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Pandora Carrollon
Kingsman Tailors
341
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Posted - 2016.06.06 19:38:42 -
[1] - Quote
I have used railguns for a while now and am quite enjoying the Railgun II and advanced ammunition, but there is just a bizzare range issue for the ammunition that makes me wonder if it's intentional or maybe pushing skills/modules to overcome it.
Spike ammo has awesome range but in a medium ship or larger, the turrets just can't hit diddly at about 20km or less without module support. So, maybe 'Javelin'?
Javelin ammo can hit at short intermediate but it's horrible odds and the damage is relatively weak until you get to 'long' short ranges (under 10k). Now at medium short (4K-10K), it hits like a ton of bricks, but at short short (<5k) you're better off with blasters so a rail fighter won't want to wander into that range.
So, tactically, there is a 'hole' in your offensive envelope at about 13km - 25km (larger if you count in the 5 second ammo swap time). Yeah, you can module/skill to help overcome this but you'll always be trying to find that perfect time to switch out ammunition types.
Anyone have a good solution (besides weapon platform changes) to this predicament? Do you think it's intentional on CCP's part to create this dead spot?
Maybe I'm just using the guns wrong.
Be Positive GÇó Change yourself first, New Eden will come later GÇó EVE is Awesome GÇó CCP isn't the enemy GÇó Players are people too GÇó Where're the clothing blueprints GÇó Yeah, I'm still learning this game
-- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
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Paranoid Loyd
9106
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Posted - 2016.06.06 19:59:30 -
[2] - Quote
I rarely use Javelin, I carry faction anti-matter and if I need range switch to Spike. The same hold true for Projectiles, short ranged faction, long ranged T2.
Fix the Prospect! New Server Hardware!
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Hawke Frost
180
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Posted - 2016.06.06 20:14:31 -
[3] - Quote
Pandora Carrollon wrote:I have used railguns for a while now and am quite enjoying the Railgun II and advanced ammunition, but there is just a bizzare range issue for the ammunition that makes me wonder if it's intentional or maybe pushing skills/modules to overcome it.
Spike ammo has awesome range but in a medium ship or larger, the turrets just can't hit diddly at about 20km or less without module support. So, maybe 'Javelin'?
Javelin ammo can hit at short intermediate but it's horrible odds and the damage is relatively weak until you get to 'long' short ranges (under 10k). Now at medium short (4K-10K), it hits like a ton of bricks, but at short short (<5k) you're better off with blasters so a rail fighter won't want to wander into that range.
So, tactically, there is a 'hole' in your offensive envelope at about 13km - 25km (larger if you count in the 5 second ammo swap time). Yeah, you can module/skill to help overcome this but you'll always be trying to find that perfect time to switch out ammunition types.
Anyone have a good solution (besides weapon platform changes) to this predicament? Do you think it's intentional on CCP's part to create this dead spot?
Maybe I'm just using the guns wrong.
From your wording it seems as if you assume t2 ammo to be the standard and obvious choice to use once you have T2 weapons, it's not because T2 hybrid ammo is highly specialized. The "gap", as you put it, is filled by T1 ammo (be it normal of faction). Spike is VERY situational and Javelin is really only used in PVP, scram kiting railgun frigs for example.
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Cristl
450
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Posted - 2016.06.06 20:16:13 -
[4] - Quote
We are really due for a weapons and ammo balance pass by now. |
Pandora Carrollon
Kingsman Tailors
342
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Posted - 2016.06.06 21:22:26 -
[5] - Quote
Hmmm... maybe I was mesmerized by the range/damage of the Faction ammo but those middle range normal ammos are pretty weak as well.
So, I guess it would come down to doing some real world numbers tests for dps at certain ranges with the logical ammo types.
Personally I like the faction ammo because it is only TWO different forms of ammo in the cargo bay. My T1 fits looked like a buffet conga line of ammo crates... It was also more swapping, I found myself only carrying 3 ranges after a while and 10 seconds lost in a combat for down ranging the ammo was not good for the dps.
Since I'm primarily up against NPC's I guess I have the luxury of starting most fights at the ranges I want (this doesn't work on accelerated gate sites, so I have to do my first pass in hit and run format and draw off the aggro'd units and take them down. After that it's my terms for follow ups. So, I've never really had a major issue with this, even the 'gap' isn't hideous but I was hoping someone had a cool trick to deal with it.
