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Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
17
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Posted - 2011.12.23 16:06:00 -
[91] - Quote
Arkady Sadik wrote:Valerie Valate wrote:Andreus believes in genociding those whose opinions he doesn't like. His opinion is invalid. Don't you think that's a bit simplified? He does not like all of my opinions, and he so far hasn't expressed an intent to kill me.
He has expressed the opinion, on more than one occasion, that the Caldari people have to be exterminated.
Ask Vikarion and Stitcher about that. |
Abdas Raad
PIE Inc.
0
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Posted - 2011.12.23 16:23:00 -
[92] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote: She thought for herself.
You say this as if it's something that should be encouraged. The Word says differently:
Be Watchful. Free Thought is the Begetter of Disorder. - Book I, The Code of Demeanor |
Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
296
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Posted - 2011.12.23 16:54:00 -
[93] - Quote
Abdas Raad wrote:Andreus Ixiris wrote: She thought for herself.
You say this as if it's something that should be encouraged. The Word says differently: Be Watchful. Free Thought is the Begetter of Disorder.- Book I, The Code of Demeanor Yes, that is exactly his point.
Blind obedience to the Scriptures has been used to justify a lot of atrocities the Amarr have committed. It is important to the other cultures to believe that the Amarr are not a ticking timebomb anymore, but can be trusted even if they might at some point not be as weak anymore as they currently are. One way to achieve that is to show that the Amarr show that they are capable of laying aside their blind obedience to the Scriptures when the blind obedience would ask them to commit what other cultures consider atrocities.
Hence why Ms. Underking has done - in the eyes of the other cultures, at least - a lot more for the Amarrian culture than all the combatants in the Crusade together. |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
370
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Posted - 2011.12.23 17:21:00 -
[94] - Quote
Abdas Raad wrote:You say this as if it's something that should be encouraged.
It is. Andreus Anthony LeHane Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Nicoletta Mithra
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
15
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Posted - 2011.12.23 19:05:00 -
[95] - Quote
Arkady Sadik wrote:Abdas Raad wrote:Andreus Ixiris wrote: She thought for herself.
You say this as if it's something that should be encouraged. The Word says differently: Be Watchful. Free Thought is the Begetter of Disorder.- Book I, The Code of Demeanor Yes, that is exactly his point. Blind obedience to the Scriptures has been used to justify a lot of atrocities the Amarr have committed. It is important to the other cultures to believe that the Amarr are not a ticking timebomb anymore, but can be trusted even if they might at some point not be as weak anymore as they currently are. One way to achieve that is to show that the Amarr show that they are capable of laying aside their blind obedience to the Scriptures when the blind obedience would ask them to commit what other cultures consider atrocities. Hence why Ms. Underking has done - in the eyes of the other cultures, at least - a lot more for the Amarrian culture than all the combatants in the Crusade together.
This is just hilarious. Careful reading and study of the Scripture shows that it's not thinking nor thinking for oneself that's the problem. What the Scriputre refers to as "Free Thought" in this passage is thought that is free of the one thing everything is dependent on: it's thought free of God.
Thinking for yourself is commendable, as long as your thoughts include the source of all that is good, that is the Lord Himself. Actually, there is little that is better for yourself that you can do than approaching God by thought, as should be quite evident for every believer at least. Just as thinking that is free of God, the source of all order, will by necessity lead to disorder.
Never and nowhere was blind obedience to the Scripture and especially the Scripture as literally written considered a virtue in Amarrian orthodoxy. Scripture needs exegesis by trained and educated sages to be fruitful and that is exactly why the clergy has such a high standing in our culture. As Hedion shows, though, there are also experts independent from the institution of the church that have their place in the Amarrian system of intellectual checks and balances. There is even a place for the laity that studies the scriptures and the rules of exegesis that govern them.
Unfortunately though the majority of capsuleers can't be bothered - it seems - with learning the rules of exegesis and instead goes for advocating the literal sense of the scripture as it's true meaning. This laziness in training ones mind and sharpening it to the extent that is necessary to meaningfully engage in the study of Scripture is maybe the most unfortunate development in Amarrian society of the recent years. It's a profanization of our most holy texts and a reason to weep.
Equally unfortunate is the claim of capsuleers outside the Empire that this very recent development isn't recent at all and that it would be in fact the essence of Amarrian thinking. It would be a reason to laugh if it wouldn't be that sad, especially considering that many Amarrian capsuleers are seemingly supporting this claim by their behavior and laziness to engage in serious Scripture study.
