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Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
189
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Posted - 2016.05.23 11:49:30 -
[181] - Quote
The skill system was good the way it was for this reason: You set a skill to train, then go off and do whatever you want. You could be a good little grind monkey and mine or mission all day, or you could just wander around this universe and meet people. Or it could be taking a week or two off, which this game's "XP bar" doesn't care about one bit. This is a concept which seems to be lost on a lot of people. For a lot of people, "do what you want" is "print ISK all day." If that's the game you want to play, fine. If that's the game you want to make us play, expect to get buried in rotten tomatoes. This is a game many of us come to and stayed in to get away from that kind of thing. There are many many MMOs out there where everyone who wants to grind XP all day can do that all the XP grinding they want, so go play those instead. Or make an EVE-like with an XP grind. I've played one of those, so... won't see you there.
For these people, there's a reason for the general hostility toward this idea, and any time a grind-for-faster-skills "option" is presented: this kind of mechanism discourages anything any activity which doesn't get you SP, or anything to trade for it.
If we want to keep newbies, show them the true nature of the game. Show them that they're not safe, and they will get blown away if someone decides it's worth it (or is drunk/tired), and this includes hisec. Show them that scams are OK, that backstabbing is a legitimate strategy. Show them that taking smart risks will get them more rewards. And show them that outcomes are not guaranteed: things can, in fact, go bad and worse. The sooner they find out those little details, the sooner they know if they belong here.
A signature :o
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T-Jay Charante
Black Sun Industry and Research
36
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Posted - 2016.05.23 11:56:07 -
[182] - Quote
Can we please stop with the notion that shooting a rat for 2 minutes equals grinding for SP/XP all day long. It's making my brain hurt. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
2499
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Posted - 2016.05.23 12:08:55 -
[183] - Quote
Trader20 wrote:Even in the past with no queues it took an alarm and under a minute to change a skill then back to sleep. It took more effort to get a drink of water in the middle of the night. People saying they stayed up all night to change a skill are being overly dramatic or didn't have an alarm. You clearly sleep alone.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Lucas Kell
Evolution. SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7759
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Posted - 2016.05.23 12:13:48 -
[184] - Quote
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:There are many many MMOs out there where everyone who wants to grind XP all day can do that all the XP grinding they want, so go play those instead. Alternatively we can continue playing EVE as it progresses in ways we enjoy, and people like yourself who can't handle change can be the ones that go play something else.
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:For these people, there's a reason for the general hostility toward this idea, and any time a grind-for-faster-skills "option" is presented: this kind of mechanism discourages anything any activity which doesn't get you SP, or anything to trade for it. Same could be said not only about ISK - which people have actively chased instead of doing other less rewarding activities - but about implants. Implants allow people to generate SP at a faster rate, however having them in means you don't want to lose your pod, so many players simply don't take risks when in a pod kitted out for max SP gains
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:If we want to keep newbies, show them the true nature of the game. Show them that they're not safe, and they will get blown away if someone decides it's worth it (or is drunk/tired), and this includes hisec. Except many newbies don't appreciate being blown up by a veteran player then told to get over it. I'm fine with losing ships because I'm rich enough to buy a new one without giving it a second thought. Having newbies come in and try to progress earning small amounts of isk, then losing it to a veteran who outclasses them in very way isn't necessarily a good thing. These opportunities (being this one and the ones that will follow that are for other activities) give reasons to try out other activities and reward them with progression that can't be easily taken away, so even if they lose their ship they feel like they've gained something, not been reset to the beginning by a random bittervet.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Lathael
Liga der aussergewoehnlichen Tattergreise Evictus.
29
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Posted - 2016.05.23 13:19:58 -
[185] - Quote
Let us see how it develops and give developers opportunities (word game!) to try things and see how they act in real environment. Theorycrafting is a nice thing but in the end we have to see how the ecosystem react on the changes and if it goes wrong, well disable it again.
But until then "stay calm Lathael" is my chant.
I did the same with skill extractors. It was a bit bitter to see some people to be maxed out just by throwing enough money to CCP (bad memories about greed is good); but in the end I have the feeling that I like the extractors.
