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Unconspicous Alt
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
27
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Posted - 2016.06.22 10:24:24 -
[1] - Quote
... immortal words as said by the cat in Tom & Jerry after being blown up :)
Or, at least this is the conclusion after reading the quoted blog statements below and having no reply from the devs regarding the monumental lies that caused so many players to spend the equivalent of 2 to 20 months subscription price to build or buy defenseless structures.
https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/building-your-citadel-one-block-at-a-time/ "New structure hulls are going to replace Starbases, Outposts and Deployables over time (please refer to the end of this blog for more details)." "While the medium structures should be similar to a fully fitted Starbase"
The medium structure ( astrahus ) is far from having the capabilities of a fully fitted starbase.
https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/back-into-the-structure/ "Structure combat is more exciting: Structure combat leaves a lot to be desired, as the AI target selection is lacking, while defensive options are limited and not that effective."
As they are now, the citadels are a lot LESS effective in defense compared to POSes.
Before thinking about locking this thread : note that it was written, against my better judgement, at a GM's suggestion after several petitions. I think he really believes, the poor guy, that the devs do not know about this issue and will actually bother to answer. |
Warrior Xena
Crown Solutions TOGETHER WE STAND
36
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Posted - 2016.06.22 10:46:53 -
[2] - Quote
You must be new if you still believe CCP's posts. They are meant to fool inexperienced players. Just a tad above Jita local.
Here is another in the "how great is a citadel" subject that has no correspondence in reality :
There are offensive modules, but also modules for remote repair. you can find it here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=478634&find=unread
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Khan Wrenth
Ore Oppression Prevention and Salvation
616
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Posted - 2016.06.22 11:11:07 -
[3] - Quote
I won't believe it! No matter what they say, I KNOW, for fact, that it is not butter.
Okay, I don't know what specifically inspired the spawning of this thread. I have some very limited experience defending an Astrahus with my corpmates, so I'll speak on what my experience has taught me.
The way this "citadel" thing ended up playing out is like this - for all intents and purposes, the citadel basically acts like a big ship. By that, I mean, you need to have it fitted right, you need someone in there that has the SP, and you need to know what you're doing. When it comes to citadel defense, it's basically a very large, immobile ship, that is only utilized correctly when someone with tactical forethought or experience is manning the guns.
By itself, it cannot do much except repel an attack by a small, disorganized, and inexperienced force. Any real commitment to an attacking force, and you have to field a proper defense fleet keeping in mind that the citadel needs to synergize with your fleet. Think of it as fielding a capital ship: you need to have support on field that can help a capital land shots, right? Same deal here. It's a defense force multiplier, not a force unto itself. And yes, not all that great a multiplier either. But this is EvE, people should be expected to be fielding spaceships, it's not a tower defense game.
I hope you didn't yourself plop down the isk to invest in these only to be disappointed. It's wise in EvE to let the hilariously rich people play with the new toys and/or mechanics first and figure out the nuances as such. Like, the way Drifters were wrecking ships left and right.
If Devs promised some things from the onset, and those promises didn't pan out, please don't direct too much ire at the devs for it. Yes, they should probably scale back promises and expectations a bit, but they have a game to sell, and modesty rarely sells well. Beyond that, they probably had every intention of following through with their (however vague) promises about citadel capability, only to find that making the structures have so much power may have completely broken something. So, after finding this problem, they have to scale back until they find a decent balance point.
When things like citadels are released, and people don't riot about overpowered toys suddenly flooding space, that's the result of a lot of behind-the-scenes quality assurance and testing, making sure stuff works properly. And after they get the new toys in the ballpark of where they think they should be, those toys get released to SiSi to see what the creative playerbase can do with them. That live testing gives them the information they need to finally adjust things to their liking.
