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TheDamned
Zempafy Industries
63
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Posted - 2016.05.17 20:56:24 -
[1] - Quote
Its a sad day for us lowly industry types as I watched our Astrahus shields be blown through in about 45 minutes. 2 missile launchers, ECM, painter and weapon disruptor did absolutely nothing in defense of the not to mention the fighter dron squadrons that posed no threat as they were zerged by the aggressing fleets drones.
It was so bad it was comical honestly as the Citadel was completely useless in defending itself.
I'm not complaining, just letting everyone know that is considering setting one of these up that, its pointless unless you have a huge alliance to defend it. Otherwise, it wont even be able to blow up a single ship of the fleet has more than 2 Logis.
I expected this to happen when we put the thing up but I thought I would at least have fun blowing up a few ships as the Citadel was being worked over. Nope. hah!
Tomorrow I will get to watch our armor be dismantled. :(
You also can't changed fittings at all after the first phase either so no strategy changes. Just sit and watch it go boom!
I will say, the guys that Wardecced us know what they are doing. |
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1533
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Posted - 2016.05.17 20:58:57 -
[2] - Quote
It was an Astrahus, what were you expecting?
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Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
193
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Posted - 2016.05.17 21:00:23 -
[3] - Quote
I don't think it is intended to be defended alone against a group of organized people.
Working as intended. Go find some friends, then put up a new citadel. |
TheDamned
Zempafy Industries
63
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Posted - 2016.05.17 21:01:27 -
[4] - Quote
I expected a little more of a fight. It's a CITADEL! I should at least be able to blow up a ship or two somehow.
Without AOE dmg to pop the drones or all of the ships sitting at 0m, it's just a zerg magnet.
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Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
193
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Posted - 2016.05.17 21:07:39 -
[5] - Quote
TheDamned wrote:I expected a little more of a fight. It's a CITADEL! Just because it is bigger and more expensive, doesn't mean it is necessarily "better".
It's a fallacy many people believe to be true, but it will only generate content for people who knows better.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
15794
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Posted - 2016.05.17 21:17:43 -
[6] - Quote
have ye considered defending the thing? seems to me to convey a fairly hefty home field advantage , even to a smaller force.
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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TheDamned
Zempafy Industries
63
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Posted - 2016.05.17 21:20:17 -
[7] - Quote
Our corp isn't really big enough to defend a well structured fleet. Lets be honest. We recruit miners to build things to sell. PVP pilots like FW/Low/Null Sec corps.
It's ok, we will lose this one but like everything else, Im learning a lot about how much less and less I like High Sec.
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Cien Banchiere
Extrinsic Arcadia Distribution
59
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Posted - 2016.05.17 21:25:29 -
[8] - Quote
You basically put up a fancy large POS. Yes, if you really want to utilize items like that and learn to work with others in defense of it you need to go to low or 0.0. Also, there is no rule stating Indy corps can't recruit combat pilots. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
15794
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Posted - 2016.05.17 21:27:30 -
[9] - Quote
TheDamned wrote:Our corp isn't really big enough to defend a well structured fleet. Lets be honest. We recruit miners to build things to sell. PVP pilots like FW/Low/Null Sec corps.
It's ok, we will lose this one but like everything else, Im learning a lot about how much less and less I like High Sec.
have ye tried.
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Emiko P'eng
138
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Posted - 2016.05.17 21:31:11 -
[10] - Quote
Humm!
Well you have 2 more stages to go before you lose your Citadel.
Armour & Structure.
So as the Citadels are supposed to be trade hubs.
Now is the time to go and ask those who have rented offices in your Citadel to help by becoming your ally to help in the fight!
If you have a Jump Clone Facility and rent space, ask the renters for help!
If you have a Ore Processor, ask the corps that use it for help!
Etc...
If that is not enough hire mercenaries!
If you haven't got enough money to hire mercenaries, be creative offer them free access to Jump clones, Reprocessing or Offices!
