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Dirty Forum Alt
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
82
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Posted - 2016.06.24 15:30:49 -
[1] - Quote
Would it be worthwhile to introduce an actual "Ransom" mechanic into EVE whereby a pirate could negotiate a ransom with his victim which would be paid through an in-game interface, and would then start perhaps a 5-15 minute timer in which the pirate could no longer aggress the target - ensuring them that the ransom would be honoured.
I realize that combat in EVE is complicated, so the logistics of programming this system would be complex. They would have to account for negotiations with solo pirates or multiple pirates, who might or might not remain in fleet with each other, as well as assorted other factors. However, it should be doable with some work that all parties involved could be brought into a "ransom" interface (probably somewhat similar to a trade interface) and the ransom could be automatically divided among the pirates, then the new non-aggression timer would be applied equally to all pirates allowing the victim their safe passage away from the conflict.
Assuming the devs could figure out the logistical issues to make it a feasible system though - would it add value to the game, or would it be a mechanic that wouldn't be used? I know I for one would like to be able to honour ransoms without constant distrust/etc....I also know this would probably harm those who currently scam ransoms and kill their targets anyway.
I appreciate any/all input - I'm just curious if anyone else would even be interested in this. |
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4486
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Posted - 2016.06.24 15:40:54 -
[2] - Quote
...How would this even be possible?
How would you account for the 'neutral' stratios decloaking and popping you mid negotiation? or the third party smartbombing everyone involved? A system cannot be designed to compensate for every possibility. |
Dirty Forum Alt
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
82
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Posted - 2016.06.24 15:45:01 -
[3] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:...How would this even be possible?
How would you account for the 'neutral' stratios decloaking and popping you mid negotiation? or the third party smartbombing everyone involved? A system cannot be designed to compensate for every possibility. I agree no system is perfect - but it could be made better than current mechanics. It would primarily be useful in high-sec - as the risk of outside neutral interference is much lower. However, it could also be used in low/null sec complexes as well. Your decloaking stratios would likely be decloaked on the way in, and has a 5 second delay after decloaking as well.
On-gate negotiations would likely be suicidal for everyone involved due to your smartbombing BS or other interference - but that is true of current ransom negotiations in private chat as well
But aye, people would still find ways around the system - particularly outside of high sec. |
Dirty Forum Alt
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
82
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Posted - 2016.06.24 15:56:07 -
[4] - Quote
TBH although I'm not claiming to have all the technical answers - I think it could be made at least as useful/reliable as the "duel" mechanic is.
My guess is it would also see similar usage - not a ton, but it *would* be used.
As I say just curious what the interest level would even be among other EVE players - if it would even be worth CCP's time to try developing something along these lines if they were so inclined. |
Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony The Wraithguard.
344
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Posted - 2016.06.24 16:05:18 -
[5] - Quote
No. Especially in highsec it'll be abused without end.
It's a matter of trust, really. Some people will honour ransoms and 1v1 at the sun, others will not.
Allow me to present some edge cases: - bumping mach asks for ransom. Your "fix" wouldn't fix anything because technically he's not aggressing you. - you agree on a ransom with duder X from XCorp. Do our allies YCorp still get to shoot? Then you have no more guarantees than you have now. - you negotiate a ransom with spy X from XCorp. Congrats! You've now made target invulnerable for 15 minutes without anyone's approval. Broken much? - Some Guy in fleet negotiates ransom to let Mr.Target go. I'm flying a HIC, therefore I'm special and I want double or no deal. Who are you to negotiate my fee? - Provided all goes well and we have a deal, our invulnerable target now stalks us for 15 minutes providing warpins for his friends with impunity. Gee thanks!
I mean... come on? This'll get tedious real quick and wind up broken beyond belief in no time. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3338
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Posted - 2016.06.24 16:13:17 -
[6] - Quote
It'd be better if arbitrary rules weren't added. Especially ones that remove choice.
Whether a pirate honours a ransom or not is their choice. Pirates that do, may get a reputation for doing so and their targets may pay up more often. Pirates that don't may also get a reputation for not doing so and may not only be refused, but be hunted by those with an axe to grind as well. Its that choice and the consequences because of that choice that make the game what it is.
If your mechanic is implemented, the power is purely with the ransomee. They KNOW that if they pay up, they are safe. The ransomer has no choice. He gets no reputation.
That's not interesting. That's not sandbox. That's not EVE.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Dirty Forum Alt
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
82
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Posted - 2016.06.24 16:19:05 -
[7] - Quote
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:No. Especially in highsec it'll be abused without end.
It's a matter of trust, really. Some people will honour ransoms and 1v1 at the sun, others will not.
