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Sasha Nemtsov
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
111
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Posted - 2016.05.22 17:36:48 -
[1] - Quote
Ripard Teg was a moderately successful EVE Online blogger.
In the run-up to the CSM election for which he announced his candidacy, he published on his blog a post entitled 'Ganking isn't PvP and never was'.
Well, James 315 couldn't just let that go, now could he?
'Jester's Dreck' is James' response; not a post-mortem examination but rather an anatomical dissection of the most exacting kind.
James' post deals with the nature of Power in EVE, and explores the arguments rehearsed by many players about consensual and non-consensual PvP; an argument which still drags on, unresolved, apparently.
I've introduced and quitted the reading in my own voice and persona; just to prove that I 'don't really speak like that'.
Please do have a listen.
Jester's Dreck
Bless.
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Pix Severus
Empty You
4481
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Posted - 2016.05.23 00:39:09 -
[2] - Quote
I listened to this recording yesterday when it was posted to Minerbumping. Despite the original post being three years old, the subject matter is indeed still very relevant today.
Sasha Nemtsov wrote:I've introduced and quitted the reading in my own voice and persona; just to prove that I 'don't really speak like that'.
A joy to listen to.
-ì-ä-à -£-à+¦-äGêâ-Ç
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Zathra Narazi
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
23
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Posted - 2016.05.23 01:21:49 -
[3] - Quote
I miss James. He was like a street judge taking the long walk, bringing lawlessness to the lawful. |
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
2983
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Posted - 2016.05.23 06:39:37 -
[4] - Quote
i dont consider ganking pvp, i just think its funny
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
4316
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Posted - 2016.05.23 07:06:06 -
[5] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:i dont consider ganking pvp, i just think its funny Then you're stupid because it definitively is PVP. |
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
2984
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Posted - 2016.05.23 07:45:50 -
[6] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Lan Wang wrote:i dont consider ganking pvp, i just think its funny Then you're stupid because it definitively is PVP.
now now Vimsy dont get mad, its just shooting someone unarmed, nothing special
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
4320
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Posted - 2016.05.23 08:06:05 -
[7] - Quote
I don't know if I want to start with the fact that people who get ganked actually are armed most of the time, or by pointing out that its completely irrelevant whether or not the involved parties are armed.
The thing that makes a particular interaction "Player Versus Player" is that the involved parties are all players (this is what the Ps in PVP mean) and that one is trying to do something that that the other wants the other wants them to fail at (This is the Versus, which is the V).
It bothers me that I have to explain a three word, simple English phrase that is its own definition to another (presumably) adult human being. |
Sasha Nemtsov
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
115
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Posted - 2016.05.23 08:19:34 -
[8] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:Lan Wang wrote:i dont consider ganking pvp, i just think its funny Then you're stupid because it definitively is PVP. now now Vimsy dont get mad, its just shooting someone unarmed, nothing special
As regards ganking, James' point is that it consists of attacking another player who has at hisher disposal the means of defence. This might be the fitting of tanking modules, for a solo player, or greater numbers and variety of means for a group.
Sacrificing yield for tank (miners) is a perfectly legitimate way of dealing with gankers. Greed, however, often trumps caution in the behaviour of miners and their ilk.
Whichever way you cut it, one player or group is pitched against the other. The sides do not have to be 'equal'. Indeed, on these forums I've often seen it asserted that there's no such thing as a fair fight in EVE.
It is Player versus Player, ergo PvP.
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
2984
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Posted - 2016.05.23 08:28:50 -
[9] - Quote
dont get me wrong, i pvp and i gank, however i dont consider the 2 the same thing, if i jump into a plex or a gatecamp and we both redbox then i consider that pvp, if i jump into highsec and shoot a miner in a belt then im just ganking
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
4322
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Posted - 2016.05.23 08:47:34 -
[10] - Quote
I'm sorry that your thought process is faulty. |
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
2986
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Posted - 2016.05.23 09:08:51 -
[11] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:I'm sorry that your thought process is faulty.
what would you say to someone who had a killboard 100% of ganking highsec miners and they told you they had excellent "pvp" experience because of this?
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Sasha Nemtsov
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
116
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Posted - 2016.05.23 09:33:24 -
[12] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:I'm sorry that your thought process is faulty. what would you say to someone who had a killboard 100% of ganking highsec miners and they told you they had excellent "pvp" experience because of this?
"Welcome!"
