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Ageanal Olerie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
16
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Posted - 2016.06.15 23:29:20 -
[1] - Quote
Just some quick thoughts regradng the War Dec system in the era of citadels. This is more brainstorming than fully fleshed out. Something for CCP, CSM, and the community to consider.
I would like to see a system that would only allow declaring war on those corporations / alliances which have a Citadel.
Also the attacker must have a citadel as well. Their citadel should be within a certain number of jumps distance from the corporation citadel they are declaring war against. (Perhaps the requirement could be within the same region.)
The attacker could attack any sized corporation / allaince, however the defender could ally themselves with any other corporations / allainces up to the number of players which are in the attacking corporation / alliance. Perhaps with up to 5% over total for the defenders.
The war would end at a predetermined time (unless continued payment is made - though perhaps this can be revisited as well), or whenever either side's citadel is destroyed.
The War Dec timers could be adjusted or perhaps the Citadel invulnerability timers could be adjusted for those who are in a war with one another to fit better with the War Dec timer.
If the winning side decides within 24 hours to put up a citadel in the system where they destroyed thier opponent's citadel then the losing side cannot put up a citadel within 5 jumps of it for at least one week.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3298
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Posted - 2016.06.15 23:39:38 -
[2] - Quote
Why are we playing forced tower defence? The only issue that needs fixing is how little a Citadel adds as a force multiplier for a defence fleet in high sec (& low to some degree though not as bad). Ok, and Locator agents should show online status when run so it's possible to hunt your target also. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3304
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Posted - 2016.06.15 23:52:06 -
[3] - Quote
Stopped reading when you said you can only dec against targets with citadels.
Holy **** no.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Iain Cariaba
3106
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Posted - 2016.06.16 00:17:15 -
[4] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Stopped reading when you said you can only dec against targets with citadels.
Holy **** no. This.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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Ageanal Olerie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
16
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Posted - 2016.06.16 00:44:56 -
[5] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Stopped reading when you said you can only dec against targets with citadels.
Holy **** no.
How is this a problem for you? |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Escalating Entropy
10046
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Posted - 2016.06.16 00:52:44 -
[6] - Quote
Ageanal Olerie wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:Stopped reading when you said you can only dec against targets with citadels.
Holy **** no. How is this a problem for you? It is a problem for the game at large.
Your idea effectively makes anyone who doesn't put up a citadel immune to anything but suicide ganking.
How did you Veterans start?
The Mustache and Beard Thread
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Ageanal Olerie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
16
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Posted - 2016.06.16 00:59:44 -
[7] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Ageanal Olerie wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:Stopped reading when you said you can only dec against targets with citadels.
Holy **** no. How is this a problem for you? It is a problem for the game at large. Your idea effectively makes anyone who doesn't put up a citadel immune to anything but suicide ganking.
And.... ?
How is this a problem for you? Or the game?
Just about every corportion (outside of very small ones) aspires to put up a citadel or one of the other upcoming structures.
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Escalating Entropy
10047
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Posted - 2016.06.16 01:24:49 -
[8] - Quote
Ageanal Olerie wrote:How is this a problem for you? Or the game? I prevents me (or others like me) from "legally" attacking an enemy supply line. And/or achieving dominance over people who are moving into my area. And/or punishing someone who pisses me off. And/or attack people because I can.
Ageanal Olerie wrote:Just about every corportion (outside of very small ones) aspires to put up a citadel or one of the other upcoming structures. Except people who want to avoid war at any and all costs... but want all the benefits of being in a corporation.
Bottom line; you are adding on a very, very high condition (that is purely optional) to attack someone. Meanwhile, your are giving effective immunity to anyone who is trying to avoid aggression while simultaneously giving them benefits of being of being in a corporation.
To be perfectly honest... it should be made clear to everyone that making and being in a corporation is a privilege, not a right. If you do not have the ability to defend your corporation against your average war dec (or you have the standard procedure of going AFK for a week or so)... you should not be in a corporation.
