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Tabitha Deschantes
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2016.05.16 00:15:57 -
[1] - Quote
This is a rethinking of how the skill levels should be reworked to give newer players a faster approach to the game, while not breaking any current game mechanic, neither ruining the older players experience.
Everyone already knows how the actual skill levels work, so i will pass over it and go directly to the proposal:
Changing the number of skill levels from 5 to 10 without changing the max amount of sp in the skill and obviously halving all the level related bonuses on skills and ships.
First approach: Half Way skill levels
Using the same formula from the actual method we get the levels as:
GÇó level 1 - 250 GÇó level 2 - 1415 GÇó level 3 - 8000 GÇó level 4 - 45255 GÇó level 5 - 256000
and applying the exact half of sp needed for the next skill level, making the even levels to be like the old levels (actual level * 2) and the odd ones 1/2 sp needed ((level+1 - level-1)/2+level-1), we will get:
GÇó level 1 - 125 GÇó level 2 - 250 GÇó level 3 - 833 GÇó level 4 - 1415 GÇó level 5 - 4708 GÇó level 6 - 8000 GÇó level 7 - 26628 GÇó level 8 - 45255 GÇó level 9 - 150628 GÇó level 10 - 256000
The cumulative time training the same skill in the actual and the proposed method doesn't change and the time spent training from the level 8 to level 9 is the exact half of the actual method from level 4 to level 5.
eg:
Rank 1 skill for a new player (primary 20 secondary 20 so 1800 sp/hr)
Training from lvl 4 to 5 in the actual method will take 4d 21h 4m 49s
Training from lvl 8 to 9 in the half way method will take 2d 10h 32m 26s
Second approach: Skill Points redistribution with 125 sp entry level
Instead of adding Half Way levels we can redistribute the skill points according with a new formula: Rank * 125 * (2*(4^1/9))^Level-1
GÇó level 1 - 125 GÇó level 2 - 292 GÇó level 3 - 681 GÇó level 4 - 1588 GÇó level 5 - 3704 GÇó level 6 - 8641 GÇó level 7 - 20159 GÇó level 8 - 47032 GÇó level 9 - 109728 GÇó level 10 - 256000
The cumulative training time is still the same but it's faster to train up to level nine.
eg:
Rank 1 skill for a new player (primary 20 secondary 20 so 1800 sp/hr)
Training from lvl 8 to 9 in the Half Way method will take 2d 10h 32m 26s Cumulative time from lvl 1 to 9 will take 3d 11h 40m 56s
Training from lvl 8 to 9 in the Redistributed method will take 1d 10h 49m 52s Cumulative time from lvl 1 to 9 will take 2d 12h 57m 36s
Third approach: Skill Points Redistribution with 250 sp entry level
Like the precedent approach but starting from 250 sp like actual method with the formula: Rank * 250 * (2*(2^1/9))^Level-1
GÇó level 1 - 250 GÇó level 2 - 541 GÇó level 3 - 1167 GÇó level 4 - 2520 GÇó level 5 - 5444 GÇó level 6 - 11758 GÇó level 7 - 25399 GÇó level 8 - 54864 GÇó level 9 - 118512 GÇó level 10 - 256000
Starting from 250 sp it's a little bit slower but faster than the Half Way Method.
eg:
Rank 1 skill for a new player (primary 20 secondary 20 so 1800 sp/hr)
Training from lvl 8 to 9 in the Half Way method will take 2d 10h 32m 26s Cumulative time from lvl 1 to 9 will take 3d 11h 40m 56s
Training from lvl 8 to 9 in the Redistributed with 125sp entry method will take 1d 10h 49m 52s Cumulative time from lvl 1 to 9 will take 2d 12h 57m 36s
Training from lvl 8 to 9 in the Redistributed with 250sp entry method will take 1d 11h 21m 35s Cumulative time from lvl 1 to 9 will take 2d 17h 50m 24s
The differences between the 125 sp entry and the 250 sp entry become more consistent with higher ranks.
In all the proposed methods and the actual one the cumulative time to max the skill will be the same of 5d 22h 13m 20s.
Further enhancements:
All the skill entry levels can be changed to (actual level *2 -1) so level 9 will be the max needed skill to progress further. Level 10 would be the specialization level (although it gives a little bonus, but we already have lvl 5's that give only 2%). For non progression skills (like Jury Rigging) the entry levels, aside the first, can be changed to (actual level * 2). Although every skill should be balanced on a case by case basis, favouring a lot the progression on frigs/dessies, less on cruisers/bcs and maybe staying as it is on battleships/capitals.