I guess I could hit the AB and close while I switch to Javelin or just keep kiting out the range and stay on Spike. I really don't want to go back to the wait for change out/rainbow ammo cargo bay days... LOL!
Well, I appreciate the input, it's more to consider and maybe weave in some normal ammo.
Be Positive GÇó Change yourself first, New Eden will come later GÇó EVE is Awesome GÇó CCP isn't the enemy GÇó Players are people too GÇó Where're the clothing blueprints GÇó Yeah, I'm still learning this game
-- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
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Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
13
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Posted - 2016.06.06 21:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
well if you don't want to wait the recharge timer then go for lasers, instant recharge and you are ready to go |
Dirty Forum Alt
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
24
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Posted - 2016.06.06 21:31:19 -
[7] - Quote
Cristl wrote:We are really due for a weapons and ammo balance pass by now. Don't even joke about that. They might take you seriously, and then we will be stuck with "A Gun I" and "A Gun II" with 2 types of ammo for each and it'll just fit on all races of ships - everything else will get rolled into it.
@ the OP - that is what Fed Navy Antimatter is for. |
Pandora Carrollon
Kingsman Tailors
342
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Posted - 2016.06.06 21:33:51 -
[8] - Quote
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:@ the OP - that is what Fed Navy Antimatter is for.
Ah, haven't looked into that yet... now I will have to! This may be the solution... Thanks!
Be Positive GÇó Change yourself first, New Eden will come later GÇó EVE is Awesome GÇó CCP isn't the enemy GÇó Players are people too GÇó Where're the clothing blueprints GÇó Yeah, I'm still learning this game
-- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
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Pandora Carrollon
Kingsman Tailors
342
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Posted - 2016.06.06 21:39:17 -
[9] - Quote
Soel Reit wrote:well if you don't want to wait the recharge timer then go for lasers, instant recharge and you are ready to go
It's not the recharge timer, it's the 5 second reload timer you get when you change ammo types.
All hybrid turrets have a lot of limitations. The reload timer, they only do Thermal/Kinetic, the range swapping, cargo holds full of the stuff, etc. They have some good advantages too. The larger ships can engage targets at warpable ranges.
I'm not calling for rebalancing here, just plumbing other players skill boxes to see what you guys do to deal with the rail issues. So far, some great answers.
Any rebalance would either need to be very minor or an entire re-do of the weapons systems. Right now I think Missles are about the best overall weapon in the game because of their ability to tailor their ammo against ship type. Hybrids are stuck with Thermal/Kinetic, which is fine for many NPC's but against players that know you have rails? Ouch.
Be Positive GÇó Change yourself first, New Eden will come later GÇó EVE is Awesome GÇó CCP isn't the enemy GÇó Players are people too GÇó Where're the clothing blueprints GÇó Yeah, I'm still learning this game
-- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
6176
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Posted - 2016.06.06 21:42:13 -
[10] - Quote
I tend to use antimatter, uranium, and spike (instead of lead).
Javelin really requires a frigate / destroyer fit with a web, and has such a severe optimal penalty that you might as well as be using blasters.
I dislike that "javelin" is used inconsistently in T2 ammo naming. |
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Josef Djugashvilis
3436
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Posted - 2016.06.07 06:51:25 -
[11] - Quote
Cristl wrote:We are really due for a weapons and ammo balance pass by now.
Dear god, do NOT give CCP ideas.
It took them the best part of two years to stop messing with drones, just think how long they would mess with ammo for!
This is not a signature.
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sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
173
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Posted - 2016.06.07 08:05:35 -
[12] - Quote
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
@ the OP - that is what Fed Navy Antimatter is for.
This. I think Navy antimatter/Uranium are the ammo types, I use the most with rails. Packs a nice punch at decent range with two damage types, and no crappy tracking penalty.
"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
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Gimme Sake
State War Academy Caldari State
369
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Posted - 2016.06.07 21:25:13 -
[13] - Quote
Use Navy Antimatter, Navy Thorium for extended range. Eventually one or two tracking computers with optimal or tracking scripts. Spike is used on ships with a healthy optimal/falloff bonus, like Eagle, Railgu or scripted Rail Proteus, to snipe at targets at over 100km distances.
