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Karina Ivanovich
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
145
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Posted - 2016.06.11 06:29:40 -
[1] - Quote
Good and bad are one of the most commonly accepted false dichotomies. The concept of absolute right and wrong is in itself a classic example of a mind projection fallacy. In this case, that of a large portion of the world believing in moral absolutes, the false belief is not itself an image, but rather an illusory concept. For such a concept as absolute morals to exist the existence of circumstantial choice must be disproved or, as is commonly the case, ignored entirely. An individual choosing to ignore circumstantial variables can quite easily label something or some action as either black or white; with little room left to see any grey area.
However, it is indisputable that, depending on the situation at hand during any given scenario, people will and do react differently to outside stimuli. What do we really know of ourselves? If I ask who you really are; will you have an answer?
The question I pose to you all today is this. Why is it that we continue to paint the universe in blacks and whites? As capsuleers we have all killed thousands of people over our lifetimes. Be that for a great cause, or just to gain a marginal advantage in our lives, or to gain a little ISK. Are we truly capable of judging others, even other capsuleers, in the same light as ourselves. In any government or planetary settlement the actions most Capsuleers have taken, even in the name of things like honor, duty, freedom, country, or benevolence, would be seen as atrocities by anyone not guaranteed to reappear in a clone vat.
Governments can't control us. CONCORD can only hope to keep us in check. We run rampant over the explored galaxy. So much so that entire star nations use us a proxies for their wars. We are tools used by weak masters. And they realize this. But what choice do they have? What choice do we have?
We are the monsters that mothers warn their children about at night. We are the benevolent force of the galaxy. And most of us don't even care that every time we destroy a ship thousands of normals die. Every citadel that is lost means hundreds of thousands of civilian or non-capsuleer lives lost. We are a cancer, and there is no cure.
Some call me insane. If the universe is sane, then I embrace that label.
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Kolodi Ramal
Sanxing
63
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Posted - 2016.06.11 07:30:23 -
[2] - Quote
Karina Ivanovich wrote:As capsuleers we have all killed thousands of people over our lifetimes. Speak for yourself. |
Jason Galente
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
525
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Posted - 2016.06.11 07:42:28 -
[3] - Quote
You seem to have this odd obsession with being a monster. You're far too presumptuous.
The monsters mothers warn their children about are typically men and women who have lost touch with their humanity and view themselves as something different. The irony in your waxing poetic here is that you're reinforcing the very separation between "capsuleer" and "baseliner" that creates those sociopathic behavioral trends.
The question shouldn't be "Can we judge?" The question should be "Can we look at ourselves in the mirror after judging ourselves?"
If we concede the ability to judge, that also means we concede the ability to judge our past actions and improve if we don't like what we see.
Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole.
And this foundation must be defended.
At any cost
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Aradina Varren
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
24
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Posted - 2016.06.11 08:00:59 -
[4] - Quote
This is very melodramatic.
You're melodramatic. |
Sinjin Mokk
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
937
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Posted - 2016.06.11 14:07:07 -
[5] - Quote
Having had a military background, I got past this point a long time ago.
In the back of your head, you count the cost of the lives taken. But at the end of the day, if you make it home alive, if your crew makes it back and you're lucky enough to have completed your mission, it's enough.
When people stop holding the thought of lives taken in their subconscious is when they lose their humanity.
"Angels live, they never die,
Apart from us, behind the sky.
They're fading souls who've turned to ice,
So ashen white in paradise."
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Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
1234
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Posted - 2016.06.11 14:13:52 -
[6] - Quote
Because for alot of people painting with all the colors of the rainbow is too much work, that or they simply don't know that blue and yellow make green, meaning they just don't know anything but the base "colors" enough to really paint a picture.
At least that's my opinion on the question. |
James Syagrius
Reclamation Technologies
1302
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Posted - 2016.06.11 15:27:16 -
[7] - Quote
Karina Ivanovich wrote:Good and bad are one of the most commonly accepted false dichotomies. The concept of absolute right and wrong is in itself a classic example of a mind projection fallacy.. Only if your wrong.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
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Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
1180
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Posted - 2016.06.11 16:36:28 -
[8] - Quote
Karina Ivanovich wrote: If I ask who you really are; will you have an answer?
I am a Capsuleer. I steer ships by thinking about it. I blow shite up and kill lots of people in the process for no greater cause but lining my wallet with ISK and also because I can.
I also enjoy pulp fiction, coffee, tinkering with things, monologuing, ramble about nonsense and play holo-games.