So here is my counter proposal:
You can only declare war on a corporation if both the aggressor and defender have citadels. HOWEVER...
- making a corporation requires you to sink a flat fee of 50-100 million ISK (to make "dissolving" a corporation somewhat costly, but won't remove a player's ability to do so)
- CONCORD will apply a tax of 11% on all activities and transactions on every member in the corporation (for war dec immunity) ------ the tax is waived when the corporation puts up a citadel.
Oh... and NPC corps have their taxes increased to 15%... which will be applied to any and all activities and transactions of the player.
How did you Veterans start?
The Mustache and Beard Thread
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3305
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Posted - 2016.06.16 01:51:35 -
[9] - Quote
Um no. Not every corp aspires to put up a citadel. My corp doesn't. We may consider negotiating the use of one or more. Maybe...
Under your idea: - We'd have pocos, but you couldn't dec us to attack them. - We'd use citadels, but because we never own one we could never be attacked ourselves. - If you destroy the citadel we are using, we just negotiate the use of another citadel. No big loss for us. - We'd have drill platforms, observatories and industrial arrays, but you couldn't dec us to attack them. - We would be obnoxious neighbours by taking all the local resources but you couldn't attack us.
Decs are about more than attacking people for their assets. And corps provide more benefits than deploying assets.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Ageanal Olerie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
16
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Posted - 2016.06.16 02:37:05 -
[10] - Quote
. . . So attack the enemy. They can't attack your supply lines either. Fair game.
Quote:And/or achieving dominance over people who are moving into my area. If you have a citadel and they don't you'll have dominance over anyone else in the area. And if they try to put up a citadel you can dominate them by disallowing them to. If they use other citadels you declare war on those who allow them to use their citadel. Perhap there could even be some sort of blockade mechanic, where say anyone who enters a citadel that is under a War Dec (or perhaps uses a service at that citadel) become a valid war target for a period of time. Say an hour or a day.
Quote:And/or punishing someone who pisses me off. I'm sure you'll find a way. But really do you NEED to attack everyone who pisses you off? Do you experience a lot of road rage? Fact of the matter is, the current system is used FAR more often by those who wish to harass annoy grief and ****-off others, then it is used to retaliate against someone who's pissed them off.
Quote:And/or attack people because I can. That's what Low, Null, and WH space is for.
Quote:Except people who want to avoid war at any and all costs... but want all the benefits of being in a corporation.
Bottom line; you are adding on a very, very high condition (that is purely optional) to attack someone. Meanwhile, your are giving effective immunity to anyone who is trying to avoid aggression while simultaneously giving them benefits of being of being in a corporation.
To be perfectly honest... it should be made clear to everyone that making and being in a corporation is a privilege, not a right. If you do not have the ability to defend your corporation against your average war dec (or you have the standard procedure of going AFK for a week or so)... you should not be in a corporation. This attitude needs to change. People join MMO's to engage in the community. Corporations are Eve's version of guilds, kinships, etc... And people crave that in an MMO. If a segment of the player base is denied that and the accoutrements of being in a corporation because they also dislike the mechanic which allows them to be griefed and harassed with relative ease, then they are not going to stick around. Hence, it's important to get people into player corporations. The benefits of citadels and other upcoming structures are going to be very appealing to most corporations and I'd say most players are going to want to have their corporation build such things or they may move to a corporation which does.
Quote:So here is my counter proposal:
You can only declare war on a corporation if both the aggressor and defender have citadels. HOWEVER...
- making a corporation requires you to sink a flat fee of 50-100 million ISK (to make "dissolving" a corporation somewhat costly, but won't remove a player's ability to do so)
- CONCORD will apply a tax of 11% on all activities and transactions on every member in the corporation (for war dec immunity) ------ the tax is waived when the corporation puts up a citadel.
Oh... and NPC corps have their taxes increased to 15%... which will be applied to any and all activities and transactions of the player.
