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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Zetakya
Echelon Research The Volition Cult
12
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Posted - 2016.05.25 09:15:43 -
[1] - Quote
I would like to suggest CCP implement an industrial contract option, in which the Contract Creator can provide materials, BP and set a collateral, with an expected due date for delivery of the industrial output along with the BP (if original or has any remaining runs), and of course a payment. |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
853
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Posted - 2016.05.25 13:52:17 -
[2] - Quote
You can do this with the current contract system, why do we need another specifically for industrial players? |
Zetakya
Echelon Research The Volition Cult
12
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Posted - 2016.05.25 15:25:28 -
[3] - Quote
You can't do what I'm asking for in the current contract system. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2628
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Posted - 2016.05.25 15:53:01 -
[4] - Quote
sure you can you contract mats then contract back finished product
Citadel worm hole tax
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Elenahina
The Scope Gallente Federation
880
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Posted - 2016.05.25 17:28:34 -
[5] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:sure you can you contract mats then contract back finished product
Used to do this when I ran industry. We would contract the BPC (never give out originals, unless you're willing to lose them), and the materials with the price set as our cost. They would contract it back for a set price depending on the item, and we would then do whatever with the item.
It helps to have something in place to track what's floating around - I used google sheets.
Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you.
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
856
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Posted - 2016.05.26 12:42:38 -
[6] - Quote
Zetakya wrote:You can't do what I'm asking for in the current contract system. Everything you are asking for based on your original post can be done with the current contract system, we know this to be fact because many of us do it all the time.
If you would give us more information on the specific problems you have we may be able to assist you in making the current system work for you. |
Zetakya
Echelon Research The Volition Cult
12
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Posted - 2016.05.26 22:00:25 -
[7] - Quote
Elenahina wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:sure you can you contract mats then contract back finished product Used to do this when I ran industry. We would contract the BPC (never give out originals, unless you're willing to lose them), and the materials with the price set as our cost. They would contract it back for a set price depending on the item, and we would then do whatever with the item. It helps to have something in place to track what's floating around - I used google sheets.
Thank you for proving my point. That's two contracts. I want one contract, which gives you the materials & BPC (& takes the collateral) when you accept, and is completed (paying you and giving you the collateral back) when you hand over the finished item. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2634
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Posted - 2016.05.26 23:49:55 -
[8] - Quote
sounds like your idea just limits player interaction. these kinds of build contracts already happen with people across corps and alliances but currently require people to talk to each other put in a bit of trust and get something worked out.
Citadel worm hole tax
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Zetakya
Echelon Research The Volition Cult
12
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Posted - 2016.05.27 00:03:44 -
[9] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:sounds like your idea just limits player interaction. these kinds of build contracts already happen with people across corps and alliances but currently require people to talk to each other put in a bit of trust and get something worked out. To me, it's a fact that *not* having this option limits player interaction, because there's no guaranteed way of setting up industrial arrangements with people you don't know. The idea here is to expand industry *beyond* the confines of Corp & Alliance. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2634
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Posted - 2016.05.27 00:23:19 -
[10] - Quote
i just said it is done across alliances so they are not restrained by them. clicking and finishing someones contract is barley interaction
Citadel worm hole tax
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Ivan Malik
Viziam Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2016.05.27 03:30:50 -
[11] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:sounds like your idea just limits player interaction. these kinds of build contracts already happen with people across corps and alliances but currently require people to talk to each other put in a bit of trust and get something worked out.
Using your logic courier contracts should not be a thing either, because that can be covered under a normal contract as well: create contract to sell x in Amarr, create contract to buy x in Jita. Persons buys item from contract in Amarr, freighters it over to Jita, sells it to the same person on contract.
While you are correct, there is no "legal" binding aspect to contracts of this nature done under the current system. The entire transaction is built on the promise of a return contract. Which works great between entities that have the means to contact one another in a semi trusted manner, or have the might to back things up if a deal goes south. View this from the solo perspective though. There is no way to initialize the conversation about a transaction like this. There is no reason for a producer or contractor to trust getting anything out of the deal. Set the price high and no one will touch it, create a collateral system and people will realize it is a temporary cost... unless things are worked out before hand and there is already some trust there. Right now this only happens when producer and consumer already establish a connection, usually through a third party like a corp or across corps/alliances. It is them meeting through for other reasons or through other entities that starts that exchange of trust.