Taking as example the mining skill:
In the actual method a new pilot trains Mining to level 4. It takes him 1d 1h 8m 30s and gets a 20% bonus. To get a better bonus he should train it to 5 and get a 25% but it will take 4d 21h 4m 49s more. It is a lot of time, pacing down the progression of the character.
In the Half Way method the same new pilot trains Mining to level 8. It still takes him 1d 1h 8m 30s and gets the same 20% bonus. But the better bonus (and the next progression line) it's only 2d 10h 32m 23s away. He gets a 22,5% bonus and access to Modulated Strip Miner IIs. Subsequently he can train the remaining 2d 10h 32m 23s to get the full 25% bonus.
In the Redistributed method training mining to level 8 will take 1d 3h 7m 42s but the 9th level is only 1d 10h 49m 52s away. And finally the level 10 will take 3d 9h 15m 43s.
Conclusions:
This way a newer pilot can access skills, modules and ships faster that in the actual method and be and feel useful shortening the skill time. And finally, when the pilot is established and confident can gain the last bit of bonus to get an edge over it's adversaries.
Implementation:
I don't know how much the bonuses are hardcoded into the game, and that can be so much work to change. But, if as I think, all the data is stored in the main database and character database, a couple of iterating scripts should do the magic.
Maybe a bit of work for art department, changing stuff on the character sheet and other stuff to reflect visually the changes. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2538
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Posted - 2016.05.16 00:19:50 -
[2] - Quote
Feeding instant gratification is not needed
Not to mention the first four levels of any skill train fast enough as is and I dint need more clutter in my queue
Citadel worm hole tax
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3257
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Posted - 2016.05.16 00:37:08 -
[3] - Quote
You realise this is an overhaul of the entire skill system and every bit of text and programming associated with it. Masteries, ship traits, the skills themselves, isis, 3rd party softwares etc etc just because of instant gratification?
Not necessary. If the entry barrier for tech 2 stuff needs to be lower we can do it without all this, and if we want to make skills more incremental we can split them up (see targeting and advanced targeting).
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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elitatwo
Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1214
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Posted - 2016.05.16 01:10:51 -
[4] - Quote
I hate to break it to you but we kinda had to wait 7 days not 4 like you, now before the angry blobb or people with forks and knives murder you, you should start running.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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Trespasser
S0utherN Comfort Circle-Of-Two
56
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Posted - 2016.05.16 01:12:26 -
[5] - Quote
Not needed, You train the first few 4 levels of most skills within a day for newer players. They got rid of learning skills and just gave more attributes. New players i think can still get the cerebral accelerators, they can also buy skill injectors and soon ccp is going to be giving away 10,000 free SP away each day for the first NPC rat kill you get.
new players have a lot of ways to get SP in this game pretty fast and thats not including +1/2/3/4/5 implants |
Iain Cariaba
2999
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Posted - 2016.05.16 02:15:34 -
[6] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Feeding instant gratification is not needed Not empty quoting.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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Tabitha Deschantes
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2016.05.16 08:16:21 -
[7] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Feeding instant gratification is not needed
Not to mention the first four levels of any skill train fast enough as is and I dint need more clutter in my queue
It's not about "Instant Gratification" but faster progression on the early days of the game. As I said in the OP the modification should be aimed towards the smaller ships and core skills.
You say that the first four levels train fast enough, and you're right, but sometimes isn't enough and you have to train lvl 5 to progress further, effectively pacing down the percieved speed of the game.
Daichi Yamato wrote:You realise this is an overhaul of the entire skill system and every bit of text and programming associated with it. Masteries, ship traits, the skills themselves, isis, 3rd party softwares etc etc just because of instant gratification?
As I said, i don't know how much the skill levels are hardcoded into the core engine of the game, but if the data is stored in the database and subsequeltely everything is relation-dependent, shouldn't be impossible to apply some modifications on it and the rest should adapt automatically.
Much like when they change the dependencies of a skill, or the requirements, or the attributes of an item.
Daichi Yamato wrote:Not necessary. If the entry barrier for tech 2 stuff needs to be lower we can do it without all this, and if we want to make skills more incremental we can split them up (see targeting and advanced targeting).
But lowering to lvl 4 the entry barrier for tech 2 in most cases is too fast, hence the idea of adding more levels. And no, no more splitted skills, i think the game need less skills not more.
Daichi Yamato wrote:Edit-The other thing that can be done, taking your mining example, is to increase all mining laser yields by 10% and then half the skill amount to 2.5 or 3%. That would be much less work and is kinda what happened recently with drone interfacing.