And to stay in that theme: My character gets 50K skillpoints from a booster which is okay but not awesome. With 10K each day I can get the effect of a skill extractor all 5 days without spending money. I like that.
We will see the effect on the ecosystem soon. |
Raging Bull Unchained
Einheit X-6
726
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Posted - 2016.05.23 13:28:44 -
[186] - Quote
@Lathael:
You lost a 'zero' somewhere. It-¦s 500k per injector (or a bit less). So the same effect as a free injector every 50 (or less) days. Probably 40 days (for 400k injections).
Or do i miss your poin? |
Ohhhhhh Really
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2016.05.23 13:55:26 -
[187] - Quote
Finally
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
2987
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Posted - 2016.05.23 13:57:35 -
[188] - Quote
Ohhhhhh Really wrote:Finally
you make it sound like you have been waiting years for ccp to give you tasks because you feel you cant play without ccp providing content for you
FETID now recruiting pvp pilots & corporations | lowsec pvp & piracy - Join FETID
Loyalist to Angel Cartel & Serpentis
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Trader20
Hedion University Amarr Empire
75
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Posted - 2016.05.23 16:24:00 -
[189] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Ohhhhhh Really wrote:Finally
you make it sound like you have been waiting years for ccp to give you tasks because you feel you cant play without ccp providing content for you
Logging in is content, you heard it here. |
Titti Sabezan
SYNDIC Unlimited
8
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Posted - 2016.05.23 18:50:24 -
[190] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote: Except many newbies don't appreciate being blown up by a veteran player then told to get over it. I'm fine with losing ships because I'm rich enough to buy a new one without giving it a second thought. Having newbies come in and try to progress earning small amounts of isk, then losing it to a veteran who outclasses them in very way isn't necessarily a good thing.
This is EvE. Hello Kitty World is down the corridor
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Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics CODE.
954
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Posted - 2016.05.23 19:55:35 -
[191] - Quote
I am also against the creation of SP through any means but training and feel that CCP was deceptive when they claimed that training would remain the only source of new SP.
If you just HAVE to implement this nonsense, then I must ask:
Why does it have to be an npc kill? Why not just a kill?
What SP injecting mechanic are you implementing that would benefit real pla-- I mean, pvpers?
Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
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Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
718
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Posted - 2016.05.23 20:05:56 -
[192] - Quote
Galaxy Pig wrote:I am also against the creation of SP through any means but training and feel that CCP was deceptive when they claimed that training would remain the only source of new SP.
If you just HAVE to implement this nonsense, then I must ask:
Why does it have to be an npc kill? Why not just a kill?
What SP injecting mechanic are you implementing that would benefit real pla-- I mean, pvpers?
I'm confused. Why is a member of code saying this? A HS gank is as easy as killing an NPC anyway.... |
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics CODE.
955
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Posted - 2016.05.23 20:24:44 -
[193] - Quote
I don't do carebear things.
You're asking me to do a carebear thing.
That's gross.
Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
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Zathra Narazi
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
24
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Posted - 2016.05.23 20:26:41 -
[194] - Quote
T-Jay Charante wrote:Can we please stop with the notion that shooting a rat for 2 minutes equals grinding for SP/XP all day long. It's making my brain hurt. Seriously. Unless you never undock it takes literally 0 extra effort. Just shoot a gate rate as you're going past.
Galaxy Pig wrote:I don't do carebear things.
You're asking me to do a carebear thing.
That's gross. Nobody is making you. You can refuse to do it and keep making the same SP you do now. If you decide to do it it takes an entire 2 or 3 seconds a day. I think you'll live. |
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics CODE.
955
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Posted - 2016.05.23 20:28:47 -
[195] - Quote
Also, I don't think the people suggesting: "lol just hop out of your C6 and blap a sleeper XD" have ever even scanned a wormhole in their lives.
Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
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Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics CODE.
955
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Posted - 2016.05.23 20:33:45 -
[196] - Quote
"If you decide to do it it takes an entire 2 or 3 seconds a day"
Another gross misrepresentation of how much of a pain in the ass this can be.
Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
2992
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Posted - 2016.05.23 20:36:32 -
[197] - Quote
Trader20 wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Ohhhhhh Really wrote:Finally
you make it sound like you have been waiting years for ccp to give you tasks because you feel you cant play without ccp providing content for you Logging in is content?
is the reward for logging in? did you even read anything?
FETID now recruiting pvp pilots & corporations | lowsec pvp & piracy - Join FETID
Loyalist to Angel Cartel & Serpentis
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Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
719
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Posted - 2016.05.23 21:27:47 -
[198] - Quote
Galaxy Pig wrote:I don't do carebear things.
You're asking me to do a carebear thing.
That's gross.
I'm still confused. You only shoot people who can't shoot back in HS. That's as carebear as mining. |
Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
190
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Posted - 2016.05.23 21:34:08 -
[199] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Alternatively we can continue playing EVE as it progresses in ways we enjoy, and people like yourself who can't handle change can be the ones that go play something else. A lot of the time, whenever someone wants a game or other franchise to get (or stay) big, they try to appeal to a broader audience, usually the least common denominator. In doing this, they have this habit of losing what made them different and special. And re-opening the market for that somewhere else, if that someone is smart enough to not try to go crazy huge. Look what they did to the new Star Trek movies: action action action. Lots of fun visuals, but none of the philosophical-type questions which made the older ones Star Trek and unique. They're like re-skinned Star Wars movies. Or Star Wars:Knights of the Old Republic 3. Instead of making an immersive solo-mode KOTOR3, they made SWTOR: WoW in Space With Lots of Expensive Voice Acted Cutscenes. And all the other immersion-breaking MMO things, like other players and respawning mobs. That game failed, so now they harpoon whales instead. That's possible to overdo as well: there were several threads "I went through three hypercrates [about $150] worth of stuff and didn't get super-rare item!" How many of those do you think are going to come back to the cash shop?
Quote:Same could be said not only about ISK - which people have actively chased instead of doing other less rewarding activities - but about implants. Implants allow people to generate SP at a faster rate, however having them in means you don't want to lose your pod, so many players simply don't take risks when in a pod kitted out for max SP gains The solution is to put a stupid fear-of-missing-out mechanism in? If they're having trouble with people farming SP, extracting it, and selling it, maybe they need to stop selling extractors?
I'd expect most of the bittervets know better than to let it run their game, because it's how they got to be vets. They also know how to draw a line between two points and guess where it's heading.
The "rested XP" system in WoW was designed to slow down the people who had all day to play. The original presentation of it was "You will get less XP if you play too long." The community didn't take it too well. All they changed was the presentation: you get bonus XP if you stay in a rest area, and aside from a few who were paying attention, nobody said anything. A lot of us are ex- WoW players.
Quote:Except many newbies don't appreciate being blown up by a veteran player then told to get over it. I'm fine with losing ships because I'm rich enough to buy a new one without giving it a second thought. Having newbies come in and try to progress earning small amounts of isk, then losing it to a veteran who outclasses them in very way isn't necessarily a good thing. These opportunities (being this one and the ones that will follow that are for other activities) give reasons to try out other activities and reward them with progression that can't be easily taken away, so even if they lose their ship they feel like they've gained something, not been reset to the beginning by a random bittervet. Those don't belong here. Learning how to EVE will have you getting your ship getting exploded a lot. If they got all their wealth shot down in one go, they got a cardinal rule of EVE wrong: don't fly what you can't afford to lose. If they don't learn that lesson early, they're going to have a very hard time with the rest of the game.
If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid. -Q
And the other fundamental truth of this game: if you don't go places, meet people, and make friends and enemies, you're probably not going to last very long either, because that rule is even more important than "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose."
Right. This thing wasn't and still isn't about newbies.
A signature :o
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Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony The Wraithguard.
314
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Posted - 2016.05.23 22:01:27 -
[200] - Quote
Galaxy Pig wrote: "If you decide to do it it takes an entire 2 or 3 seconds a day"
Another gross misrepresentation of how much of a pain in the ass this can be. Shooting a rat is hard?