You still have nearly a week to think of something. |
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TheDamned
Zempafy Industries
63
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Posted - 2016.05.17 21:43:10 -
[11] - Quote
Any corp that offered assistance in the defense of the Citadel would be granted Free Reprocessing, Clone Bay use and office space.
The citadel has only been up for 2 days so not enough time to really get anything else going with it.
If you want an office in Stegette, jump clones, etc. This could be a good way.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4858
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Posted - 2016.05.17 21:51:13 -
[12] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:TheDamned wrote:I expected a little more of a fight. It's a CITADEL! Just because it is bigger and more expensive, doesn't mean it is necessarily "better". It's a fallacy many people believe to be true, but it will only generate content for people who knows better.
He did not say "better" just that he thought it might take out a ship or two along with it. But hey, keep on beating up that straw man and lecturing us on fallacies.
To the OP,
Thing is when guys in ships bring a solid fleet comp you'll need to overcome any logistics the attackers have. That is going to be a hard thing to do when the attackers already know your damage output, they'll just be sure to bring enough logi.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
4858
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Posted - 2016.05.17 21:52:55 -
[13] - Quote
TheDamned wrote:Our corp isn't really big enough to defend a well structured fleet. Lets be honest. We recruit miners to build things to sell. PVP pilots like FW/Low/Null Sec corps.
It's ok, we will lose this one but like everything else, Im learning a lot about how much less and less I like High Sec.
That's the spirit! Go to LS or NS, or even w-space, make new friends, kill some of them...get killed by them, have some laughs, then put up another citadel when you can get your friends to come help you.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
15794
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Posted - 2016.05.17 21:54:32 -
[14] - Quote
the sort of lads you will want to be poking with this are over in "crime & punishment"
Better the Devil you know.
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
4266
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Posted - 2016.05.17 21:58:42 -
[15] - Quote
The fighters are bugged and even if that wasn't the case the citadel itself is not a substitute for a defense fleet.
Given CCPs notorious history of putting out intensely bugged content you should have done your research before putting one up.
Secondly welcome to EVE, you don't get to have a thing if you can't protect that thing and somebody else really wants to deprive you of it. |
Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1211
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Posted - 2016.05.17 22:02:23 -
[16] - Quote
Looks like OP learned a cheap lesson that bigger is not better. At least he wasn't in a titan saying "why isn't my titan a ROFLSOLOPWNMOBILE" while getting tackled in aridia by the locals.
Case in point CCP's Citadel Trailer quote: "Build Your Dreams, Wreck their Dreams". Looks like OP built their dreams only for it to be wrecked.
Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
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Memphis Baas
1548
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Posted - 2016.05.17 22:11:16 -
[17] - Quote
Sorry for your loss.
It's unfortunate but you could have learned this lesson a week or more ago, if you'd read reddit/r/eve. Because Citadels were announced on that forum (and to a lesser extent here) with forum posts along the lines of "we blew up the first citadel!" "first in highsec!" "fist medium blown up" "first citadel destroyed for our group!" "yea we got one too".
Citadels are:
- way too expensive for what they do (especially if you're thinking of replacing POSes). - way easier to kill than properly set up POSes. - a PVP magnet.
The math (cost vs. their stats) has shown this since before day 1.
The game is very healthy because so much value is getting blown up, and CCP loves it. The release trailer shows exactly what they wanted to accomplish with the Citadels release (more things getting blown up), so it's definitely NOT false advertising. |
Memphis Baas
1548
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Posted - 2016.05.17 22:14:05 -
[18] - Quote
Also, congratulations on volunteering to check CCP's "your stuff is safe" mechanic when your citadel explodes. Make sure to file bug reports and take screenshots. |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
5228
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Posted - 2016.05.17 22:14:27 -
[19] - Quote
TheDamned wrote:Its a sad day for us lowly industry types as I watched our Astrahus shields be blown through in about 45 minutes. 2 missile launchers, ECM, painter and weapon disruptor did absolutely nothing in defense of the not to mention the fighter dron squadrons that posed no threat as they were zerged by the aggressing fleets drones.