Truth is, if there has been any blind obedience in regards to religious truths in Amarrian culture, than it wasn't blind obedience to the Scriptures - neither their literal meaning nor any other way of obedience to them that was blind - but blind obedience to those religious experts responsible for exegesis of the scripture.
What would be more to the truth is that Amarr comitted those atrocities that it did commit not because it's in possession of the Scripture, but simply out of those reasons that are quite normally responsible for any kind of atrocities committed by mankind: Greed, envy, hate, narcissism, hubris... in short, these very human failings that are universal among us, whether we believe in God or not. To admit this, though, would mean that those that feel to be the victims would have to admit that they themselves have the potential for these properties in themselves. This would mean that the divide between victims and offender wouldn't be as absolute as they like it to be, that it is not an absolute divide at all.
I think Eran Mintor got a glimpse of this truth: That there is very little that actually does divide victim and offender, Amarr and Minmatar. What little he saw of this truth he might have been empowered to see through falling in love with 'the enemy'. The difference between him and Ms. Underking is therefore this: Cpt. Mintor defected to help those of his brethren that are still enslaved - Ms. Underking defected to oppose her own kind.
Both of them thought. Both thought for themselves. What is the difference? The former train of thought is in conformity with the divine that is One. The second train of thought is free of this conformity, it is in fact the kind of thought that the Scripture warns about - but not because it's someone thinking for herself. It's this dangerous form of "Fee Thought" because it lacks in reconnecting to the first cause and therefore fails to aim at the ultimate end.
Amarr is not and has never been against thinking. We're, though, strong advocates of thinking properly, even though anyone is free to think what he wants in the Empire - there is no such thing as thought crime over here - as long as you keep it to yourself. |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
370
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Posted - 2011.12.23 19:18:00 -
[96] - Quote
You're attempting to interpret the Scriptures. That's basically heresy - they're meant to be taken literally. Andreus Anthony LeHane Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Nicoletta Mithra
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
15
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Posted - 2011.12.23 19:57:00 -
[97] - Quote
Do me a favor and go and die quietly, Ixiris. |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
371
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Posted - 2011.12.23 20:39:00 -
[98] - Quote
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:Do me a favor and go and die quietly, Ixiris.
Do me a favour and come and speak those words to my face, or slink back to your hole, Amarrian. Andreus Anthony LeHane Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Kalaratiri
Teraa Matar
48
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Posted - 2011.12.23 21:08:00 -
[99] - Quote
Guys? Someone died..? Maybe keep it to mail or something.
Seriously not the place. |
Conventia Underking
Teraa Matar
68
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Posted - 2011.12.24 00:27:00 -
[100] - Quote
Abdas Raad wrote:Andreus Ixiris wrote: She thought for herself.
You say this as if it's something that should be encouraged. The Word says differently: Be Watchful. Free Thought is the Begetter of Disorder.- Book I, The Code of Demeanor
Why is it that I don't know you? For God; Salvation is Imperative, but not at the cost of our Humanity!
Teraa Matar - the Vitoc Problem - Conventia Underking |
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
Guiding Hand Social Club
46
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Posted - 2011.12.24 02:01:00 -
[101] - Quote
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:Do me a favor and go and die quietly, Ixiris.
That's not his style. His funeral will likely involve three nights of fireworks and go-go girls. |
Nicoletta Mithra
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
15
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Posted - 2011.12.24 05:05:00 -
[102] - Quote
Istvaan Shogaatsu wrote:That's not his style. His funeral will likely involve three nights of fireworks and go-go girls.
Well in that case it's okay if he goes to die and sends me an invitation to the party. I see how it is a reason to celebrate excessively.
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Do me a favour and come and speak those words to my face, or slink back to your hole, Amarrian.
Well, let's compromise: You come over to my 'hole' and I speak those words to your face.
Thinking about it, I don't have a problem with coming over to the Federation and speaking those words again to your face over a cup of coffee or tea somewhere. Crystal boulevard is nice this time of the year. Just in case you don't want to come over to Sarum Prime or are unable to compromise for whatever other reasons that there are.
Kalaratiri wrote:Guys? Someone died..? Maybe keep it to mail or something.
Seriously not the place.
Well, as this is not a thread to mourn the fallen, but one opened to boast about his successful extermination and cry "Fear the Tribes!", I don't see how the polite request to die quietly doesn't fit into the conversation. |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
371
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Posted - 2011.12.24 05:56:00 -
[103] - Quote
Istvaan Shogaatsu wrote:That's not his style. His funeral will likely involve three nights of fireworks and go-go girls.