I can see some merit in these proposals. Though I think the numbers ought to be tweaked, toward the less punative side. |
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Ageanal Olerie
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
16
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Posted - 2016.06.16 02:55:57 -
[11] - Quote
While were at it, here are some MORE controversial ideas for changes to War Decs.
Mining ships while in the system where the owning corp's citadel exists are OFF LIMITS and will still receive CONCORD protection if they are at an asteroid belt or an NPC station. If they begin to target any ship of a War Target they become a valid war target. (Mining ships turn off target back).
Industrial ships / cargo ships, are off limits while at any gates or NPC stations (even outside of their systems) and will still recieve the same CONCORD protection they would normally receive, except in any systems where their enemy posses a citadel.
A new siege structure can be placed in the war target's system (on grid with the citadel) to negate these rules. However the war target can attack and destroy siege structures. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
2141
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Posted - 2016.06.16 04:23:24 -
[12] - Quote
I'm warming up to the idea that you have to have a citadel in spec to declare a war or provide an assist in one. I'm not seeing a down side to that.
Interesting to be sure. |
darkneko
Black Cat mining Inc. Khione's Dominion
22
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Posted - 2016.06.16 05:21:00 -
[13] - Quote
While I don't like every idea here there are some interesting ones and some that made me laugh.
Another would be that if you declared a war mutual neither side has to pay fees for it and the war doesn't end until one corp surrendered which would cost a fee. |
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4473
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Posted - 2016.06.16 06:14:48 -
[14] - Quote
So I could have a hundred pocos, fifty pos, and a gaggle of the new stuff coming later in the year, never lift a finger to defend any of them and still remain completely untouchable because I don't have a citadel?
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
2555
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Posted - 2016.06.16 06:31:28 -
[15] - Quote
Ageanal Olerie wrote:
Just some quick thoughts regradng the War Dec system in the era of citadels. This is more brainstorming than fully fleshed out. Something for CCP, CSM, and the community to consider.
I would like to see a system that would only allow declaring war on those corporations / alliances which have a Citadel.
Also the attacker must have a citadel as well. Their citadel should be within a certain number of jumps distance from the corporation citadel they are declaring war against. (Perhaps the requirement could be within the same region.)
The attacker could attack any sized corporation / allaince, however the defender could ally themselves with any other corporations / allainces up to the number of players which are in the attacking corporation / alliance. Perhaps with up to 5% over total for the defenders.
The war would end at a predetermined time (unless continued payment is made - though perhaps this can be revisited as well), or whenever either side's citadel is destroyed.
You are a little premature as the ecosystem for the new structures is just getting started. There are many more classes of structures to be released, and iterations done on Citadels, before we see the impacts these have on the game.
But in principle, I don't have an issue with this (you do mean all structures, not just citadels right?) with several caveats. The main one being that being in a structure-less corporation should be equivalent to being in the NPC corp. All corporation benefits should be tied to structures, and all unique corporation benefits (like taxes, declaring war and maybe shared hangers) should be tied to owning your own structures. You should only be able to share/rent out services currently available at NPC stations while owning a structure would provide the most desirable bonuses, and hopefully in the future, additional bonuses to corp members to make players want to use them. Structure-less corps would be indistinguishable from the NPC corps then aside from a name, chat channel and logo and thus equivalent to what we have now.
The second major caveat is that the war itself is not tied to any structures. This has been hashed out to death, but giving one side a way out to make their structures invulnerable is way too powerful tool for the largest entities in the game who can just brute force their way out of any war removing any responsibility for them to actually defend their own structures in highsec. Besides, in an age where structure bashing takes over 7 days, it would be impossible under the current mechanics to end a war early and I don't expect that to change for the remaining structures. If you lose your war-enabling structure, you can no longer declare any further wars of course (and if that was your last structure you are also immune to wars when the current wars run out) without deploying another war-enabling structure.