This wouldn't limit player interaction either, it would do wonders for the less established industrialists and would likely encourage connections. When I first started I didn't want to join a crappy HS industrial corp and have to deal with all the drama and politics that goes along with one man shows (which the majority of them are), but I needed the connections to actually accomplish anything of meaning. Using contracts like this means that I can see who completed a job fast and hook up with a reliable producer/consumer without needing a corp or the faceless market to do it. It would allow for the different stages of a production chain to actually see who is who without the need to initialize on blind trust or join a larger structure outright. This allows industrialist to connect in the same fashion that killboards do for pvpers. It would likely establish the trust needed to start actual good functioning industrial corps. It is kind of like going to a market (proposed contract system) vs going to the super market (buying and selling off the market) vs buying something off a random truck on the side of the road (current contract system). You can see the people selling/producing and there is a legal entity governing the whole thing. While there is nothing wrong with buying something off a random truck, less people do it because there is less trust. In the same fashion people value knowing where something is produced because more trust is established in the process, so they pay more for it IRL. In game trust is the currency that is being earned... isk to, but it break the metaphor. Seeing a producer, being able to trust a producer on the initial engagement, leads to higher trust gains earlier on, which leads to people paying more in both isk and trust, just like when knowing where something is produced IRL.
This is a great tool for new players, not bitter vets who are already established. It lowers the barrier for entry, while maintaining the ceiling.
Now For something actually constructive. This could be applied to PI chains, invention or any multi-step industrial process. Why limit it to just T1 production. It could provide the security for caps and supers to be produced beyond a single person running the whole production process. It also could be used in the same manner as courier contracts are for scamming. I would limit it to just BPCs though. This is a perfect application for them to be used outside of invention. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2637
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Posted - 2016.05.27 04:17:03 -
[12] - Quote
But courier contracts don't take extra dev time to add considering they are already here.
Citadel worm hole tax
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
858
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Posted - 2016.05.27 13:35:27 -
[13] - Quote
Zetakya wrote:To me, it's a fact that *not* having this option limits player interaction, because there's no guaranteed way of setting up industrial arrangements with people you don't know. The idea here is to expand industry *beyond* the confines of Corp & Alliance. You need to go back and look at your proposal from all possible angles because you have not thought this through completely. Just one example you contract me the bpc and materials to build 100 Rifters expecting that I will build the ships and then complete the contract by allowing you to take delivery of those ships. But being the creative and opportunistic guy that I am I simply transfer the BPC and the materials to another character and build them and sell them myself. What actions can you take now to get your Rifters back? A bounty is worthless I have flown with bounties for most of my time in this game. You could war dec the corp but what the hell been there before as welll, simply reassign an alt to the CEO position and bail to an NPC or simply play on other characters for the week and all your war dec is doing is costing you even more money than I already stole from you. And what if I use a disposable character to accept your contract, transfer the stuff and then biomass the character, what can you do then?
After reading you other posts I still say no to your idea. The only thing that would change is the removal of the second contract needed to transfer your stuff back to you after it is built and to be honest that is simply not worth the devs time to eliminate. Especially since your idea does nothing to solve the inherent risks associated with letting a contract to someone you do not know and trust in a game where there are so many ways to steal your stuff and there is nothing you can do to prevent it or to punish me after.
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Zetakya
Echelon Research The Volition Cult
13
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Posted - 2016.05.28 09:57:58 -
[14] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:Zetakya wrote:To me, it's a fact that *not* having this option limits player interaction, because there's no guaranteed way of setting up industrial arrangements with people you don't know. The idea here is to expand industry *beyond* the confines of Corp & Alliance. You need to go back and look at your proposal from all possible angles because you have not thought this through completely. Just one example you contract me the bpc and materials to build 100 Rifters expecting that I will build the ships and then complete the contract by allowing you to take delivery of those ships. But being the creative and opportunistic guy that I am I simply transfer the BPC and the materials to another character and build them and sell them myself. What actions can you take now to get your Rifters back? A bounty is worthless I have flown with bounties for most of my time in this game. You could war dec the corp but what the hell been there before as welll, simply reassign an alt to the CEO position and bail to an NPC or simply play on other characters for the week and all your war dec is doing is costing you even more money than I already stole from you. And what if I use a disposable character to accept your contract, transfer the stuff and then biomass the character, what can you do then?