As for people who call us cancer, I like them to be reminded that even before we showed up they were already merrily blowing each other up for arbitrary reasons or some fundamentalist reasons. Sure, if they think we are monsters I suppose they are right. However, we are monsters of their creation. Heck, they created us to be weapons initially even!
Capsuleers or no, we, as a species, are highly destructive arseholes with itchy trigger fingers. Us Capsuleers just happen to be arseholes who have the biggest guns and the luxury of firing it over and over and over again no matter how many times we are burnt in the process.
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
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Ayallah
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
505
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Posted - 2016.06.15 07:19:06 -
[9] - Quote
Innocence lies not in ignorance of our purpose, but in its boundless celebration. ...No matter how dark its nature or vast the ocean of our disquiet. |
Arkoth 24
Phayder
152
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Posted - 2016.06.15 09:31:55 -
[10] - Quote
So confident. So proud. Still so naive.
You just repeat all the lies they gave you. An ultimate weapon? A pre-born killer? A monster?
An another module for a ship. A puppet. A fool.
And still desperately holding on to what you call your humanity. Your personality. Your memories stolen from the dead. The life you never had.
You're searching for answers. For a purpose. For a reason.
Will you be ready for 'em? |
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Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
1183
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Posted - 2016.06.15 11:31:39 -
[11] - Quote
Arkoth 24 wrote:So confident. So proud. Still so naive.
You just repeat all the lies they gave you. An ultimate weapon? A pre-born killer? A monster?
An another module for a ship. A puppet. A fool.
And still desperately holding on to what you call your humanity. Your personality. Your memories stolen from the dead. The life you never had.
You're searching for answers. For a purpose. For a reason.
Will you be ready for 'em?
If you are a puppet then who holds the strings?
And there is no rule against a module suddenly deciding that it wants to go take a break and detaches itself from the ship to grow some...Dominixes*. The moment said module develops self-awareness, the very moment it starts asking existential questions and ponders about whether Dominixes* are best baked or boiled, it has become a sentient entity and should be treated as such.
And if you have an answer to what we are, stop being an edgy trenchcoated Gallentean teenager with terrible hairstyle and too much eyeliner and just spit it out.
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
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Lord Kailethre
Oruze Cruise White Stag Exit Bag
294
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Posted - 2016.06.15 12:31:28 -
[12] - Quote
You seem to be projecting your own false dichotomy of innocence and guilt upon capsuleers. In a sense no one is truly innocent nor guilty, there are varying degrees. A capsuleer who 'murders' thousands of crewmen aboard a Guristas battleship is perhaps just as guilty as the pirates are, for depriving families of their mothers and fathers, sons and daughters; but the pirates themselves do the same and perhaps in destroying this ship the capsuleer has saved more lives.
You ask if we are capable of judging others or ourselves and yet you do that very thing in your initial supposition. |
Aradina Varren
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
31
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Posted - 2016.06.15 13:32:22 -
[13] - Quote
This is still very melodramatic.
You're all very melodramatic. |
Yarosara Ruil
374
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Posted - 2016.06.15 15:29:36 -
[14] - Quote
From my point of view, the Horde are evil. |
Erika Wallker
Rogue Clones Yulai Federation
6
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Posted - 2016.06.15 17:32:00 -
[15] - Quote
Yes I have killed many in my lifetime... But I can sleep at night knowing that those that I killed were enemies and wanted to hurt me or my friends. This lets me sleep at night.
Now I only kill sworn enemies of the Providence region, and only those that have been marked Kill on sight for crimes against us.
Amarr Victor!
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Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
1915
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Posted - 2016.06.15 18:15:27 -
[16] - Quote
A nice cup of tea helps me sleep at night... Also the comfortable bed doesn't hurt.
A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
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Jason Galente
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
542
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Posted - 2016.06.15 20:01:48 -
[17] - Quote
Yarosara Ruil wrote:From my point of view, the Horde are evil.
Well then you are lost!
Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole.
And this foundation must be defended.
At any cost
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Tristan Valentina
Moira. Villore Accords
43
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Posted - 2016.06.15 21:53:05 -
[18] - Quote
Yep to normal people we are monsters. We are the demigods who control the black endless void. We are so far above them that if they even try and contimplate our power they would go insane.
But in this world there are things that take demigods to stop. We are the monsters that humanity made to fight the monsters out here in the void. Let's just hope we are all enough monster to never lose to monsters that have yet to show themselves.