What's this about go-go girls?
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:Well, let's compromise: You come over to my 'hole' and I speak those words to your face.
Thinking about it, I don't have a problem with coming over to the Federation and speaking those words again to your face over a cup of coffee or tea somewhere. Crystal boulevard is nice this time of the year. Just in case you don't want to come over to Sarum Prime or are unable to compromise for whatever other reasons that there are.
What an Amarrian is prepared to say on the IGS she should be prepared to back up with her lasers, and I daresay I've been in Amarr space - doing the job your people should be doing and keeping the pirate rabble in line - a lot more often recently than you've been to Federation space.
I guess I'm just nice like that. Andreus Anthony LeHane Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Nicoletta Mithra
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
15
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Posted - 2011.12.24 06:33:00 -
[104] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:What an Amarrian is prepared to say on the IGS she should be prepared to back up with her lasers, and I daresay I've been in Amarr space - doing the job your people should be doing and keeping the pirate rabble in line - a lot more often recently than you've been to Federation space.
Why should I back up a request to die quietly with lasers? First i don't want to kill you (otherwise there would've been no need to ask you to die in the first place) and second it would lead to a death that's only temporal, if anything - and I've nothing against your crew, so I've no wish nor justification to end their life prematurely.
Your barbaric attitude to settle every dealing you have with Empire-loyal Amarr with force, taking the potential death of your crew as something so easily considered, is, quite frankly, repugnant. |
Garion Avarr
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2011.12.24 06:56:00 -
[105] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:You're attempting to interpret the Scriptures. That's basically heresy - they're meant to be taken literally. You've converted and become an expert on Amarrian religion?
My, things have changed while I've been away. |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
371
|
Posted - 2011.12.24 08:24:00 -
[106] - Quote
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:Why should I back up a request to die quietly with lasers?
Ah, so I guess you are just all talk then.
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:Your barbaric attitude to settle every dealing you have with Empire-loyal Amarr with force, taking the potential death of your crew as something so easily considered, is, quite frankly, repugnant.
That attitude - not that it's an accurate description of the one I hold - is by no means barbaric; it's pragmatic. The Amarrians have a very long history of taking out their own issues on others by means of violence.
Udorians have a more successful, more prosperous and less oppressive society than you? Conquer and enslave them. Sabi Sanik have theological disagreements with you? Murder and exile them. Takhmal have theological disagreements with you? Murder and exile them. Ni-Kunni live inoffensively in a far corner of the cluster? Conquer and enslave them. Another tribe on the Ni-Kunni homeworld resists you? Wipe them out. Minmatar have a prosperous, successful and technologically advanced society that functions just fine without your god? Conquer and enslave them. Starkmanir throw you off the planet that's rightfully theirs after a half-millenia of abuse? Wipe them out. Jovians have a prosperous, successful and technologically advanced society that functions just fine without your god? Attempt to conquer and enslave them (although thankfully, that didn't work out too well for you). Federation has a prosperous, successful and technologically advanced society that functions better without your god? Make plans to conquer and enslave them. Business partner becomes politically inconvenient to support? Stab him in the back.
And right now you're engaged in a war with the stated intent of re-enslaving the Minmatar, a race that broke away from the clutches of your Empire and has made it obvious in the most obvious terms possible that it has no desire to be reincorporated into your Empire. Name one problem the Empire has solved through peaceful methods when violence was an easier and quicker option. And you blame people for choosing violence before reason as tools for protecting themselves from Amarrian aggression?
But actually, the brave and noble Ms. Conventia Underking suggests that there might be another way to deal with Amarrian loyalists - that reason and dignity might actually work. But of course, surprise surprise, you're attempting to destroy the one voice that might convince us the Amarr can be reasoned with because you don't like the way she's doing it.
Garion Avarr wrote:You've converted and become an expert on Amarrian religion?
My, things have changed while I've been away.
I know a hell of a lot about the Scriptures. In fact, studies universally show that atheists, in general, have a much better understanding of, and familiarity with, religious texts than those that adhere to the religious doctrines they outline. In a frankly hilarious twist, this understanding and familiarity is often listed as a large part of the reason that atheists don't believe those selfsame religions; they are able to perceive the logical contradictions and impossibillities inherent in them far more clearly. This is also why the Scriptures openly decry free thought of any kind - and not, as Nicoletta Mithra's apologetic (and entirely inaccurate) interpretation suggests, merely God-free thought.