It's a complicated process, lots of things can go wrong along the way, especially power levels of new things that pose a threat to throw everything out of whack. Try to be understanding and patient with the process; as it is not an easy one to go through and impossible to every truly master.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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CCP Darwin
C C P C C P Alliance
2118
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Posted - 2016.06.22 11:19:04 -
[4] - Quote
Quote:New structure hulls are going to replace Starbases, Outposts and Deployables over time (emphasis mine.)
This time has not yet arrived.
In the meantime, please feel most welcome to construct a player-owned-starbase our outpost if they fit your needs better.
CCP Darwin GÇó Senior Technical Artist, EVE Online GÇó @mark_wilkins
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3311
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Posted - 2016.06.22 11:20:20 -
[5] - Quote
Khan Wrenth wrote: If Devs promised some things from the onset, and those promises didn't pan out, please don't direct too much ire at the devs for it. Yes, they should probably scale back promises and expectations a bit, but they have a game to sell, and modesty rarely sells well. Beyond that, they probably had every intention of following through with their (however vague) promises about citadel capability, only to find that making the structures have so much power may have completely broken something. So, after finding this problem, they have to scale back until they find a decent balance point.
When things like citadels are released, and people don't riot about overpowered toys suddenly flooding space, that's the result of a lot of behind-the-scenes quality assurance and testing, making sure stuff works properly. And after they get the new toys in the ballpark of where they think they should be, those toys get released to SiSi to see what the creative playerbase can do with them. That live testing gives them the information they need to finally adjust things to their liking.
It's a complicated process, lots of things can go wrong along the way, especially power levels of new things that pose a threat to throw everything out of whack. Try to be understanding and patient with the process; as it is not an easy one to go through and impossible to every truly master.
Quite frankly, the ire should be directed at the Devs. We repeatedly told them at every stage of development, and gave them the numbers to show that Citadels were monumentally too weak compared to POS. They refused to listen and only ever tested with XL Citadels in Nullsec vs a fleet where they actually are decent due to the doomsday, and ignored all the other sizes & locations with regards to balancing.
So yes, the Devs to deserve Ire over Citadels, I've got months left on them since I use 12 month subscriptions, but between this and daily XP grinds being introduced unless something amazing comes I'm going to be gone in a few months since their direction of development has become more and more neglectful of anyone but the null blocs. |
Anke Eyrou
Hades Sisters
72
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Posted - 2016.06.22 11:37:52 -
[6] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
So yes, the Devs to deserve Ire over Citadels, I've got months left on them since I use 12 month subscriptions, but between this and daily XP grinds being introduced unless something amazing comes I'm going to be gone in a few months since their direction of development has become more and more neglectful of anyone but the null blocs.
If your leaving Can I have your stuff?
I expect to get this post deleted or locked. So much for freedom of expression.
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Unconspicous Alt
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
28
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Posted - 2016.06.22 11:40:05 -
[7] - Quote
Khan Wrenth wrote:By itself, it cannot do much except repel an attack by a small, disorganized, and inexperienced force. Any real commitment to an attacking force, and you have to field a proper defense fleet keeping in mind that the citadel needs to synergize with your fleet. Think of it as fielding a capital ship: you need to have support on field that can help a capital land shots, right? Same deal here. It's a defense force multiplier, not a force unto itself. And yes, not all that great a multiplier either.
However, they have advertised medium citadels as being "replacements for full-fitted POS", and not "a big immobile thing that can be destroyed within half an hour by a 5 BS fleet if you do not field your own ships in defense".
I completely understand the need to field defenses against a large fleet. But a medium citadel needs that against a fleet that would have absolutely no chance against a "fully fitted POS". As shown repeatedly in forums, even since this expansion was only on sisi was even in tests, medium and large citadels defenses are completely inadequate against subcap fleets.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3315
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Posted - 2016.06.22 12:02:05 -
[8] - Quote
Anke Eyrou wrote: If your leaving Can I have your stuff?