Allow me to present some edge cases: - bumping mach asks for ransom. Your "fix" wouldn't fix anything because technically he's not aggressing you. - you agree on a ransom with duder X from XCorp. Do our allies YCorp still get to shoot? Then you have no more guarantees than you have now. - you negotiate a ransom with spy X from XCorp. Congrats! You've now made target invulnerable for 15 minutes without anyone's approval. Broken much? - Some Guy in fleet negotiates ransom to let Mr.Target go. I'm flying a HIC, therefore I'm special and I want double or no deal. Who are you to negotiate my fee? - Provided all goes well and we have a deal, our invulnerable target now stalks us for 15 minutes providing warpins for his friends with impunity. Gee thanks!
I mean... come on? This'll get tedious real quick and wind up broken beyond belief in no time. -Well the bumping fix is already in the works - so no issues there really. -The ransom could only be negotiated with the individuals on grid at the time - it *could* be set up to require all hostiles actively on grid to agree to the negotiations before beginning, and allow any of them to cancel negotiation at any time. The isk amounts could be individual as well rather than a pool. This would deal with some of your issues. -I'm certainly not saying random member X from XCorp should be allowed to negotiate on behalf of the entire corporation. -perhaps a 3-5 minute timer would be better then - or even a 1 minute timer if bumps were removed from the equation. The goal is only to allow them to exit the engagement, not to remain invulnerable while they keep playing as they were.
I would envision it as some sort of a "white flag" mechanic where the pilot signals he would like to discuss a ransom, and then *if* everyone actively engaged in the conflict agrees negotiation can begin.
Another option would be no invulnerability but the ransomee would be warped off to a random safe spot say 5-10,000km from his original location - though this could then be abused to insta-warp a friendly 10,000km out I suppose.
As I say no system is perfect - but it could be designed so that the exploits would be fairly minimal. |
Dirty Forum Alt
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
82
|
Posted - 2016.06.24 16:23:57 -
[8] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:It'd be better if arbitrary rules weren't added. Especially ones that remove choice.
Whether a pirate honours a ransom or not is their choice. Pirates that do, may get a reputation for doing so and their targets may pay up more often. Pirates that don't may also get a reputation for not doing so and may not only be refused, but be hunted by those with an axe to grind as well. Its that choice and the consequences because of that choice that make the game what it is.
If your mechanic is implemented, the power is purely with the ransomee. They KNOW that if they pay up, they are safe. The ransomer has no choice. He gets no reputation.
That's not interesting. That's not sandbox. That's not EVE. I think we all know that 99.9% of EVE players who will ever find themself in a position to be ransomed will not bother to learn the reputation of the person asking for the ransom. Additionally, even if they did, nobody brags about paying a ransom - even if they live - so no such reputation ever spreads. There is not a single person in EVE who has a widespread reputation for honouring ransoms. Even among those who do, the reputation is limited to the people who know them fairly directly.
Players *do* base their level of trust on past ransom experiences - meaning as soon as 1 guy scams a ransom out of them, they are far less likely to believe anybody else, even if they did have a reputation for honouring ransoms.
The mechanic would be very similar to the war surrender mechanic - which already exists in EVE. It is not all that revolutionary.
All of that being said, you are entitled to your opinion - so fair enough, you wouldn't want this mechanic o7 |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3338
|
Posted - 2016.06.24 16:35:39 -
[9] - Quote
It really depends on the player. And some groups do get recognised for things like honouring ransoms, just like groups get recognised for being NRDS. If players didnt stick their heads in the sand they might actually learn something about the groups around them.
But that's their own problem. Doesn't mean we need a hand holding mechanic like this.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Dirty Forum Alt
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
82
|
Posted - 2016.06.24 16:45:47 -
[10] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:It really depends on the player. And some groups do get recognised for things like honouring ransoms, just like groups get recognised for being NRDS. If players didnt stick their heads in the sand they might actually learn something about the groups around them.
But that's their own problem. Doesn't mean we need a hand holding mechanic like this. I am personally more interested in this mechanic as someone who would like to offer some of my targets the opportunity to pay a ransom and live - but who lacks the fame/reputation to expect any trust, as well as the social engineering skills to spontaneously build trust as the scammers somehow do so often.
As a 1-man-pvp-corp in high sec I am unlikely to ever attain fame/reputation. And of course high-sec is the primary zone of ransom-scams that spoil trust far and wide. So a mechanic like this would really be the only way it would be worth my trying to offer ransoms. |
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Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony The Wraithguard.
344
|
Posted - 2016.06.24 17:16:31 -
[11] - Quote
Not posting on a forum alt might go a long way towards trust.
People hiding behind alts aren't trustworthy in general.
And no, the bumping mach was not fixed: you'd still have to pay ransom to get rid of the throwaway ibis scram ever three minutes, so they can still ask for it with no consequence whatsoever attached to your agreement to his terms.