There isn't any room for interpretation of the Scriptures, because this basically invalidates the dogma of the religion - if anything is open to interpretation, everything is open to interpretation and the dictates of God become as fallible as the dictates of Man. Well, I mean, in reality the dictates of "God" are just dictates of Man given a particularly ostentatious fictional framing device, but, you know, hypothesis for the benefit of argument and all that. Andreus Anthony LeHane Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Ssakaa
Murientor Tribe
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.24 11:42:00 -
[107] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Udorians have a more successful, more prosperous and less oppressive society than you? Conquer and enslave them. Sabi Sanik have theological disagreements with you? Murder and exile them. Takhmal have theological disagreements with you? Murder and exile them. Ni-Kunni live inoffensively in a far corner of the cluster? Conquer and enslave them. Another tribe on the Ni-Kunni homeworld resists you? Wipe them out. Minmatar have a prosperous, successful and technologically advanced society that functions just fine without your god? Conquer and enslave them. Starkmanir throw you off the planet that's rightfully theirs after a half-millenia of abuse? Wipe them out. Jovians have a prosperous, successful and technologically advanced society that functions just fine without your god? Attempt to conquer and enslave them (although thankfully, that didn't work out too well for you). Federation has a prosperous, successful and technologically advanced society that functions better without your god? Make plans to conquer and enslave them. Business partner becomes politically inconvenient to support? Stab him in the back.
This is very cool, Andreus.
The scriptures in less than 160 words for all who find the originals too eye-wateringly diabolical to get to pages 2 or 3. Should be handed out at schools across the worlds of the free peoples to remind us that a snake can shed its skin all it likes, but remains a snake all the same.
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Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
373
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Posted - 2011.12.24 13:00:00 -
[108] - Quote
You might want to put an extra line between each example. Makes them stand out a bit more and makes 'em less cluttered, but I didn't want to take up too much space when I was listing them.
But, as always, happy to help. Andreus Anthony LeHane Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Nicoletta Mithra
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
15
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Posted - 2011.12.24 15:06:00 -
[109] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Nicoletta Mithra wrote:Why should I back up a request to die quietly with lasers? Ah, so I guess you are just all talk then. Nicoletta Mithra wrote:Your barbaric attitude to settle every dealing you have with Empire-loyal Amarr with force, taking the potential death of your crew as something so easily considered, is, quite frankly, repugnant. That attitude - not that it's an accurate description of the one I hold - is by no means barbaric; it's pragmatic. The Amarrians have a very long history of taking out their own issues on others by means of violence. Udorians have a more successful, more prosperous and less oppressive society than you? Conquer and enslave them. [...]
Well, this is some kind of gigantic slippery slope you're slipping on, Ixiris. And all that in a post that starts with reproaching me for not being willing to use my lasers and then going on to criticize that we Amarr always use our lasers against other people.
This starts to drift off into the field of comedy. Make your mind up, Captain. |
Nicoletta Mithra
Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah
15
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Posted - 2011.12.24 15:09:00 -
[110] - Quote
-double post- |
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Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
373
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Posted - 2011.12.24 16:25:00 -
[111] - Quote
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:Well, this is some kind of gigantic slippery slope you're slipping on, Ixiris. And all that in a post that starts with reproaching me for not being willing to use my lasers and then going on to criticize that we Amarr always use our lasers against other people.
This starts to drift off into the field of comedy. Make your mind up, Captain.
Ah, but the state and the individual are two different entities, unless you're Sansha, no? While I don't believe in states ruling at the point of a gun, I also don't see much worth in a woman who passive-aggressively wills death upon those whose opinion she dislikes, but can't back up that weedling frustration with actual actions.
If you think everyone you don't agree with should die, for heaven's sake woman, don't half-arse it. Andreus Anthony LeHane Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar
83
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Posted - 2011.12.24 18:33:00 -
[112] - Quote
I think we should be reflecting on the life-death of Eran Mintor, who was the original topic of this thread, rather than argue about the same things we always do on the Summit.
I personally never knew the man, but I do hope his life-death will serve as a reminder and lesson to us all of what is truly important in life. The reaper comes for us all. |
Raphael Saint
Imperium Aeternum
9
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Posted - 2011.12.24 19:03:00 -
[113] - Quote
Conventia Underking wrote: I just think you are bitter because I switched sides and it's easy to be bitter against people you consider to be your enemy.