This is why there is a collateral set, as it says in my first post. Just as with Courier contracts, the Collateral should be set at more than the value of the goods being transferred. Your objection here is something I have already considered and addressed in the original proposal.
Donnachadh wrote:After reading you other posts I still say no to your idea. The only thing that would change is the removal of the second contract needed to transfer your stuff back to you after it is built and to be honest that is simply not worth the devs time to eliminate. Especially since your idea does nothing to solve the inherent risks associated with letting a contract to someone you do not know and trust in a game where there are so many ways to steal your stuff and there is nothing you can do to prevent it or to punish me after.
No, it *does* solve the inherent risks, in the same way that a Courier contract does. Your objection (and that of others in this thread) is akin to saying we don't need Courier contracts, because you could just set up two contracts, one at the source and one at the destination.
Surely you can understand how wrong that is? |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2663
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Posted - 2016.05.28 10:18:44 -
[15] - Quote
BUT WHY
why would anyone use this
If its just some random person then you have to put up a high collateral so i need more isk to start with. so i could have just bought the mats and BPC on my own.
then you have the fact that either i am being payed over market price (or why am i doing it rather than just selling to the market) or you are paying under(why would i pay over market price at that rate i could just buy it)
so the only reason to use this is if person A does not have the isk to cover the build cost so person B can front him that and get the end product cheaper. but if A has to pay collateral then he has the isk to do this on his own and if B is not charging high collateral then odds are they know each other and can do things the way they are done now
Citadel worm hole tax
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Zetakya
Echelon Research The Volition Cult
13
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Posted - 2016.05.28 14:10:17 -
[16] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:BUT WHY
why would anyone use this
If its just some random person then you have to put up a high collateral so i need more isk to start with. so i could have just bought the mats and BPC on my own.
then you have the fact that either i am being payed over market price (or why am i doing it rather than just selling to the market) or you are paying under(why would i pay over market price at that rate i could just buy it)
so the only reason to use this is if person A does not have the isk to cover the build cost so person B can front him that and get the end product cheaper. but if A has to pay collateral then he has the isk to do this on his own and if B is not charging high collateral then odds are they know each other and can do things the way they are done now
Considering that this suggestion comes directly from my Corp chatting and dreaming up how we would like to have this as an option... we'd use it. I'm sure other people would too.
It's particularly designed for low-volume, high-value industry, where speculative building of the items (say, Capital parts) is prohibitively time-consuming without a guaranteed sale. The idea is to create a contractual means of guaranteeing a build run in low-volume, high-value industries.
This is designed to improve the breadth of industrial options, and widen participation in Industry as a whole.
*YOU* might not want to use it, but I *really* want something like this so I can set contracts up for things that people won't otherwise create. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2666
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Posted - 2016.05.28 14:14:26 -
[17] - Quote
how is a market order not a guarantied sale? even if the one you were looking at is gone when the job is done good chance it wont be the last one bought in that range
Citadel worm hole tax
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Zetakya
Echelon Research The Volition Cult
13
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Posted - 2016.05.28 14:25:58 -
[18] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:how is a market order not a guarantied sale? even if the one you were looking at is gone when the job is done good chance it wont be the last one bought in that range Let me try and put this simply for you: People simply don't start jobs because there isn't a guaranteed sale when it comes to the kind of high-value/low-volume items this will be useful for.
It's just not economically worth the risk of tying your cash up into a build that doesn't have a guaranteed sale.
This idea is an attempt to address this.