But seriously Lan, all that's happening here is that your own definition of PvP is a tad narrower than that promulgated by CCP, and others.
I don't know why, but however many times it is asserted by the Devs, GMs, Executive Producer, etc., there are folks who simply will not accept that EVE Online is fundamentally a Combat PvP Sandbox MMO.
Surely it is wiser to accept their definition than to fashion one for ourselves?
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
4324
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Posted - 2016.05.23 10:41:54 -
[13] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:what would you say to someone who had a killboard 100% of ganking highsec miners and they told you they had excellent "pvp" experience because of this?
Well for a start I wouldn't make a statement about the quality of something based on a single derived percentage of a single quantitative value.
The only actual information you can get from someone having 100% of their kills being from ganking in highsec is that they have some amount of experience ganking in highsec.
And the quality of their experience is irrelevant anyway since regardless of how much experience they have, or how successful they've been it's still a kind of experience of a kind of PVP activity. |
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
2986
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Posted - 2016.05.23 10:50:05 -
[14] - Quote
maybe its a bit narrow of me but i consider pvp as combat to combat, or 2 players engaging in the same activity against each other (pvp = Player vs player, there is no vs in ganking), and many others think this way too, i get that ganking is a form of pvp but the term is soo subjective, ganking is just player killing.
to call the definition "fashioned" is also pretty narrow especially when you tell someone that they are pvp'ing if they fit a shield extender.
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Nitshe Razvedka
826
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Posted - 2016.05.23 12:13:42 -
[15] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:I'm sorry that your thought process is faulty.
Your though process is limited. If you think winning an argument by defining a word or two is correct, you are displaying your ignorance.
The Eve community is a culture, the gamer community is a culture. A simplistic dictionary definition does explain our cultures attitude and values in relation to a particular issue.
Gankers and some lessor Mercs have one perspective.
Intelligent PVPers, FW players, Carebears, Nullsec Alliances, Greater Mercs and AG's have another perspective on what is PvP within our culture.
Vimsy don't let simplistic definitions define who you are either. I'm sure your more complicated.
Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS.
Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
4331
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Posted - 2016.05.23 12:55:40 -
[16] - Quote
Nitshe Razvedka wrote:The Eve community is a culture, the gamer community is a culture. A simplistic dictionary definition does explain our cultures attitude and values in relation to a particular issue.
Individuals changing their personal definition of PVP arbitrarily to encompass only specific activities doesn't explain any of those things either, it just highlights their personal bias and makes conversation difficult because they're using a term to mean something other than what, by its definition, it actually means.
It's not helpful and it's not informative. It's annoying and it's wrong.
You can like or dislike any given PVP activity as much or as little as you like, but you don't get to write-in your own definition comprised exclusively of things you approve of and still get taken seriously in a conversation. |
Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
218
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Posted - 2016.05.23 13:11:18 -
[17] - Quote
It might not be honourable e-bushido.
But by definition it is PvP. So there is really nothing to argue here. |
Nitshe Razvedka
827
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Posted - 2016.05.23 13:13:15 -
[18] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Nitshe Razvedka wrote:The Eve community is a culture, the gamer community is a culture. A simplistic dictionary definition does explain our cultures attitude and values in relation to a particular issue. Individuals changing their personal definition of PVP arbitrarily to encompass only specific activities doesn't explain any of those things either, it just highlights their personal bias and makes conversation difficult because they're using a term to mean something other than what, by its definition, it actually means. It's not helpful and it's not informative. It's annoying and it's wrong. You can like or dislike any given PVP activity as much or as little as you like, but you don't get to write-in your own definition comprised exclusively of things you approve of and still get taken seriously in a conversation.
Dry your eyes Vimsy, take a deep breath and listen. You are not correct, and I am not 'wrong', broad groups and cultures have different perspectives.
Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS.
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
2986
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Posted - 2016.05.23 13:14:30 -
[19] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Nitshe Razvedka wrote:The Eve community is a culture, the gamer community is a culture. A simplistic dictionary definition does explain our cultures attitude and values in relation to a particular issue. Individuals changing their personal definition of PVP arbitrarily to encompass only specific activities doesn't explain any of those things either, it just highlights their personal bias and makes conversation difficult because they're using a term to mean something other than what, by its definition, it actually means. It's not helpful and it's not informative. It's annoying and it's wrong. You can like or dislike any given PVP activity as much or as little as you like, but you don't get to write-in your own definition comprised exclusively of things you approve of and still get taken seriously in a conversation.