Again, humorous. The only thing worth noting in your two years of service within the militia (in which you've done less than I've been able to accomplish in a single month with only a handful of hours available for flight) is serve within the Praetoria. As much as it puts me in an awkward position to agree with Lianne, go and accomplish something, and then maybe I can reach the bitterness stage.
Right now, I'm quite apathetic. I'd have more concern about a box of fertilizer switching it's loyalties than I've been able to muster for your case. |
Victoria Stecker
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2011.12.24 19:30:00 -
[114] - Quote
Huh, I drop of grid for a bit, come back and Eran's dead. Interesting.
I suppose that's a relief for whoever had to follow him around with a mop and bucket, because that Brutor could ******* drool. |
Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
304
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Posted - 2011.12.24 19:40:00 -
[115] - Quote
Raphael Saint wrote:Right now, I'm quite apathetic. I'd have more concern about a box of fertilizer switching it's loyalties than I've been able to muster for your case. I don't think you actually meant "apathetic" there, as you do express your opinion on the topic (repeatedly, even). You probably meant "unconcerned", as you think that this defection will not really affect that which you care for. You argue for that by citing ... I'm not even sure what it is, but I suspect kill counts. I doubt you have, say, historical victory point values.
Do you really think this war will be won or lost by the side with the better killboard stats? I doubt it. But I would agree that Ms. Underking's defection is unlikely to affect the war effort itself in any major way. Even Mr. Mintor's defection merely set back the Republic's war effort temporarily, and he was a key contributor there.
What Ms. Underking's defection - the defection of a Believer of the Amarrian Faith, a (former) firm loyalist - does show, though, is that there is hope for an end of this war that does not require the complete extermination of either side of the conflict.
And that Hope is very precious these days. |
Raphael Saint
Imperium Aeternum
9
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Posted - 2011.12.24 20:10:00 -
[116] - Quote
Arkady Sadik wrote:I don't think you actually meant "apathetic" there, as you do express your opinion on the topic (repeatedly, even). You probably meant "unconcerned", as you think that this defection will not really affect that which you care for.
A fair point, and the appropriate changes will be made. |
Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid
3
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Posted - 2011.12.25 00:13:00 -
[117] - Quote
Call it the time of night or the frequency and strength of the drinks that have flown tonight if you will, but I would really rather remember Eran as the man I flew with under the TLF banner for so long.
His actions after he changed sides may have angered many of you but they never really affected me, *shrugs*. |
Lyn Farel
Extropian Technologies
53
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Posted - 2011.12.27 11:18:00 -
[118] - Quote
Abdas Raad wrote:Andreus Ixiris wrote: She thought for herself.
You say this as if it's something that should be encouraged. The Word says differently: Be Watchful. Free Thought is the Begetter of Disorder.- Book I, The Code of Demeanor
Funny. I have always seen this passage as a warning against thought free of any actual reasoning. Mostly refering to one of the most spread sin in the cluster, when emotion starts to replace rational thought.
What is free thought ? Free like a freed slave, which means anybody can think freely without any restraint ? Free like free of charges, like anyone experiences thoughts that are totally free of any reflexion, reasoning, or work ?
The Word only says differently in your mind.
Andreus Ixiris wrote:You're attempting to interpret the Scriptures. That's basically heresy - they're meant to be taken literally.
The TC told you so ?
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:Kalaratiri wrote:Guys? Someone died..? Maybe keep it to mail or something.
Seriously not the place. Well, as this is not a thread to mourn the fallen, but one opened to boast about his successful extermination and cry "Fear the Tribes!", I don't see how the polite request to die quietly doesn't fit into the conversation.
I am not not sure if lowering to the level of the people you accuse of doing something (boasting about successful extermination of someone) is the thing to do ? |
Diana Kim
Wolfsbrigade
11
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Posted - 2011.12.27 12:50:00 -
[119] - Quote
Istvaan Shogaatsu wrote:Nicoletta Mithra wrote:Do me a favor and go and die quietly, Ixiris. That's not his style. His funeral will likely involve three nights of fireworks and go-go girls.
I see both of you are paying too much attention to our local gallente clown's words. Take my advice, save your time, it doesn't worth wasting on twaddler like him. |
John Revenent
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
12
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Posted - 2011.12.28 11:30:00 -
[120] - Quote
A pity.
Mintor is one pilot I shall never forget even if our ideals had parted ways. Ancestors be with you. |
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