"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
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Pix Severus
Empty You
4805
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Posted - 2016.06.07 21:42:52 -
[14] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Dear god, do NOT give CCP ideas.
We're safe as long as no-one posts this to Reddit.
-ì-ä-à -£-à+¦-äGêâ-Ç
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Sustrai Aditua
Intandofisa
264
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Posted - 2016.06.07 22:44:17 -
[15] - Quote
At this juncture, I thought I'd offer a good, easy to make, fudge recipe:
Ingredients 2 cups white sugar 1/2 cup cocoa 1 cup milk 4 tablespoons butter 1 teaspoon vanilla extract
Butter a large dinner plate. Set aside.
Combine sugar, cocoa and milk in a medium saucepan. Stir to blend, then bring to a boil, stirring constantly. Reduce heat and simmer. Do not stir again.
Place candy thermometer in pan and cook until temperature reaches 238 degrees F (114 degrees C). If you are not using a thermometer, then cook until a drop of this mixture in a cup of cold water forms a soft ball (soft ball stage.) Feel the ball with your fingers to make sure it is the right consistency. It should flatten when pressed between your fingers.
Remove from heat. Add butter or margarine and vanilla extract. Beat with a wooden spoon until the fudge loses its sheen. Do not under beat. (You may add a 1/4 cup of chopped pecans before you stir...if you're SMART! Cherries if you're a girl.)
Pour onto prepared dinner plate and let cool. Cut into how you like it.
If we get chased by zombies, I'm tripping you.
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Hal Morsh
Hmmzor. Muffins of Mayhem
530
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Posted - 2016.06.08 00:06:46 -
[16] - Quote
Just use faction normal ammo like people suggested. It's what I do and it works fine. Your guns get the skill bonus anyways.
T2 ammo just brings your situational readiness up a bit.
Omar Alharazaad > Pretty much any time you blow something up in space it's bound to annoy someone or something.
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Professor Humbert
Project Fruit House Solyaris Chtonium
21
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Posted - 2016.06.08 02:22:02 -
[17] - Quote
Spike has tracking speed penalty that's why. |
Pandora Carrollon
Kingsman Tailors
346
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Posted - 2016.06.08 14:48:09 -
[18] - Quote
Professor Humbert wrote:Spike has tracking speed penalty that's why.
Yeah, and Javelin is a little short legged.
I think the Navy Antimatter is probably going to be the best solution, although I have been working on my close in tactics and if you can keep your ship at 6K-13K Javelin is devastating ammo.
Normally I try to stay at long range but I've always had problems with NPC battlecruisers which can match my range. So I changed over to killing the frigs/cruisers at long range then charging the BC's and hitting them with Javelin at intermediate short (6K-15K) and I was taking slightly more damage but blowing them up in about 1/3rd the time it took at long range so I took less damage over all.
So I'll say this much for that gap, it's forced me to try new things.
Be Positive GÇó Change yourself first, New Eden will come later GÇó EVE is Awesome GÇó CCP isn't the enemy GÇó Players are people too GÇó Where're the clothing blueprints GÇó Yeah, I'm still learning this game
-- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
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Galaxxis
Unicorn Rampage
131
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Posted - 2016.06.08 14:58:13 -
[19] - Quote
Cristl wrote:We are really due for a weapons and ammo balance pass by now.
Nope. Learn to use things properly. |
Josef Djugashvilis
3438
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Posted - 2016.06.08 20:14:12 -
[20] - Quote
Pix Severus wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Dear god, do NOT give CCP ideas. We're safe as long as no-one posts this to Reddit.
Sad, but true my dear fellow
This is not a signature.
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Pandora Carrollon
Kingsman Tailors
362
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Posted - 2016.06.14 00:05:09 -
[21] - Quote
Well, I got me some hyper expensive Federation Navy Antimatter rounds... yeesh... hyper expensive, and did some testing.
They are very nice rounds at medium short to short medium ranges... call it 10K to 30K. Closer than 10K the Javelin is the better round as it tracks better and just hammers down, literally. Brutal kinetic damage. From 25K up to 30K it's about a toss up with Spike but favors FNA on Frigates, Spike on Destroyers+.