It was so bad it was comical honestly as the Citadel was completely useless in defending itself.
I'm not complaining, just letting everyone know that is considering setting one of these up that, its pointless unless you have a huge alliance to defend it. Otherwise, it wont even be able to blow up a single ship of the fleet has more than 2 Logis.
I expected this to happen when we put the thing up but I thought I would at least have fun blowing up a few ships as the Citadel was being worked over. Nope. hah!
Tomorrow I will get to watch our armor be dismantled. :(
You also can't changed fittings at all after the first phase either so no strategy changes. Just sit and watch it go boom!
I will say, the guys that Wardecced us know what they are doing.
It's working as intended. And now wait until you MUST set up a industrial structure to replace your POS... a industrial structure which obviously won't have the defensive capabilities(?) of a "**C*I*T*A*D*E*L**" thus will be far easier to burn down for a juicy KM.
There's no need to wait to the discussion on the new structures, they are industrial facilties, thus they can't defend themselves any better than military(?) Citadels. You couldn't defend your citadel, then your industrial facilities will be even more doomed: better target than POS, and a softer target too. You should join a large group, hire one (unless your attackers are blued to them) or just stop paying a susbcription for this nonsense. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
44714
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Posted - 2016.05.17 22:19:31 -
[20] - Quote
Like early adopters of any new technology:
- pay a premium price - deal with the bugs of 1st generation items
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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TheDamned
Zempafy Industries
63
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Posted - 2016.05.17 22:21:19 -
[21] - Quote
We actually did a lot of research on Citadels for weeks but its hard to catch every forum thread, reddit post, NSA stored data recording of EVE conversations etc. lol I try but there is only so much I can do at a time.
In any case, it will be fun to watch it explode if nobody takes us up on offer to help defend it. We thought it would be a nice way to help miners in the area and potentially provide a hoe away from home for some but it's all good. Just learned a hard lesson about what not to do. |
Roenok Baalnorn
Sadistically Sinister
4
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Posted - 2016.05.17 22:46:31 -
[22] - Quote
I knew this would be what happen with citadels when they said " we expect you to at least to have to commit 30 minutes to blowing one up" Wow a whole 30 minutes? They are more expensive and squishier than a POS and unable to defend themselves against even a small fleet.
I say they need their offensive and defensive stats doubled and keep the dps limits the same and i say that as someone that is more likely to tear one down than to put one up. I think it would generate more pvp content( give the defenders more time to organize defensive counter fleets rather than" jump in anything that has a gun and fleet up!" ) and it wouldnt be so squishy for indy/mining corps.
That said, high sec really is a terrible place to do anything but shop. So if this pushes people out of the kiddie pool and into the big boy pool im all for it. The biggest problem for indy people is they try to play this game as solo as possible. And its not meant to be played that way. They do well to form corps and most shy away from forming or joining a pvp alliance. Maybe this will get them to play eve the way its meant to be, as part of a team working together to make stuff and defend stuff. Rather than " OMG got wardecced, they are blowing our stuff up!" ... Welcome to eve, you will pvp( if you want to keep your stuff), so you might as well learn how. |
TheDamned
Zempafy Industries
63
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Posted - 2016.05.17 22:50:15 -
[23] - Quote
Roenok Baalnorn wrote: I knew this would be what happen with citadels when they said " we expect you to at least to have to commit 30 minutes to blowing one up" Wow a whole 30 minutes? They are more expensive and squishier than a POS and unable to defend themselves against even a small fleet.
I say they need their offensive and defensive stats doubled and keep the dps limits the same and i say that as someone that is more likely to tear one down than to put one up. I think it would generate more pvp content( give the defenders more time to organize defensive counter fleets rather than" jump in anything that has a gun and fleet up!" ) and it wouldnt be so squishy for indy/mining corps.