As Daichi pointed out, some groups are known for their honourable conduct. It's a very real consequence of "being to good guy", as I recall you posted in that thread as well.
I have to admit, I'm 200% with Daichi on this one: you cannot get rid of scamsom any more than any other trickery EvE is well known for. Scam ransom once, shame on you. Scam me twice, shame on me right? |
Dirty Forum Alt
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
82
|
Posted - 2016.06.24 17:36:55 -
[12] - Quote
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:Not posting on a forum alt might go a long way towards trust.
People hiding behind alts aren't trustworthy in general.
And no, the bumping mach was not fixed: you'd still have to pay ransom to get rid of the throwaway ibis scram ever three minutes, so they can still ask for it with no consequence whatsoever attached to your agreement to his terms.
As Daichi pointed out, some groups are known for their honourable conduct. It's a very real consequence of "being to good guy", as I recall you posted in that thread as well.
I have to admit, I'm 200% with Daichi on this one: you cannot get rid of scamsom any more than any other trickery EvE is well known for. Scam ransom once, shame on you. Scam me twice, shame on me right? Well as for using a forum alt - part of it is simple paranoia. And being a strictly solo/small scale high sec pilot whose posts sometimes offend large wardeccing entities I feel that this paranoia is fairly justified. The other reason I prefer to post on an anonymous forum alt however is that I find it amusing how much it offends some people. I do realize that being on a forum alt I can't rely on my own reputation to prove points - but as most of the conversations I interject myself into are regarding general game mechanics with ample 3rd party evidence I rarely find it to be much of a hindrance.
As for the bumping scam - We will see how committed they are to it I suppose. The fact that CCP took 1 step to correct it does imply they'll continue nerfing mechanics like bumping if it continues to be a problem... So it will likely be fixed "Soon"(tm)
As for being a "good guy" - Most people would not consider me a "good guy". I declare war and slaughter people for fun and money. The mere fact that I honour my word in ransoms as in everything else is not going to make anybody consider me a "good guy" - even if I did flaunt it on my main account. I'd still be considered "Pirate/Merc/Ganker/etc Scum" by the majority of high-sec residents with whom I interact, and whom I would be asking for ransoms.
I am also still not convinced that anybody in EVE truly has the reputations you guys think they do. I've been killed by such groups as Ushra'Khan and members of the Provi-bloc in clear violation of their NRDS guidelines in the areas I was killed. i was *NOT* red to them and did *NOT* engage first. And no apology or reparation was ever made. There is not a single entity in EVE to whom I would pay a ransom based on "trust". Is there any that *you* would trust? Really? If they had your most expensive ship tackled and wanted 50% of the value in cash to let you go?
HOWEVER - I do agree that scams, including scam ransoms, are a core part of the game. And no, I don't want to get rid of them. So I'll withdraw my idea, as it is clear I am (as usual) a minority in this desire . Believe it or not although I do occasionally get carried away and troll a bit, I am NOT just a troll on this character, and I'm willing to admit when I am wrong about something like this, for whatever little it is worth.
Fly recklessly o7 |
Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony The Wraithguard.
345
|
Posted - 2016.06.24 20:11:13 -
[13] - Quote
Yea, I admit, after I clicked "post" I too realized how odd that sounded: I consider myself one of the "good guys" because I don't play tricks on people -- even though I'm still out to kill 'em dead LOL
To be fair though, I had a Retriever and a Procurer pointed in providence yesterday. I let them go to go after the armed target instead. I didn't think much of it at the time, but I suppose it's one of those good vs bad guy things again: we only tackle carebears to provoke fights. Fight us, and we let your bears go in a heartbeat to go after the armed escort.
Now, while I don't think reputation is overrated I can't think of anyone who would honour ransoms either. I generally tend to remember the awoxers, the thieves, the scammers, the guys who always have a backup fleet/cyno; as well as those who gave good and fair(~ish) fights or actually spoke out against turncoats and backstabbers. So yes, I do remember which groups / pilots value honourable combat and which ones don't. But I don't think I'd take a chance on ransom because even those whom I consider honourable are too eager for killmails to pass up on a good tackle.
Wholly agreed on Provi's NRDS policy by the way - merely looking like a pirate is enough even when you're not on the KOS list. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1267
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Posted - 2016.06.24 22:55:33 -
[14] - Quote
Some Amarr trollo-bears have decced our whole alliance yesterday for the third time in 6 months. Zero poo given.
But okay I'll ignore you.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
820
|
Posted - 2016.06.25 03:15:16 -
[15] - Quote
A 1 min timer being the individuals is ok. Enough time to gtfo and the ransomee can't just shoot back anyway. Every other individual either in fleet or not is for the purposes of the mechanic a 3rd party. Ergo it functions kind of like duels now but instead of allowing legal combat between two people it specifically disallows it between those two people with no effect on anyone else. |
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