Its an opinion, not a definition
even ship spinning is considered pvp, i must remember this when filling out my app to pl
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
4331
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Posted - 2016.05.23 13:15:01 -
[20] - Quote
The post-modernism is palpable. |
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Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
220
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Posted - 2016.05.23 13:25:56 -
[21] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:even ship spinning is considered pvp, i must remember this when filling out my app to pl Ship spinning on its own is not really PvP, since it does not involve conflict between you and another player. However, market trading is PvP and can be done while ship spinning. It is just another form of PvP compared to shooting at player ships.
PvP is not a concept that has been broadly discussed in academics. However, on the wiki of "Player versus Player" they take the definition found in a book called "Designing Virtual World" by Richard Bartle. The definition is:
"Player versus Player (PvP). Players are opposed by other players. In a combat situation, this means PCs can fight each other"
And also relevant to EvE would be this snippet on pure PvP worlds.
"In a pure PvP world, there is no consensuality: People can try to mess you about, whether or not you like it; they may run the risk of being attacked by you, your friends, and perhaps the local police force too as a result, but they can still try."
Since most of us have played a ton of multiplayer games and the concept itself is not really hard to grasp, I think we all can agree that this definition is what we all understand by PvP.
So by that definition, suicide ganking and market trading are both PvP, it is just another form of PvP compared to honourable e-bushido.
EDIT: Found a preview of the book and the relevant quotes. |
Nitshe Razvedka
827
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Posted - 2016.05.23 13:31:55 -
[22] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Nitshe Razvedka wrote: Everyone is right The post-modernism is palpable.
If I followed qualitative and quantitive research methods I would:
survey a sample of the different player groups to define what PvP meant to them,
THEN provide the results in the form of percentages,
and have an explanation of the results.
Its called good science, not pandering to the most entitled group that shouts loudest.
Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS.
Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
15936
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Posted - 2016.05.23 13:40:37 -
[23] - Quote
Nitshe Razvedka wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:Nitshe Razvedka wrote: Everyone is right The post-modernism is palpable. If I followed qualitative and quantitive research methods I would: survey a sample of the different player groups to define what PvP meant to them, THEN provide the results in the form of percentages, and have an explanation of the results. Its called good science, not pandering to the most entitled group that shouts loudest. Its not a subjective thing, its a simple ,straightforward term that covers ganking. Honestly if you are going to be obtuse , pick something with some ambiguity or intresting talking points.
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
2987
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Posted - 2016.05.23 13:52:00 -
[24] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:Ship spinning on its own is not really PvP, since it does not involve conflict between you and another player. However, market trading is PvP and can be done while ship spinning. It is just another form of PvP compared to shooting at player ships.
denying someone a kill can very well be classed as pvp, if i stay docked instead of fighting someone, its pvp?
even miners who skip corps to avoid wardecs, thats a form of pvp too, i mean blueballing and content denial is pvp?
it may be the definition but pvp'ers are classed people who fight other fighters, im not trying to change a definition im merely expressing my opinion that a pvper is considered a fighter and a ganker is just someone who shoots a mostly helpless/non-combat player.
nobody ever answers the question "what is your pvp experience? with....everything in eve is pvp so its very great" they refer to it as combat vs combat. everybody does
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Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
220
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Posted - 2016.05.23 14:07:10 -
[25] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Maekchu wrote:Ship spinning on its own is not really PvP, since it does not involve conflict between you and another player. However, market trading is PvP and can be done while ship spinning. It is just another form of PvP compared to shooting at player ships. denying someone a kill can very well be classed as pvp, if i stay docked instead of fighting someone, its pvp? even miners who skip corps to avoid wardecs, thats a form of pvp too, i mean blueballing and content denial is pvp? it may be the definition but pvp'ers are classed people who fight other fighters, im not trying to change a definition im merely expressing my opinion that a pvper is considered a fighter and a ganker is just someone who shoots a mostly helpless/non-combat player. nobody ever answers the question "what is your pvp experience? with....everything in eve is pvp so its very great" they refer to it as combat vs combat. everybody does You are actually correct that ship spinning on its own is PvP. Forgot to look at it from that perspective. Which is why most people simply say that EvE just is a PvP game at its core, because most activities in EvE are PvP. And even if you try to avoid direct player confrontations, you are always at the risk of running into someone who wants to shoot you.
