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Old Pervert
Perkone Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2016.06.14 15:48:03 -
[1] - Quote
I'll preface this by saying this is about Falcons. Yes I have one, no I haven't lost it yet. But... I've only flown it on one fleet op, after which I decided the 250m isk (a lot for me, sadly) was not worth risking in the circumstances.
I'll also say this isn't meant to be about ECM... inherently that will come up, because... Falcon. The intent however is to address the disparities between the Falcon and other Force Recon ships.
This thread is about the staying power of a Falcon, relative to other Force Recon ships.
To start, lets get it out of the way. ECM, Painting, Disruption, RSD, and Neuts are all different and have their place. Relying on your EWAR for tank is all fine and well, except when your tank is RNG. Would be like asking combat ships if they'd be okay with their resistance mods working 50% of the time.
"The" mechanic that ECM uses we can just assume is something balanced, and as 100% as RSD, TD, and Neuting. I don't know what it is and this thread isn't meant to be about what could fix ECM. Heck maybe you think ECM is just fine the way it is. Perhaps it is.
The Falcon, regardless of ECM, is not okay the way it is. Not relative to other force recons.
Arazu - RSD - Fitting two scripted RSDs will reduce the target's range to a pittance of what it was. With just 3 damps, all snipers are effectively worthless. Remaining modules can go towards dps, tank, and tackle.
Pilgrim - neuting - Perhaps one of the most effective (because cap is life...) the Pilgrim can fit neuts in its high slots, leaving lots of room in mid and low for tank, tackle, and dps. Can bring many ships to their knees very quickly.
Rapier - Paint and Web - High utility, good for dealing with kitey ships (assuming you can catch them). Again, 2 or 3 mid slots and the rest can go to tank, tackle, and dps. Or they can fit bonused weapon disruptors for more utility.
Falcon - ECM - 100% bricks ships that it lays it's sights on. If the jams land. If they don't, they are 100% unaffected. 3 Racial jammers is all fine and well (assuming you know what you'll be fighting), however you must also devote low slots and rigs towards amplifying the strength or you'll miss far more often than you land. More often than not you must rainbow fit your jammers. No tank, no dps, no tackle.
The problem here is that all of the other force recons can fit tank. The Falcon cannot. All of the other force recons have some guaranteed utility. The Falcon does not.
All of these ships have niche roles. The problem is a Falcon cannot fill its role, because as soon as you uncloak, you get the distinct privilege of being primary. Since you have no tank, if you aren't pre-aligned (which you should be...) you get blapped before logi can do anything to help. I like attention, and I have no problems losing a ship. I'd rather do something with that ship before I get volleyed however.
Suggestions: 1) Do away with racial jammers. Burst Jammers are a thing and they are not racial. Either that or add racial variants for other EWAR, to balance out all the force/combat recons (I can hear those pilots screaming NO already). 2) Let Falcons fit some tank by giving ECM a lower effect and a higher chance to apply that effect (such as 100%).
Again, this is not meant to be a discussion about how to fix ECM. I recognize the topic goes hand in hand with Falcons, and that it is relevant to letting the Falcon fix tank. It is meant to be about balancing Falcons with other Force Recons.
The same arguments would apply to the Rook and Combat Recons, however the Rook can be used as a straight combat ship with decent effectiveness, so I won't complain about that ship. |
Frostys Virpio
Yet another corpdot.
2916
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Posted - 2016.06.14 17:13:38 -
[2] - Quote
It's not about ECM but both your fix idea are changing how ECM...
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4471
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Posted - 2016.06.14 17:17:55 -
[3] - Quote
Not everything is a fleet ship, you know that right? |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3301
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Posted - 2016.06.14 19:25:11 -
[4] - Quote
I'd prefer to go the way of scripts as well, then give them a 40-60 second reload time. Or do away with racial jammers completely. The best gameplay i get from racial jammers is looking up killboard stats before i fit my ecm ship.
One issue with jams is that some ships have such a low sensor str that you can perma jam them with one racial jammer. Others have a sensor str so high it takes three racial jammers to get one expected jam. So id like the sensor str of ships to be brought closer together. Eccm is also pretty powerful and could be nerfed.