I won't comment on your CONCORD-enabling tweaks as they are inane - the game needs less arcane rules on highsec aggression not more. To that end, another option is to just remove wars altogether and make all structures (and eventually capital ships) attack-able in highsec but generate a suspect flag. This is a more drastic change that some CCP devs have been bandying about, but would enable content to develop more naturally instead of through the artificial gate of the war declaration mechanic. That is probably a discussion for another thread though.
But back to the OP. So while I do sympathize with your desire for a social corp, turning wars into a silly and contrived game of capture the flag isn't going to make them better, but rather would just kill them. However, I do see some possibility to use structure-based wars if we also have structure-based corps. Remember though, you are intended to have to defend your stuff and compete for resources in New Eden. I think there should be a place (like a structure-less, social corp) for new players and those not wanting to compete to splash around in sandbox, but any competitive activity that is effecting the greater economy must be at risk to other players.
Why Do They Gank?
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Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
265
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Posted - 2016.06.16 06:36:51 -
[16] - Quote
Ageanal Olerie.....
You cracked in the head, this is not WoW....CCP is not Blizzard....
You should consider unsubbing, themepark not wanted here |
Starrakatt
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps FETID
520
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Posted - 2016.06.16 06:38:07 -
[17] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:So I could have a hundred pocos, fifty pos, and a gaggle of the new stuff coming later in the year, never lift a finger to defend any of them and still remain completely untouchable because I don't have a citadel? That's what it looks like.
Famous idea.
Sneaky bastard.
FETID now recruiting pvp pilots & corporations | lowsec pvp & piracy - Join Run and Gun
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
876
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Posted - 2016.06.16 13:44:58 -
[18] - Quote
Ageanal Olerie, as you can tell by now you have run into the single biggest problem with war decs, no one can agree on what they should be.
There are those here who argue that the current system is the best and they wil do their best to shout down any proposed changes, yet they complain about their targets jumping corp, not logging in etc
Some want changes, but the changes they propose are only beneficial to the attackers, things like you cannot leave a corp once decced, having the game automatically eject you into space where you are vulnerable after a period of time even if you have not logged in.
Some want change but their proposed changes are really only beneficial to the defenders, and I am sorry but I have to say that your idea is tending in this direction, and while it has some interesting aspects to it when taken as a whole I could not support it.
Personally I would like to see the social corp that was mentioned earlier become a reality. Trade some serious limitation on what they can do as a corp for the immunity to war decs as a basic concept it seems to offer the best options for all players in the game.
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Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
181
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Posted - 2016.06.16 15:59:27 -
[19] - Quote
Ageanal Olerie wrote:Just about every corportion (outside of very small ones) aspires to put up a citadel or one of the other upcoming structures
You sure about that?
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
16353
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Posted - 2016.06.16 16:23:59 -
[20] - Quote
if the observatory array is actually useful you will see plenty of them to target. so working under the assumption that ccp actually make them so you will get your wish, aggressors will have something in space for you to attack if you like.
the rest is just mewling for more safety and to that a say this may be more your speed
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Tiddle Jr
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
874
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Posted - 2016.06.17 09:06:06 -
[21] - Quote
i'm going to buy a mining batge to be able to WD those mining dwarfs corp and through a rock big enough to crack their Orca shields...
"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
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Sitting Bull Lakota
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
80
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Posted - 2016.06.17 10:28:13 -
[22] - Quote
I like how these threads clearly highlight how players can be easily sorted into two groups: Those who want to play a spaceship mmo. Those who want to play EvE. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
26206
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Posted - 2016.06.17 12:04:57 -
[23] - Quote
Ageanal Olerie wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:And/or attack people because I can. That's what Low, Null, and WH space is for. Nope, by design hisec is as much a place to shoot people in the face because you can as any other area of the game, the only major difference being that doing so without sanction incurs an overwhelming NPC response.
Despite over a decade of people saying "if you want to PvP, leave hisec" CCP haven't disabled PvP in hisec, that should tell you how wrong your statement is.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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