I think we should accept this as a gift, a reward for those eager to play and go out and do stuff. It's not a punishment although I can see why some would feel they 'miss out'. The amount of SP involved, however, is pretty slim. Let's not forget that.
Some guys will min/max their stats. Some guys will have implants. I have an alt with more SP than my main because one is in a training clone all the time while the other is flying a Sabre in null (with no implants). Do the guys in a training pod in highsec deserve more SP than active pilots prone to losing their implants? Does it kill you to see someone else earn a meagre amount of extra SP? Do skillpoints really matter that much? |
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Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
720
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Posted - 2016.05.23 22:15:46 -
[201] - Quote
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:Shooting a rat is hard?
I think we should accept this as a gift, a reward for those eager to play and go out and do stuff. It's not a punishment although I can see why some would feel they 'miss out'. The amount of SP involved, however, is pretty slim. Let's not forget that.
Some guys will min/max their stats. Some guys will have implants. I have an alt with more SP than my main because one is in a training clone all the time while the other is flying a Sabre in null (with no implants). Do the guys in a training pod in highsec deserve more SP than active pilots prone to losing their implants? Does it kill you to see someone else earn a meagre amount of extra SP? Do skillpoints really matter that much?
I agree that people should just not worry about it and not use it if it affects playstyle. People are so backwards in this game. Let's say you spend 5 minutes/day shooting rats to get your 10k SPs. That's 2.5 hours/month for 330k skillpoints. That's a crazy waste of time to get more skillpoints, given what we have available in game. Spend one extra hour/month working IRL, buy a single plex and get skill injectors.
Has no one heard of the time value of money? Grinding ANYTHING in EVE is horribly inefficient. Do what you enjoy in game and ignore skillpoints. |
KaarBaak
321
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Posted - 2016.05.23 22:26:43 -
[202] - Quote
Cidanel Afuran wrote:Brokk Witgenstein wrote:Shooting a rat is hard?
I think we should accept this as a gift, a reward for those eager to play and go out and do stuff. It's not a punishment although I can see why some would feel they 'miss out'. The amount of SP involved, however, is pretty slim. Let's not forget that.
Some guys will min/max their stats. Some guys will have implants. I have an alt with more SP than my main because one is in a training clone all the time while the other is flying a Sabre in null (with no implants). Do the guys in a training pod in highsec deserve more SP than active pilots prone to losing their implants? Does it kill you to see someone else earn a meagre amount of extra SP? Do skillpoints really matter that much? I agree that people should just not worry about it and not use it if it affects playstyle. People are so backwards in this game. Let's say you spend 5 minutes/day shooting rats to get your 10k SPs. That's 2.5 hours/month for 330k skillpoints. That's a crazy waste of time to get more skillpoints, given what we have available in game. Spend one extra hour/month working IRL, buy a single plex and get skill injectors. Has no one heard of the time value of money? Grinding ANYTHING in EVE is horribly inefficient. Do what you enjoy in game and ignore skillpoints. What if grinding and accumulating skillpoints is what you enjoy? Or was your post meant ironically?
Just seems funny that you admonish people for not doing whatever they enjoy and then tell them that a certain thing is a waste of time/money.
EvE is weird. |
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
720
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Posted - 2016.05.23 22:46:55 -
[203] - Quote
KaarBaak wrote:What if grinding and accumulating skillpoints is what you enjoy? Or was your post meant ironically?
Just seems funny that you admonish people for not doing whatever they enjoy and then tell them that a certain thing is a waste of time/money.
EvE is weird.
Then by all means grind away. That was my point. Do what you enjoy and don't worry about things you don't like.
I'm just pointing out that if you feel the need to grind to max SP gain, 'grinding' IRL is much, much more time effective. |
Pandora Carrollon
Kingsman Tailors
291
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Posted - 2016.05.23 23:33:20 -
[204] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:plasticsurgerycandidate2 wrote:
- Feeling forced to log in each day to get your sp -TRADITION - Feeling like you're missing out when you can't log in or forget -ENVY/GREED - Forcing characters that have nothing to do with pve to undock and find an asteroid belt to get their sp -ENVY/LAZY - Forcing characters with highly valuable implant sets to risk them for their sp (think what titan/super pilots have) -FALSE/FEARMONGERING - Will benefit those that stay home from the front lines to rat more than those that deploy for wars -ENVY/GREED ... and on and on
I'm not going to go over the rest of that list, anyone can dump those items into the right buckets. The 3 buckets I gave were more than capable of fitting every complaint I've seen against the recurring daily SP thing. Nothing said shows how it will BREAK EVE as per my original comment.