That said, high sec really is a terrible place to do anything but shop. So if this pushes people out of the kiddie pool and into the big boy pool im all for it. The biggest problem for indy people is they try to play this game as solo as possible. And its not meant to be played that way. They do well to form corps and most shy away from forming or joining a pvp alliance. Maybe this will get them to play eve the way its meant to be, as part of a team working together to make stuff and defend stuff. Rather than " OMG got wardecced, they are blowing our stuff up!" ... Welcome to eve, you will pvp( if you want to keep your stuff), so you might as well learn how.
You're right, I have been trying to build a corp to help new pilots learn various facets of the game while struggling against the glass ceiling of High Sec. Not being able to drop Manticore bombs on the fleet attacking us due to High Sec restrictions really made this painful. I wouldn't do it again thats for sure.
I honestly feel a new corp would benefit more by establishing themselves in a WH or Low/Null than trying to do anything outside of mining (and even that can be harry) in High Sec.
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Pandora Carrollon
Kingsman Tailors
266
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Posted - 2016.05.17 23:11:18 -
[24] - Quote
Well, you're lucky it survived it's 15 minute setup window without a defensive fleet.
The other posters are correct, you need mobile units to defend a Citadel, no matter the size.
AOE will not save you, it will get Concord on your tush. All it takes is for one neutral to be hit and you have instant Concord. This is why you should put a neutral ALT or two in the middle of the attacking fleet, they mess up, Concord is doing your dirty work.
You should have a ton of long range ships doing mobile assaults on the enemy logistics ships. They would have to pull forces off the Citadel to go chase down your artillery, thus giving your Citadel more local punch and taking less damage. You should have dozens of warp to points where your ships can bounce around to and unleash heck from. It goes on and on.
YOU have to be the driver of the scenario. You have your space dock right there, (At least from the stuff I've seen you can dock and undock while the Citadel is under attack) they can only bring what they can bring. You see what their force makeup is and tailor yours to take advantage of their weaknesses.
You should have access to tons of drone ships to engage their drones. Your drone ships can be resupplied with drones over and over again while they have to cart more in. Their logistical train can be attacked and derailed, yours can't.
Properly defended by a small, dedicated group, you should be able to make even a large fleet pay handsomely for destroying your Citadel. I'd recommend you have a fleet of value equal to the cost of the Citadel defending it. You have to make it hurt for this 'Citadel Kill Notch' mania to abate.
Be Positive GÇó Change yourself first, New Eden will come later GÇó EVE is Awesome GÇó CCP isn't the enemy GÇó Players are people too GÇó Where're the clothing blueprints GÇó Yeah, I'm still learning this game
-- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
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Gurista Nerfed
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
9
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Posted - 2016.05.17 23:24:00 -
[25] - Quote
Citadels = Pinatas in space. There is absolutely nothing you can do to defend it if you're a small'ish corp. Also, I despise how CCP raised the tax by 500% just for the sake of citadels.. F your citadels, blow them all to hell. |
Ka Plaa
Raumfahrer Spiff Rakett Piloot Anslutning
247
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Posted - 2016.05.17 23:24:29 -
[26] - Quote
GÖ¬ GÖ½ Bring on the wrecking machine Setting your dreams of heaven on fire Bring on the wrecking machine
Bring on the wrecking machine Gonna ignite your every desire Bring on the wrecking machine For every city you burn I'm gonna build one higher GÖ½ GÖ¬
Hire Mercenaries. Take on allies in your war.
"The Crowd Is Untruth" - Kierkegaard
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Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
194
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Posted - 2016.05.17 23:46:57 -
[27] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:He did not say "better" just that he thought it might take out a ship or two along with it. But hey, keep on beating up that straw man and lecturing us on fallacies. . Sure, he did not use the word "better", but he still expected to take down some ships with it.
But just because you bought that shiny new Battleship or Carrier, you cannot expect to get some guaranteed kills with them. The same applies to citadels. You cannot assume that it will get kills, just because "It's a citadel". If people know how to handle it, then there is no reason for the aggressor to lose ships.