No, my stuff will be kept on my characters, since even if I let the accounts lapse, I may still come back at some point later if I see the development direction which has caused me to cancel changed. And I want it still there then, since I don't have much stuff :P |
Dirty Forum Alt
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
58
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Posted - 2016.06.22 12:06:55 -
[9] - Quote
TBH my main problem with Citadels is that everything stored inside them is magically 100% safe no matter what, and can even be transported an infinite distance from inside a secluded wormhole to a safe npc-owned station instantaneously if/when the citadel is destroyed. This is 100% against what has up until recently been a fairly core principle in EVE: Anything player owned is at risk, and anything *inside* a player owned structure/vessel is also at risk. Even in sov space, your items may not get given to the conquerors - but they are locked inside a building you can no longer access. Similarly the POS towers these aim to eventually replace? They destroy or drop every single player owned item inside when they are destroyed.
Citadels should *either* be able to defend themselves *or* provide 100% safe storage for player items. NOT BOTH.
So stop whining and luxuriate in the fact that you have something *no* EVE player has ever had before - ZERO RISK. (yeah yeah I know the structures cost money - but you can store an infinite value of things inside without risk - and people do so in the ones that actually get used for tax free trading/etc near jita) |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3315
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Posted - 2016.06.22 12:10:13 -
[10] - Quote
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:TBH my main problem with Citadels is that everything stored inside them is magically 100% safe no matter what, and can even be transported an infinite distance from inside a secluded wormhole to a safe npc-owned station instantaneously if/when the citadel is destroyed. 1. No they can't. WH Citadels don't have asset safety. 2. Without asset safety anywhere else, people simply would never put items in them, just like people don't put much into POS's. No, your anecdote of the single POS with value in K space doesn't count, on the whole, people simply don't put stuff in POS, people wouldn't put stuff in Citadels and Markets in Citadels could never happen. 3. Citadels are a replacement for POS, Outposts and intended for players to move out of NPC stations, therefore there has to be a balance of mechanics between the three. 4. 15% of item value is not Zero risk. Effectively you lost 15% of what you had in the Citadel. |
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Dirty Forum Alt
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
58
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Posted - 2016.06.22 12:23:01 -
[11] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Dirty Forum Alt wrote:TBH my main problem with Citadels is that everything stored inside them is magically 100% safe no matter what, and can even be transported an infinite distance from inside a secluded wormhole to a safe npc-owned station instantaneously if/when the citadel is destroyed. 1. No they can't. WH Citadels don't have asset safety. 2. Without asset safety anywhere else, people simply would never put items in them, just like people don't put much into POS's. No, your anecdote of the single POS with value in K space doesn't count, on the whole, people simply don't put stuff in POS, people wouldn't put stuff in Citadels and Markets in Citadels could never happen. 3. Citadels are a replacement for POS, Outposts and intended for players to move out of NPC stations, therefore there has to be a balance of mechanics between the three. 4. 15% of item value is not Zero risk. Effectively you lost 15% of what you had in the Citadel. Well then in the interest of balance - even the smallest Citadel puts up far more of a fight than an NPC station or a Player Owned Outpost without a defense fleet.
So once again my core point remains: Stop whining and enjoy your new OP toy. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3316
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Posted - 2016.06.22 12:33:08 -
[12] - Quote
Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Well then in the interest of balance - even the smallest Citadel puts up far more of a fight than an NPC station or a Player Owned Outpost without a defense fleet.
So once again my core point remains: Stop whining and enjoy your new OP toy.
Except you manage to fail to have any clue how they actually work, and how they are not OP at all. That or in classic EVE style you are actually a Null bloc player posting on an alt to lobby for the game to suit you rather than any care about actually good gameplay.
For Citadels to be able to perform their intended purpose they need to be sufficiently dangerous to remove station campers, & to act as a significant force multiplier, otherwise it's simply who has the bigger blob, which is always a terrible mechanic. |
Dark Apprentice
Home of the brave
0
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Posted - 2016.06.22 12:35:56 -
[13] - Quote
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:Well then in the interest of balance - even the smallest Citadel puts up far more of a fight than an NPC station or a Player Owned Outpost without a defense fleet.