All of this is just empirical impressions over a lot of poor Guriestas that didn't really volunteer for the tests. So, giving credit where it's due, thanks to my test subjects.
The ammo change out, if managed with target changes isn't so bad but it's a lot more work. Do-able with NPC's, but against other players probably suicidal. You'd be better off either choosing to kite or close which would automatically choose your ammo for you.
So tactically, it's probably best to build your railgun ship for Javelin range combat and put in scripts on your sensors that can let your also do long range sniping when you get the chance.
Thanks to everyone for your input on the thread, it's been very useful.
Be Positive GÇó Change yourself first, New Eden will come later GÇó EVE is Awesome GÇó CCP isn't the enemy GÇó Players are people too GÇó Where're the clothing blueprints GÇó Yeah, I'm still learning this game
-- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
6184
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Posted - 2016.06.16 21:14:46 -
[22] - Quote
Pandora Carrollon wrote:The ammo change out, if managed with target changes isn't so bad but it's a lot more work. Do-able with NPC's, but against other players probably suicidal. You'd be better off either choosing to kite or close which would automatically choose your ammo for you. Controlling the range in an engagement is required when using blasters and railguns.
If you want a more flexible range in an engagement, you want to look at projectiles and Minmatar ships, or Amarr ships and lasers (scorch crystals rock). |
Pandora Carrollon
Kingsman Tailors
362
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Posted - 2016.06.17 15:57:32 -
[23] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Pandora Carrollon wrote:The ammo change out, if managed with target changes isn't so bad but it's a lot more work. Do-able with NPC's, but against other players probably suicidal. You'd be better off either choosing to kite or close which would automatically choose your ammo for you. Controlling the range in an engagement is required when using blasters and railguns. If you want a more flexible range in an engagement, you want to look at projectiles and Minmatar ships, or Amarr ships and lasers (scorch crystals rock).
Yeah, but I'm trained in Small and Medium rails to 5 and rail specialization on them to use the Tech 2 variants for both. I'm working on large now.
The trick on smaller targets with larger rails is really about long range. At 50 km small target can't touch me and I vaporize them with a single Medium Rail volley.
Small rails I can use at any range up to the maximum the rail/ammo allows. Against larger ships you have to get in under their guns, almost to blaster range. So staying out of 'blaster' range, speed tanking, and using Javelin S ammo is quite the dance. If done gracefully, you can take down even PvE BC's as long as they don't have missles. If they have missles, you just run. If they start at very long range, you just run. David vs. Goliath is all about deciding to engage or flee. If the circumstances are right, you have a decent shot at winning, if not (to quote Monte Python) Run Awaaay!
Be Positive GÇó Change yourself first, New Eden will come later GÇó EVE is Awesome GÇó CCP isn't the enemy GÇó Players are people too GÇó Where're the clothing blueprints GÇó Yeah, I'm still learning this game
-- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
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Utremi Fasolasi
The Scope Gallente Federation
487
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Posted - 2016.06.18 04:42:05 -
[24] - Quote
Sustrai Aditua wrote:At this juncture, I thought I'd offer a good, easy to make, fudge recipe:
Ingredients 2 cups white sugar 1/2 cup cocoa 1 cup milk 4 tablespoons butter 1 teaspoon vanilla extract
Butter a large dinner plate. Set aside.
Combine sugar, cocoa and milk in a medium saucepan. Stir to blend, then bring to a boil, stirring constantly. Reduce heat and simmer. Do not stir again.
Place candy thermometer in pan and cook until temperature reaches 238 degrees F (114 degrees C). If you are not using a thermometer, then cook until a drop of this mixture in a cup of cold water forms a soft ball (soft ball stage.) Feel the ball with your fingers to make sure it is the right consistency. It should flatten when pressed between your fingers.
Remove from heat. Add butter or margarine and vanilla extract. Beat with a wooden spoon until the fudge loses its sheen. Do not under beat. (You may add a 1/4 cup of chopped pecans before you stir...if you're SMART! Cherries if you're a girl.)
Pour onto prepared dinner plate and let cool. Cut into how you like it.
I feel like this is missing an important ingredient. I canna put a finger on it. I guess just roll with it as is. |
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