Blueballing or avoiding getting killed is still a useful skill. But not so sure this is what PL looks for in their recruits :P
It is true that we usually refer to player shooting at each other, when asking the question "Do you PvP?". But that doesn't change the definition of PvP, and therefore you cannot just say ganking is not PvP since it suits your current perception of PvP. Ganking is by definition PvP whether you like it or not.
You cannot change definitions. You are basically saying that if I perceive a banana to not be what is defined as a banana, I can just call it something else. From now on, I do not acknowledge the definition of bananas. I believe strawberries are closer to my understanding of bananas and and henceforth, I will call strawberries "bananas" and bananas are to be called "disgusting yellow goo".
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Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
2872
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Posted - 2016.05.23 14:16:48 -
[26] - Quote
By the standards of some what I do is not considered PVP despite the very low success rate for getting engagements and the moderately high success rate for getting kills when I do get an engagement. I bait mission runners. We all know this... but sometimes they shoot. They all have guns, so that meets most people's qualifications, but really lets face it, the game is rigged in my favor. It's the fit. My targets generally do not have neuts or webs fitted because of reasons.
Sometimes they do.
This makes it exciting for me, as I don't scan their fits and with skill injectors I now have NO idea just how much mojo their character sheet is packing. I simply do what I do and bet on stupid.
However, because my targets are not PVP players necessarily engaged in PVP activities you could easily argue that I am a bad person for taking advantage of an ill-prepared opponent in order to score an 'easy kill' (FYI, some of those 'easy kills' are insanely rough, leaving my ship on fire for most of the fight). Some of these 'easy kills' have sent my pod scampering off to the nearest planet post haste in order to prevent the subsequent loss of implants due to me underestimating the awesomeness of my foe.
Then there are the miners. Everyone says 'helpless mining vessel'... I say 'Have you f*cking SEEN a Skiff?' I have had an enyo run screaming on fire from a pair of these monsters before. Procurers are pretty bad too... unless it's a war target you can single out and kill without repercussions, a mining fleet poses some serious risks for your average nogoodnik.
Okay, I'm rambling. I guess my point is that whenever you and another player have conflicting desires for the outcome of a situation and both of you have an influence on said outcome it is PVP. If your objective is to live and you do, then you have won at pvp on your end. If your objective is to kill and you do then you have achieved your objective. This applies no matter what your objective is. Sometimes it's something weird like 'I don't care what you're doing, but you need to do that somewhere else.'
Did I sense make?
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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Nitshe Razvedka
827
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Posted - 2016.05.23 14:22:45 -
[27] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin ' Its not a subjective thing, its a simple ,straightforward term that covers ganking."
I say the majority ( *not researched*) of the Eve community says otherwise. Are you or the majority correct?
Definitions ( the same as language) vary within communities, also language changes over time.
"A lowsec PvPer " congers a totally different image to "Hisec ganker" from most perspectives. With a simplistic definition of PvP you could classify them as the same.
Ralph I respect your experience as a Merc within Eve, but I don't agree with you on this issue.
Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS.
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Dom Arkaral
Axios
439
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Posted - 2016.05.23 15:06:59 -
[28] - Quote
PvP is player versus player... no matter the type of engagement. Be it ships blowing up ships (legitimately or illegitimately), or market .01 isking, of just mining more than your competitor, it all is pvp.
Ganking is just a non-consensual pvp type, just like gate camps...
But it the end PvP is and always be player versus player.
PvP
Merc. Tear Gatherer. Quebecker. Has no Honer. Salt Harvester. #b4r
Gù+Montreal EVE Meet Organiser
Gù+Come talk in the ingame chan "EVE Montreal" for more info or just to chill!
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Nitshe Razvedka
829
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Posted - 2016.05.23 15:13:28 -
[29] - Quote
Dom Arkaral wrote:PvP is player versus player... no matter the type of engagement. Be it ships blowing up ships (legitimately or illegitimately), or market .01 isking, of just mining more than your competitor, it all is pvp. Ganking is just a non-consensual pvp type, just like gate camps... But it the end PvP is and always be player versus player. PvP
Dom, by merely appearing in this thread you have screeewed any progress Vimsy and Ralph ever had.......
Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS.
Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
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Tyyler DURden
Mordechai and Sons Distribution Co.
298
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Posted - 2016.05.23 15:15:47 -
[30] - Quote
Kind of like turning your guns on and blowing up someones pod, right Dom? Thats considered pvp too right?
Tyyler DURden says "use soap"
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