A player owned outpost needs a large capitals/supercap fleet to be destroyed.
As i have tested myself on sisi, one medium citadel cannot destroy one bhaalgorn, let alone defend against a fleet of more. As we have seen on the live server, one medium citadel PLUS 2 carriers could not destroy even one ship from a fleet of 11 subcaps containing 3 guardians, two faction battleships and 6 hacs. So its does not perform very good as force multiplier either.
I suggest you try it before making a statement. |
ube smoked
State War Academy Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2016.06.22 12:39:08 -
[14] - Quote
Citadels = Pinatas in space. A total joke when it comes to self defense. |
Dirty Forum Alt
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
58
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Posted - 2016.06.22 12:50:11 -
[15] - Quote
Dark Apprentice wrote:Dirty Forum Alt wrote:Well then in the interest of balance - even the smallest Citadel puts up far more of a fight than an NPC station or a Player Owned Outpost without a defense fleet. A player owned outpost needs a large capitals/supercap fleet to be destroyed. As i have tested myself on sisi, one medium citadel cannot destroy one bhaalgorn, let alone defend against a fleet of more. As we have seen on the live server, one medium citadel PLUS 2 carriers could not destroy even one ship from a fleet of 11 subcaps containing 3 guardians, two faction battleships and 6 hacs. So its does not perform very good as force multiplier either. I suggest you try it before making a statement. An undefended player owned outpost requires any solo ship to destroy. They don't fight back. Learn 2 EVE.
I am also inclined to believe that your fittings on both your citadel and your carriers suck - along with your skills. Though I will grant you that the modern carrier is *not designed* to fight a heavy RR fleet. You would have done better with almost any other support ships.
I have no use for a Citadel, so I see no reason to get one. They don't even draw fights, because despite all your whining about how weak they are, they are everywhere and very few people bother to waste the time destroying them.
You also have extremely generous invulnerability windows/etc for your citadels. Plus lets not forget the magical damage-limiting that means you can only deal an extremely limited amount of DPS to the structure. Citadels are in fact CCP's first step in attempting to remove the "who has the bigger blob" factor from structure warfare.... Perhaps I'm not the only one who hasn't bothered to research them.
You guys are clearly just grasping at straws to give yourself reasons to whine, and ignoring all of the unprecedented benefits that are being thrown at you with these new structures. HTFU or GTFO. This is EVE. |
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
8120
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Posted - 2016.06.22 13:12:56 -
[16] - Quote
Wait, are you telling me CCP spent a lot of time and effort hyping a new feature, ignored substantial player feedback regarding it's shortcomings, and then delivered an incomplete mess that does not work as advertised?
Next thing you'll say is that they released it on a day that ends in "y".
Gÿ+
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper: 'Hodor'.
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Unconspicous Alt
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
31
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Posted - 2016.06.22 13:13:43 -
[17] - Quote
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:An undefended player owned outpost requires any solo ship to destroy. They don't fight back. Learn 2 EVE.
On the contrary. You should read more before saying anything here. Like you showed you have no idea about asset safety, not you show you do not know about outposts. http://www.eve-guides.com/outposts/FAQ.php To take over ( an indestructible ) outpost you first need to destroy the POSes that keep the sov.
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:You guys are clearly just grasping at straws to give yourself reasons to whine, and ignoring all of the unprecedented benefits that are being thrown at you with these new structures. HTFU or GTFO. This is EVE.
First you show you do not know eve, then you admit you are discussing citadels defenses when you have never tried one, and now you start cursing. Good way to show your real IQ man. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1360
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Posted - 2016.06.22 13:19:00 -
[18] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:Quote:New structure hulls are going to replace Starbases, Outposts and Deployables over time (emphasis mine.) This time has not yet arrived. And yet you've already removed functionality.