None of your objections are talking about the thing this idea is intended to do. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2666
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Posted - 2016.05.28 14:27:35 -
[19] - Quote
except people do start these jobs. yes there is risk but there is also reward. just because you don't have the cajones doesn't mean others dont
Citadel worm hole tax
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4454
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Posted - 2016.05.28 14:31:52 -
[20] - Quote
Zetakya wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:how is a market order not a guarantied sale? even if the one you were looking at is gone when the job is done good chance it wont be the last one bought in that range Let me try and put this simply for you: People simply don't start jobs because there isn't a guaranteed sale when it comes to the kind of high-value/low-volume items this will be useful for. It's just not economically worth the risk of tying your cash up into a build that doesn't have a guaranteed sale. This idea is an attempt to address this. None of your objections are talking about the thing this idea is intended to do.
I do this all the time. Sure, I occasionally get stuck with a dozen eris I can't shift, or a chimera no-one wants, but it always sells in the end.
Or I use it. Either way, the stuff goes eventually. |
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Zetakya
Echelon Research The Volition Cult
13
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Posted - 2016.05.28 15:56:08 -
[21] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Zetakya wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:how is a market order not a guarantied sale? even if the one you were looking at is gone when the job is done good chance it wont be the last one bought in that range Let me try and put this simply for you: People simply don't start jobs because there isn't a guaranteed sale when it comes to the kind of high-value/low-volume items this will be useful for. It's just not economically worth the risk of tying your cash up into a build that doesn't have a guaranteed sale. This idea is an attempt to address this. None of your objections are talking about the thing this idea is intended to do. I do this all the time. Sure, I occasionally get stuck with a dozen eris I can't shift, or a chimera no-one wants, but it always sells in the end. Or I use it. Either way, the stuff goes eventually.
"Eventually" is economically inefficient, especially for industrialists without the reserves to tie up in unsold goods.
This would resolve that issue for them.
I run into this issue all the time when trying to arrange part runs. This would fix industry contracting. |
Zetakya
Echelon Research The Volition Cult
13
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Posted - 2016.05.28 15:57:39 -
[22] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:except people do start these jobs. yes there is risk but there is also reward. just because you don't have the cajones doesn't mean others dont You don't understand. I can't get people to start these jobs. I want to be able to issue guaranteed contracts, not fulfil them.
Buy orders do not work - nobody fills them, because on a long build time the order might be gone before the build is done. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2670
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Posted - 2016.05.28 16:07:44 -
[23] - Quote
if you are talking about capital parts still that's generally because their value drops below mineral cost.
also these things only take a few hrs to build....... it's not that long of a run time.
and if you can't find ppl to fill them you are not asking the right ones send out mails to CEOs or diplos of med to large indi corps/alliances you will find many of them willing to as they enjoy filling contracts more than selling to faceless markets.
I have had loads of crap built for me this way (usually as a way to help a new corp get started) I have also served as a middle man when connecting buyers and sellers. hell i just set up a three party chain not a month ago with a mining corp mining minerals an indi corp building caps and then a final buyer. so this claim that no one is filling them is crap
Citadel worm hole tax
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4454
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Posted - 2016.05.28 16:47:14 -
[24] - Quote
Zetakya wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:except people do start these jobs. yes there is risk but there is also reward. just because you don't have the cajones doesn't mean others dont You don't understand. I can't get people to start these jobs. I want to be able to issue guaranteed contracts, not fulfil them. Buy orders do not work - nobody fills them, because on a long build time the order might be gone before the build is done.
...train an industry alt for yourself, and you'll never have this problem again. They pay for themselves pretty fast.
Failing that, make friends with one of your alliance's industry guys. Or just another guy with the skills necessary.
Or what Lugh said.
You're in a 3000 man alliance, it should not be hard for you to find someone who can build **** for you. |
Cyrus Tybalt
Blap n Pew
13
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Posted - 2016.05.29 19:45:11 -
[25] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:But courier contracts don't take extra dev time to add considering they are already here.
So basically, your whole argument really bottles down to: "I want the devs to focus on my ideas over yours, therefore I will dismiss your idea out of hand as a bad one, without considering it on it's own merit."
A pretty selfish and dishonest angle to enter into a discussion from. |
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