The falcon itself? No complaints here about lack of tank. I wish it had missile hardpoints though and i think the ecm bonus of the caldari recons over shadows the scorpion a bit.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
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Old Pervert
Perkone Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2016.06.14 19:57:42 -
[5] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:It's not about ECM but both your fix idea are changing how ECM...
I should have been a bit more specific I guess. I know that people love ECM (in that they either love to use it or love to hate it). I know that there's a frothy argument about whether ECM is broken or not.
The intent was not to start another ECM fight, but rather to showcase that the Falcon currently suffers due to ECM's implementation. As acknowledged in my OP, the reason the Falcon cannot fit a tank is because it has to devote so many modules to ECM; by necessity ECM needs to change to allow that to change.
Danika Princip wrote:Not everything is a fleet ship, you know that right?
Right, not a fleet ship. Certainly not a solo ship either though. The other force recons can certainly do solo pvp, and they are often effectively used in fleet ops. I merely seek to see a place for Falcons in with the other ships of their class. It feels to me like CCP often encourages large fleet battles over 1v1 or small gank groups.
Daichi Yamato wrote: The falcon itself? No complaints here about lack of tank. I wish it had missile hardpoints though and i think the ecm bonus of the caldari recons over shadows the scorpion a bit.
I agree that some missiles would be in better keeping with Caldari ships, especially since they are not going to use cap, which is pretty important for an ECM boat. Do you not feel that a lack of buffer/active tank should not warrant at least a reliable ewar tank? |
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
16319
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Posted - 2016.06.14 20:07:53 -
[6] - Quote
Small gang , you know that type of group somewhere between "solo" and fleet.
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Old Pervert
Perkone Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2016.06.14 20:16:19 -
[7] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Small gang , you know that type of group somewhere between "solo" and fleet.
Old Pervert wrote:It is meant to be about balancing Falcons with other Force Recons.
Old Pervert wrote:The other force recons can certainly do solo pvp, and they are often effectively used in fleet ops. I merely seek to see a place for Falcons in with the other ships of their class
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3301
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Posted - 2016.06.14 21:07:36 -
[8] - Quote
Making ecm scriptable and bringing the sensor str of ships closer together will go a long way to making ecm more consistent and therefore more reliable.
Plus, i put a 1600mm plate in my falcons. It's not bad.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
16320
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Posted - 2016.06.14 21:51:00 -
[9] - Quote
Yeah i have one of those too.
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2815
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Posted - 2016.06.17 05:10:10 -
[10] - Quote
As someone who flies primarily e-war I can say this.
You need more experience with ecm before making a thread like this. Unlike the other forms of ewar ecm tasks a huge amount of pilot skill. Other forms of ewar ate closer to the same strategies as dps ships (lock and shoot) ecm is much more akin to logistics knowing when to activate how many to activate and how long to keep it going. Learn to fly the falcon and you will see just how powerful it is.
I'm also not sure you are using it in the right situation. Anytime you would need to fit rainbow toy should be using a rook.falcons should almost exclusively be used in a blops fleet where you will know exactly what jams you need.
Also with ecm ships despite what ppl will tell you going full ecm in the mids is not the only valid tactic. In fact both the rook and falcon can get pretty good tanks even with 2ecm mods. Doing this has the added advantage of drawing all of the enemy's fire for far longer than they should be shooting you simply do to the fear factor of ecm.
Using an arazu or other damp ship helps with a low ecm fit as they play off each other immensely well
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slumbers
State War Academy Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2016.06.17 08:12:30 -
[11] - Quote
Ok, then train for another Recon that works for you and your gameplay. Falcons are all about breaking lock. Even in fleet ops, if it can jam logis for 1 cycle, those logis are dead.
ECM too stronk a mechanic already as is. Falcons are all about prepositioning or fielding at proper distances. If you cannot afford losing a Falcon, get a griffin / kitsune. These are nasty ships too |
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
3173
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Posted - 2016.06.17 14:34:42 -
[12] - Quote
why you need tank if your enemies cant lock you use a rook instead its pretty fun solo
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Old Pervert
Perkone Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2016.06.17 15:41:47 -
[13] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:As someone who flies primarily e-war I can say this.