Tristan |
Yarosara Ruil
375
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Posted - 2016.06.15 22:52:07 -
[19] - Quote
I HATE YOU! |
Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
1186
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Posted - 2016.06.16 01:28:21 -
[20] - Quote
Lord Kailethre wrote:You seem to be projecting your own false dichotomy of innocence and guilt upon capsuleers. In a sense no one is truly innocent nor guilty, there are varying degrees. A capsuleer who 'murders' thousands of crewmen aboard a Guristas battleship is perhaps just as guilty as the pirates are, for depriving families of their mothers and fathers, sons and daughters; but the pirates themselves do the same and perhaps in destroying this ship the capsuleer has saved more lives.
You ask if we are capable of judging others or ourselves and yet you do that very thing in your initial supposition.
Ultimately, the only lives we should be held responsible for are the lives of the crew on our own ships. That other ship has its own captain who is responsible for his or her own crew. If that other ship explodes, whatever happened to the crew of that ship isn't our problem.
I am not about to start writing condolence letters for the crew of that other ship which I had shot to pieces. That's the job of that other ship's captain.
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
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Kolodi Ramal
Sanxing
75
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Posted - 2016.06.16 02:49:26 -
[21] - Quote
Tristan Valentina wrote:Yep to normal people we are monsters. We are the demigods who control the black endless void. We are so far above them that if they even try and contimplate our power they would go insane. It's only been 6 years since you were a baseliner. And you forgot already that we - excuse me, they - talk about capsuleers a lot and don't go insane? Yes, that includes thinking about the power capsuleers have. |
Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
1187
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Posted - 2016.06.16 02:58:03 -
[22] - Quote
Kolodi Ramal wrote:Tristan Valentina wrote:Yep to normal people we are monsters. We are the demigods who control the black endless void. We are so far above them that if they even try and contimplate our power they would go insane. It's only been 6 years since you were a baseliner. And you forgot already that we - excuse me, they - talk about capsuleers a lot and don't go insane? Yes, that includes thinking about the power capsuleers have.
Not to mention the Scope broadcast wars that capsuleers wage to the general public. If the baseliner public can go insane just thinking about us blowing the heck out of each other and leave debris fields the size of an asteroid belt, every baseliner in the cluster will probably be dancing around some piece of a wreck going "Ia! Ia!" for almost a decade by now.
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
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Karina Ivanovich
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
151
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Posted - 2016.06.16 05:18:24 -
[23] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote:Lord Kailethre wrote:You seem to be projecting your own false dichotomy of innocence and guilt upon capsuleers. In a sense no one is truly innocent nor guilty, there are varying degrees. A capsuleer who 'murders' thousands of crewmen aboard a Guristas battleship is perhaps just as guilty as the pirates are, for depriving families of their mothers and fathers, sons and daughters; but the pirates themselves do the same and perhaps in destroying this ship the capsuleer has saved more lives.
You ask if we are capable of judging others or ourselves and yet you do that very thing in your initial supposition. Ultimately, the only lives we should be held responsible for are the lives of the crew on our own ships. That other ship has her own captain who is responsible for his or her own crew. If that other ship explodes, whatever happened to the crew of that ship isn't our problem. I am not about to start writing condolence letters for the crew of that other ship which I had shot to pieces. That's the job of that other ship's captain.
Oh, I was just pointing this out for discussion. I am quite comfortable being the monster. For those I care about I am a stalwart and trustworthy individual. For those I call foe, I will unleash all the contempt I hold for humanity onto you.
The most simple way to solve problems is death. If the problem is dead; you will live.
Some call me insane. If the universe is sane, then I embrace that label.
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Tristan Valentina
Moira. Villore Accords
43
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Posted - 2016.06.16 07:11:21 -
[24] - Quote
Kolodi Ramal wrote:Tristan Valentina wrote:Yep to normal people we are monsters. We are the demigods who control the black endless void. We are so far above them that if they even try and contimplate our power they would go insane. It's only been 6 years since you were a baseliner. And you forgot already that we - excuse me, they - talk about capsuleers a lot and don't go insane? Yes, that includes thinking about the power capsuleers have.
Yes they definitely talk about Capsuleers all the time. How many of those conversations do you remember involving snuffing out thousands of lives in 10 minutes? I just did that 4 times in an hour. They talk about us but they definitely do not understand us. You know much in the same way one can speak of a god but not understand the gods creations.
Insane would be not realizing that you have surpassed them.