You see the problem? You remove stuff before you are in a position to replace it.
You made an already sparse part of the game less than it was and expect us to wait for multiple years before you replace it.
CCP Darwin wrote:In the meantime, please feel most welcome to construct a player-owned-starbase our outpost if they fit your needs better. Put back all the functionality you removed and that might be an answer. But in reality there is no structure that does all that a POS used to do. |
Dirty Forum Alt
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
58
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Posted - 2016.06.22 13:20:59 -
[19] - Quote
Unconspicous Alt wrote:Dirty Forum Alt wrote:An undefended player owned outpost requires any solo ship to destroy. They don't fight back. Learn 2 EVE. On the contrary. You should read more before saying anything here. Like you showed you have no idea about asset safety, not you show you do not know about outposts. http://www.eve-guides.com/outposts/FAQ.php To take over ( an indestructible ) outpost you first need to destroy the POSes that keep the sov. Dirty Forum Alt wrote:You guys are clearly just grasping at straws to give yourself reasons to whine, and ignoring all of the unprecedented benefits that are being thrown at you with these new structures. HTFU or GTFO. This is EVE. First you show you do not know eve, then you admit you are discussing citadels defenses when you have never tried one, and now you start cursing. Good way to show your real IQ man. #1 - Destroy was Dark's word, not mine...
#2 - Uh...no...you don't have to kill any POSes.... You have to take down a few other *undefended* structures... Still doable solo if nobody opposes you, and it doesn't even take all that long with the new mechanics - just the timer game mainly. Perhaps you should read up on sov mechanics if you wish to keep debating this? You are literally citing a non-official game guide from ***2008*** to support your argument now.........
#3 - You seem to be the one who doesn't know EVE...
#4 - I don't need to know the defenses - I know they *have* defenses, and in my opinion that already makes them too powerful given the other benefits. Again - stop whining. |
Jack Hayson
La Luna Negro inPanic
384
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Posted - 2016.06.22 13:23:19 -
[20] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote: And yet you've already removed functionality.
Which functionality did they remove?
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1360
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Posted - 2016.06.22 13:31:43 -
[21] - Quote
Jack Hayson wrote:Bad Bobby wrote: And yet you've already removed functionality.
Which functionality did they remove? A lot of industry functionality, including the ability to rent out research and industry services to other players.
They also made it so that POS no longer act as a driver for industrial activity to spread out in the game. An odd thing to do, but they did it anyway. |
Dirty Forum Alt
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
58
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Posted - 2016.06.22 13:34:37 -
[22] - Quote
Jack Hayson wrote:Bad Bobby wrote: And yet you've already removed functionality.
Which functionality did they remove? They removed his ability to remotely run jobs with all of his BPOs safely inside a nearby invulnerably NPC station. That is why he is whining (and presumably why he built a citadel)
Plus the industry rebalances that make it more open to everyone without a POS needed. |
Dartgnan
Black Wormholes of Apocrypha TOGETHER WE STAND
1
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Posted - 2016.06.22 13:36:59 -
[23] - Quote
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:They removed his ability to remotely run jobs with all of his BPOs safely inside a nearby invulnerably NPC station. That is why he is whining (and presumably why he built a citadel)
Yeah mainly because you can run science jobs in a citadel, right ?
Dirty Forum Alt wrote: #2 - Uh...no...you don't have to kill any POSes.... You have to take down a few other *undefended* structures... Still doable solo if nobody opposes you, and it doesn't even take all that long with the new mechanics - just the timer game mainly.
lol you become funnier with every post. You are the superhero that can take solo a player outpost... just that you haven't tried yet :) If you were not so bored, the entire eve should fear you !
What did you smoke ? |
Soldarius
O C C U P Y Test Alliance Please Ignore
1511
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Posted - 2016.06.22 13:41:09 -
[24] - Quote
https://zkillboard.com/system/30000250/ship/35833/
Looks pretty exciting to me. Our Fortizar in P3EN-E gets about 10 kills a day; mostly solo.