You need more experience with ecm before making a thread like this.
I fly blackbirds and griffins every chance I get :) Just not so keen to get blapped until the ship has at least lost its "new ship smell".
I will experiment with fitting fewer ECM modules, our corp does occasionally do blops fleets, so I'd definitely have time to do a mobile refit prior to jumping in. In the circumstances though, extra tank wouldn't be needed for blops cause you'll be blapping something which generally doesn't have support. In that case, jamming them out makes more sense.
My thoughts lie more towards fleet ops. But as you and others have said... don't use them for fleet ops. Kinda makes me sad. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
2816
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Posted - 2016.06.18 02:27:28 -
[14] - Quote
Old Pervert wrote: My thoughts lie more towards fleet ops. But as you and others have said... don't use them for fleet ops. Kinda makes me sad.
... why does it make you sad that is what a rook is for....
Citadel worm hole tax
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Roenok Baalnorn
Sadistically Sinister
103
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Posted - 2016.06.18 05:44:12 -
[15] - Quote
I remember when falcons were Overpowered. You could sit at 80 plus KM and perma jam 2-3 ships with it. People complained about it. So they nerfed ECM and retooled the falcon and rook. The rook was suppose to be a brawler and the falcon was suppose to be a heavy jammer with a paper tank was the idea.
OP: your complaint about how ECM is not inline with other ewar is not taking into account that other ewar makes you less effective, ECM completely nullifies you in a fight. Even if you get 1 jam cycle you take someone out of a fight for 20 plus seconds. You take out a critical ship such as a logi and it could sway the battle.
Also i dont think you are properly fitting. As it was mentioned a rainbow fit isnt always the best tactic. In fact being a jack of all jams makes you a master of none. If you armor tank it you can get a 35k omni tank and can perma jam 2-3 ships which is perfectly fine. And honestly if you are flying anything but DPS you will likely have a short lifespan in any engagements if it goes south for your side. Thats what SRPs are for. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1256
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Posted - 2016.06.18 06:15:52 -
[16] - Quote
slumbers wrote:...ECM too stronk a mechanic already as is. Falcons are all about prepositioning or fielding at proper distances. If you cannot afford losing a Falcon, get a griffin / kitsune. These are nasty ships too
No, they are not - you are.
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Old Pervert
Perkone Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2016.06.20 15:30:33 -
[17] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Old Pervert wrote: My thoughts lie more towards fleet ops. But as you and others have said... don't use them for fleet ops. Kinda makes me sad.
... why does it make you sad that is what a rook is for....
The rook has the same issue. You can fit ECM or tank. Granted you can fit less ECM and "some" tank, perhaps solid buffer (I'll claim ignorance as I've never actually flown a Rook), but ECM and tank are again an either/or unless you want useless ECM or a useless tank.
ECM requires many different modules to be effective.
Quote:Also i dont think you are properly fitting. As it was mentioned a rainbow fit isnt always the best tactic. In fact being a jack of all jams makes you a master of none. If you armor tank it you can get a 35k omni tank and can perma jam 2-3 ships which is perfectly fine. And honestly if you are flying anything but DPS you will likely have a short lifespan in any engagements if it goes south for your side. Thats what SRPs are for When you're in small group, you don't really know what you'll be fighting. Heck maybe you'll be the one that runs into a gate camp.
If you're doing blops and you have time to do a refit before you jump in, sure it makes sense to stack a racial. But what if you don't know what race you'll be fighting?
Honestly, looking at it, I'd rather have an XLASB over a big plate; those signal dispersion amps are critical to landing jams from my own limited experience. |
Soldarius
O C C U P Y Test Alliance Please Ignore
1505
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Posted - 2016.06.20 17:52:54 -
[18] - Quote
ECM has been nerfed over and over again, both directly and indirectly. I'm not surprised to see some folks complaining that Falcon just is not worth it anymore.
We used to see recons in Alliance Tournament all the time. Now casters are like "lol. What is that Falcon doing there? Why would they bring that when they can just bring the cheaper T1 version? What a waste of points."
I think the only exception is the Huginn. We still see those from time to time because 67km webs are strong.
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
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