pwnding on eachother, small engagement, the most fun of them all.
.. my question is:
1. Are there anymore engagements like that? Anywhere?
I`m refering to gangs that are under 25 members with 10 bs max ....
Syndicate
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Nooey
Omerta Syndicate
Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.02.23 11:58:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Nooey on 23/02/2007 11:55:04
Originally by: SugarDaddy
It will only get worse...
That depends entirely on CCP.
I think this war will show more things than people think it will. I think it will show CCP that they need to set a high priority for reshaping the way large-scale wars are waged. The way, for example, LV lost their Titan is simply unacceptable. Not because people bubbled the gate and camped it to all hell, not because people brought overwhelming numbers, but because doing these quite natural and even necessary things resulted in an absolute fizzler of a fight.
It's extremely unlikely that 1000's v 1000's will ever run well and provide people the same enjoyment they get from smaller engagements. So changes need to come in other ways.
CCP need to think hard (and we in turn, need to provide them with all the ideas we can muster) about how to reshape universal mega-scale conflicts so that they become fun again. Part of this would probably involve a return to smaller-scale engagements, and CCP have already hinted at ways in which they'll be looking into this kind of "reshaping" which is encouraging.
Currently I think a lot of the fun a good majority of people on both sides are having is in enjoying the outcomes of a battle or war, and not so much in how it was arrived at.
That's a sad reality, honestly.
Epic blobs need to not be the ultimate weapon and the inevitable consequence of wars like these. At the same time, the ability of entities to amass insane numbers of people needs to still grant them tactical advantages that they deserve to have if they can muster such incredible numbers. A balance needs to be found that emulates the sort of fun you find so frequently in smaller engagements like Wetrain is talking about.
And yeah, Syndicate is ftw...
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Kerosene
Caldari
Fun Inc
Knights Of Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.23 12:16:00 -
[27]
My corp has nothing but small engagements. Syndicate ftw.
Usually it's 3 or 4 people coming around in various ships for a bit of pvp and my corp will rise to whatever challenge. Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose. But it's all fun tbh.
Occasionally though some muppets will try roll a 20 man gang into our little constellation. Their loss though because my pilots will generally only fight battles they have a chance of winning so avoid the large blob mentality.
Coming from a large alliance I definately say 'Take your POS's, capital ships, titans, blobs, gate camps and node deaths and cram 'em where the sun don't shine.'. It's fun where I am.
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I really don't need BoB propaganda here any more. Let's embrace yiffy. |
Delthus
Species 5618
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.23 12:26:00 -
[28]
ya i remember those times but if i remember correctly wetrain u only had drunken romainian ops which i had to follow ur fc commands slurred as they were
Your signature is too large. Please see the Forum Rules for the limits - Serathu (mods@ccpgames.com)
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Karunel
Princeps Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.23 12:32:00 -
[29]
Quote:
Syndicate
Yarr indeed. Looking forward to more GF's btw. 
Originally by: elbenito
The problem with large fleet engagements is that the hamsters stop to watch.
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Snodgey2004
Mega Modal M0nkeys
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Posted - 2007.02.23 12:37:00 -
[30]
Actually anyone in FIX that was present during the BoB war should remember what it's like to have fun fights , sometimes they were big fights sometimes not - but more often than not they'd come down towards 9CG just to fight and nothing else .
Can honestly say that that time was the most enjoyable I had in FIX , no need to worry about station taking and stuff like that just pure fighting and alot of the time hardly any lag , though it was a while ago so you have to remember not as many people playing then . I think at them times one of the BoB gang leaders must have said " are we wasting our time today " to a FIX guy .
I don't think you get that now with modern alliances because of these boards , too much smack and " hate " between alot of people it seems which is a shame .
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