So the notion, that people assume that something will get kills just because it's a battleship, carrier or citadel is a fallacy. Something that is relevant to the OP, since he clearly stated, that he assumed a citadel would be at least able to take down a few ships with it, just because "it's a citadel". |
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
15796
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Posted - 2016.05.17 23:48:01 -
[28] - Quote
TheDamned wrote:a hoe away from home hahaha, i love typos
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Martis Gradivus
EVE University Ivy League
13
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Posted - 2016.05.18 01:59:27 -
[29] - Quote
CCP has stated that the target group for the Astrahus Citadel was small corporations and below, including single industrialists.
"Medium sized Citadel structures will be around 5-25km in diameter and are tailored for individual or small groups of players. They will be able to fit some appropriate defenses to offer resistance against most kind of assaults including capital ships. Moreover, players can dock inside them with sub-capital ships"
The above was copied and pasted from the SHAKE MY CITADEL post by CCP Ytterbium about 1 year ago.
Right now, I don't see ANY of that being true, or even remotely true.
Am I expecting a Citadel to fend off a 50 man battleship gang? No, I am not. But the OP stated that he had expected to have some fun blowing a few ships up as he was being worked over.....well, he should have been able to do just that according to the CCP plan.
Is there a way to fix Citadels to make them more defendable? Surely not without causing major ripples in all 4 areas of space. Is the real culprit, at least as far as high sec is concerned (due to fitting defensive systems limits), the wardec mechanic that lets a small corporation be wardecced by a vastly superior force thus preventing them for properly defending themselves? Again, the fix needs to take into consideration all 4 parts of space.
What will happen when industrial structures come out? They surely won't be able to defend themselves, not in high-sec anyways. So who will benefit from those? Low-sec? Null-Sec? W-Space? The latter 2 I would wager.
I myself have an alt corporation, and I am waiting to drop my medium. I was initially temped to setup in some quiet high-sec system, but now, I may need to deploy to Low-Sec and drop a Large so that I can fit AOE weapons and maybe make the citadel a greater threat. But I'm gonna wait till I get more data on the citadels. Who knows, with the upcoming Rorqual changes, I just might finally take that beast out in lowsec with a large citadel parked in system and mine with it.......maybe. |
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
483
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Posted - 2016.05.18 02:17:15 -
[30] - Quote
TheDamned wrote:I expected this to happen when we put the thing up but I thought I would at least have fun blowing up a few ships as the Citadel was being worked over. Nope. hah! Amusingly, if you had been in low or null and your attackers were in capital ships they quite likely would have lost at least one ship, thereby balancing out the Citadel's cost with the cost to take one down.
To defend a Citadel, you either
- Use a large subcap fleet to overwhelm their fleet (which can be quite difficult - I've led fleets of 80+ people in T1 cruisers and frigs and have been unable to break fleets with just four cruiser logi.)
- Undock Machs (or dreads if you're in low/null) and alpha through their logi.
- User the Citadel itself to take out attacking capitals.
- Watch your Citadel go bye-bye.
A solo Citadel should absolutely be able to be destroyed by an attacker of course - but IMO at a cost in ships that's at least as much as the cost of the Citadel. That this isn't possible is a testament to both how weak Citadels are against subcaps, and how stupidly strong cruiser logi are. Instead of buffing Citadels against subcaps, I'd love to see CCP nerf cruiser logi. Make them like FAXes - only able to effectively provide reps when they themselves are unable to receive reps. (For added flexability, I'm fine with cruiser logi still being able to move and warp when not tackled, unlike FAXes.) Then, a Citadel (or other attacking fleet) can slowly chew through the logi at least, rather than sometimes coming away with absolutely nothing because the reps were so strong. Alpha strikes with things like Machs or Canes are the only other way to get through cruiser reps unless one brings so many neuts and damps as to render the DPS anemic, or so much friendly logi as to prevent either side from getting many kills.
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