This is an intelligent approach, but the problem of progression still remains if i still need lvl 5 to progress further.
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Tabitha Deschantes
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2016.05.16 08:17:27 -
[8] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:I hate to break it to you but we kinda had to wait 7 days not 4 like you, now before the angry blobb or people with forks and knives murder you, you should start running.
Sorry, i don't understand what you meant.
Trespasser wrote:Not needed, You train the first few 4 levels of most skills within a day for newer players. They got rid of learning skills and just gave more attributes. New players i think can still get the cerebral accelerators, they can also buy skill injectors and soon ccp is going to be giving away 10,000 free SP away each day for the first NPC rat kill you get.
new players have a lot of ways to get SP in this game pretty fast and thats not including +1/2/3/4/5 implants
Ok, they got rid of Learning skills and so what? if before was worse than today doesn't mean that there is no room for improvement.
I don't know if there still are cerebral accelerators, but they lasted only 14days iirc.
Skill injectors aren't a solution, they cost too much and they give a real "Instant Gratification" With today prices you need 2 Plex to get 3 Injectors so 1,5M sp, you need 35Gé¼ on top of your subcription to get a bunch of skills insta trained, but this isn't what i'm proposing here.
Dailies aren't implemented yet and maybe they never will.
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Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
2577
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Posted - 2016.05.16 08:50:39 -
[9] - Quote
Tabitha Deschantes wrote:You say that the first four levels train fast enough, and you're right, but sometimes isn't enough and you have to train lvl 5 to progress further, effectively pacing down the percieved speed of the game.
Honestly, this is a good thing. The pace of the game isn't fast. We shouldn't pretend otherwise.
Tabitha Deschantes wrote:And no, no more splitted skills, i think the game need less skills not more.
I think you're horribly, horribly wrong. But this does shed some light on the rest of the proposal.
Daichi Yamato wrote:Edit-The other thing that can be done, taking your mining example, is to increase all mining laser yields by 10% and then half the skill amount to 2.5 or 3%. That would be much less work and is kinda what happened recently with drone interfacing.
I've never much liked this approach either. No, skills shouldn't be required to be effective, but they should also be, you know, noticeable enough to make a difference. Dropping the benefits down too far makes them simply min/max games instead of actual progression. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
2035
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Posted - 2016.05.16 10:57:10 -
[10] - Quote
I think CCP needs to bring back skewed and fixed attributes, learning skills, remove injectors and charge 120 mil for +3 implants for 1 month every 2 years so folks understand how good they have it.
Enough is enough w/ the skill crap. Let the poor devs work on actual gameplay stuff. If you're not training fast enough - BUY INJECTORS. I think they are bad for the game, but fookinsheesh enough already.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2547
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Posted - 2016.05.16 11:03:24 -
[11] - Quote
your right a part of the game that affects everyone is not worth dev time they should get back to killing capital ballance
Citadel worm hole tax
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
2036
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Posted - 2016.05.16 12:48:37 -
[12] - Quote
I'm just saying that in the past few years CCP has done A LOT of work on making skilling up a character faster/better/easier or whatever. It's a good plateau to just rest for a bit.
I recommend everyone fill your ques up for 50+ days and we'll come back and revisit it in a month or so.
And we kind of have an adage where I work, doubling the complexity of something rarely makes it better. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3257
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Posted - 2016.05.16 13:39:09 -
[13] - Quote
Zhilia Mann wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:Edit-The other thing that can be done, taking your mining example, is to increase all mining laser yields by 10% and then half the skill amount to 2.5 or 3%. That would be much less work and is kinda what happened recently with drone interfacing. I've never much liked this approach either. No, skills shouldn't be required to be effective, but they should also be, you know, noticeable enough to make a difference. Dropping the benefits down too far makes them simply min/max games instead of actual progression.
I agree. Lets get one thing straight, I don't think every skill in the game needs to be marginalised. The op just doesn't like waiting.
But if CCP did decide that they did want split a skill up, there are ways it can be done without overhauling the entire thing.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
837
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Posted - 2016.05.16 13:50:29 -
[14] - Quote
No - because of the amount of dev time needed to implement this, what with all the skills, ships module etc that would have to be modified.
There many other reasons why this would be bad, but in the end analysis this is the only one that really matters. CCP is not done with the re-balance of all the ships and modules we have an you want them to have to go back and start the whole process all over? |
Tabyll Altol
Breaking.Bad Circle-Of-Two
163
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Posted - 2016.05.16 23:47:20 -
[15] - Quote
Came to read about removing learning implants.
Leaving disappointed about a textwall to make skilling more complicated.
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