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
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Dirty Forum Alt
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
58
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Posted - 2016.06.22 13:44:55 -
[25] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:https://zkillboard.com/system/30000250/ship/35833/
Looks pretty exciting to me. Our Fortizar in P3EN-E gets about 10 kills a day; mostly solo. Impossible. They are 100% defenseless and useless. Ask anybody else here |
Dirty Forum Alt
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
58
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Posted - 2016.06.22 13:45:50 -
[26] - Quote
Dartgnan wrote:lol you become funnier with every post. You are the superhero that can take solo a player outpost... just that you haven't tried yet :) If you were not so bored, the entire eve should fear you !
What did you smoke ? You don't even need a gun anymore... It isn't even combat...
Are you people literally this clueless about current game mechanics? |
Dartgnan
Black Wormholes of Apocrypha TOGETHER WE STAND
1
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Posted - 2016.06.22 13:45:52 -
[27] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:https://zkillboard.com/system/30000250/ship/35833/
Looks pretty exciting to me. Our Fortizar in P3EN-E gets about 10 kills a day; mostly solo.
how many are from ships that attack it within the invulnerability window ? |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
1360
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Posted - 2016.06.22 13:46:41 -
[28] - Quote
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:Jack Hayson wrote:Bad Bobby wrote: And yet you've already removed functionality.
Which functionality did they remove? They removed his ability to remotely run jobs with all of his BPOs safely inside a nearby invulnerably NPC station. Well... they made it so you have to do that in an NPC station at a much lower cost than before. That was really a buff from my point of view.
Sure, there is risk involved with POS use now, but it's entirely manageable. I see that all as good stuff, I like things getting blown up and things getting risked.
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:That is why he is whining (and presumably why he built a citadel) I am not whining, I am merely responding to what I perceive as a disingenuous post by a Dev by pointing out that he's on the wrong side of the argument.
I have not built a citadel, I prefer to use someone elses at the moment.
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:Plus the industry rebalances that make it more open to everyone without a POS needed. That was a good thing. The fact that they also made it so you could put unlimited volume through a single POS was not a good thing. |
Jack Hayson
La Luna Negro inPanic
384
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Posted - 2016.06.22 13:46:50 -
[29] - Quote
Dirty Forum Alt wrote: They removed his ability to remotely run jobs with all of his BPOs safely inside a nearby invulnerably NPC station. That is why he is whining (and presumably why he built a citadel)
Plus the industry rebalances that make it more open to everyone without a POS needed.
Ah ok, so it's just some left over salt from the industry revamp and has actually nothing to do with citadels. Was already starting to wonder if I had missed something in the patch notes... |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3320
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Posted - 2016.06.22 14:42:43 -
[30] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:https://zkillboard.com/system/30000250/ship/35833/
Looks pretty exciting to me. Our Fortizar in P3EN-E gets about 10 kills a day; mostly solo. Oh look, a Null Citadel abusing drag bubbles near a gate is getting frigate kills, and a lone cruiser kill...... Obviously Citadels are balanced in all areas of space. Really? That's the best argument you can come up with when using drag bubbles onto a citadel because CCP didn't think about that abuse of the system that it's a fair representation of how a Citadel can actually defend itself or act as a force multiplier against an attack..... Especially since we've already said Citadels in Null are in a better state than Citadels elsewhere, because they get better defence modules in Null like AOE weapons such as bomb launchers, a smart bomb type weapon, and the XL gets a doomsday. Totally applies to Citadels elsewhere.
Thanks for utterly making my point though when you resort to such a weak argument.
Jack Hayson wrote:Ah ok, so it's just some left over salt from the industry revamp and has actually nothing to do with citadels. Was already starting to wonder if I had missed something in the patch notes...
Try actually reading the actual players reply to you, not the forum alt who is just trolling and abusing everyone. |
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