Tristan
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Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
1190
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Posted - 2016.06.16 08:17:25 -
[25] - Quote
Tristan Valentina wrote:Kolodi Ramal wrote:Tristan Valentina wrote:Yep to normal people we are monsters. We are the demigods who control the black endless void. We are so far above them that if they even try and contimplate our power they would go insane. It's only been 6 years since you were a baseliner. And you forgot already that we - excuse me, they - talk about capsuleers a lot and don't go insane? Yes, that includes thinking about the power capsuleers have. Yes they definitely talk about Capsuleers all the time. How many of those conversations do you remember involving snuffing out thousands of lives in 10 minutes? I just did that 4 times in an hour. They talk about us but they definitely do not understand us. You know much in the same way one can speak of a god but not understand the gods creations. Insane would be not realizing that you have surpassed them. Tristan
They won't go insane from that at all. Look, even before Capsuleers exist, we already have warlords who happily march millions of folks into meat grinders where people die by dozens per minute. The general public won't understand why said warlords will march so many people off to their death in the name of ambition or resources or whatever but they certainly do not go mad about it.
Us Capsuleers are quite similar in that respect, except we are very much capable of causing hundreds of deaths per minute. It's not exactly that incomprehensible a scale for a baseliner to imagine. What the baseliner is not going to understand is why we thought that killing that many people at such scale is fine, if some of us thought it is fine with causing that many deaths in such a short time span.
They know very well what we are. We are transhumans who cheat death and wield war machines of such terrifying power using them would have been considered a war crime by the Federation a millennial ago. Will the revelation drive them mad? Nope. It has never driven them mad. They just put us on the same level as those ruthless warlords.
By the way, I think you need to lose that God Complex.
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
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Kolodi Ramal
Sanxing
76
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Posted - 2016.06.16 09:28:50 -
[26] - Quote
Tristan Valentina wrote:Yes they definitely talk about Capsuleers all the time. How many of those conversations do you remember involving snuffing out thousands of lives in 10 minutes? I just did that 4 times in an hour. Plenty. Mr. Egivand explained things well. |
Tristan Valentina
Moira. Villore Accords
43
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Posted - 2016.06.16 15:15:07 -
[27] - Quote
God complex, I wish. Perhaps then I would not be so scared of the things that are coming. The dark gods have already claimed an empress, and even our transhuman bodies where not enough to save her. I certainly do not have a god complex Mr Egivand, I just understand the step we as Capsuleers have taken that make us more then human. There are things far scarier then us in space.
I would be very interested with where you found your information on the activities of Capsuleers having never driven baseliners mad. I do quite a bit of recovery work for crew in the war zone, Mad would be an excellent way of describing the mind state of many Caldari Destroyer captains who just watched there warships turn into dust around them. You know once it sinks in that his government sent him to his death, and that he never really stood any chance.
TrIstan |
Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
1193
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Posted - 2016.06.16 15:23:30 -
[28] - Quote
Tristan Valentina wrote:God complex, I wish. Perhaps then I would not be so scared of the things that are coming. The dark gods have already claimed an empress, and even our transhuman bodies where not enough to save her. I certainly do not have a god complex Mr Egivand, I just understand the step we as Capsuleers have taken that make us more then human. There are things far scarier then us in space.
I would be very interested with where you found your information on the activities of Capsuleers having never driven baseliners mad. I do quite a bit of recovery work for crew in the war zone, Mad would be an excellent way of describing the mind state of many Caldari Destroyer captains who just watched there warships turn into dust around them. You know once it sinks in that his government sent him to his death, and that he never really stood any chance.
TrIstan
Driven made by immense trauma. Any warlord or sufficiently cruel soldier is capable of doing that to the victims. This is not something unique to Capsuleer activity. I take it you had never gone into colonies brutalised by Blood Raider baseliner soldiers before, have you?Or perhaps rescue colonists who had witnessed the decimation of their neighbours by the hands of Angel Cartel enforcers over the course of a few days in the low sec areas.
This is a story as old as mankind itself. You do not need to be a capsuleer to drive baseliners mad. You just need to be an exceptionally cruel and ruthless bastard with equally cruel and ruthless minions to do your bidding. That or a really powerful large-scale weapon. Or a number of them. Artillery, even something as primitive as a hand-held mortar, is capable of giving just about anyone on the receiving end nightmares for the rest of their lives.
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
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Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
1917
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Posted - 2016.06.16 15:31:14 -
[29] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote: Artillery, even something as primitive as a hand-held mortar, is capable of giving just about anyone on the receiving end nightmares for the rest of their lives. A well applied stick would do the job.... hell, you could achieve that goal with your bare hands.
A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
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Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
1193
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Posted - 2016.06.16 15:38:04 -
[30] - Quote
I will also have you know that I regularly dine in the same canteen as my staff. The sight of me munching on flatbread and filling up my thermos with more coffee hasn't driven any of them mad yet.
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
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