I log into EVE once, occasionally twice, a week. I'm not out there crying "Unfair", "This will Break EVE", "OMG you guys are so evil because I don't have the time for this!"... even though it's understandable. I can't benefit much.
Then again, I'm not from the social injustice, everything has to be fair, life must be balanced by some external force, generation. I work every weekday, and have major home projects every week end. I have a family and fit EVE in once a week, twice if I can find a spare moment. I enjoy the game and this daily thing doesn't bug me one little bit. If you can take advantage of it every day, then KUDOS to you, go for it. If not, then you're like me. Don't whine about it, work hard and keep working hard while having fun in the game.
Stop complaining and start doing.
Be Positive GÇó Change yourself first, New Eden will come later GÇó EVE is Awesome GÇó CCP isn't the enemy GÇó Players are people too GÇó Where're the clothing blueprints GÇó Yeah, I'm still learning this game
-- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
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Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics CODE.
958
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Posted - 2016.05.24 01:15:37 -
[205] - Quote
Cidanel Afuran wrote:Galaxy Pig wrote:I don't do carebear things.
You're asking me to do a carebear thing.
That's gross. I'm still confused. You only shoot people who can't shoot back in HS. That's as carebear as mining.
Your tears are NECTAR.
Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
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Cara Forelli
Meticulously Indifferent
1824
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Posted - 2016.05.24 03:25:19 -
[206] - Quote
T-Jay Charante wrote:Can we please stop with the notion that shooting a rat for 2 minutes equals grinding for SP/XP all day long. It's making my brain hurt. W.O.R.M.H.O.L.E.
If this required you to kill an incursion rat each day people would be flipping out because that's a lot of effort. Well. That's exactly what ratting is lIke in upper class wormholes. But CCP always ignores wormholers when they make stupid changes (see watchlist).
And yes. Doing something stupid and tedious every day is a grind even if it's short. PI takes just a few minutes but if you do it every day it's a horrific grind and you quickly resent it.
So can we just stop with the whole "it's not a grind" nonsense? It's the very definition of a grind.
Adventures
New player with questions? Join my public channel in game: House Forelli
Titan's Lament
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2843
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Posted - 2016.05.24 03:44:06 -
[207] - Quote
Cara Forelli wrote:T-Jay Charante wrote:Can we please stop with the notion that shooting a rat for 2 minutes equals grinding for SP/XP all day long. It's making my brain hurt. W.O.R.M.H.O.L.E. If this required you to kill an incursion rat each day people would be flipping out because that's a lot of effort. Well. That's exactly what ratting is lIke in upper class wormholes. But CCP always ignores wormholers when they make stupid changes (see watchlist). And yes. Doing something stupid and tedious every day is a grind even if it's short. PI takes just a few minutes but if you do it every day it's a horrific grind and you quickly resent it. So can we just stop with the whole "it's not a grind" nonsense? It's the very definition of a grind.
You can always not do it if it bother you that much to "grind"... |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2843
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Posted - 2016.05.24 03:46:09 -
[208] - Quote
Galaxy Pig wrote:I don't do carebear things.
You're asking me to do a carebear thing.
That's gross.
You are absolutely free to refuse to do the task given and in doing so, forfeit the 10k SP. |
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics CODE.
958
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Posted - 2016.05.24 04:20:58 -
[209] - Quote
So carebears get extra SP handed to them for doing their mundane daily carbear things. Cool. I mean, really lame and stupid, but whatever, cool beans.
All I'm wondering is how non-carebears are going to be awarded SP for the things they regularly do.
Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
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Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony The Wraithguard.
316
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Posted - 2016.05.24 04:26:03 -
[210] - Quote
You'll figure something out. The code always wins, remember? |
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