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Captain Tardbar
Sunken Ships
1156
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Posted - 2016.07.04 03:32:58 -
[1] - Quote
I had debate about survivability in hi-sec about the nature of the Skiff.
I suppose I have seen code kills of Skiffs, but most of them were either badly fitted or had really expensive mods (like faction and pirate).
And from experience I mined ice all through the great ice interdiction of 2013 (or was it 2014?) and watched as many other mining barges died while I mine. Even watched a few freighters and orca deaths, but no Skiffs to my recollection.
Which brings me to a second point...
People still refuse to mine in Skiffs even after I advised them not to. I watched someone die in a retriever today. Added a corpse to my collection today.
That said, if Skiffs were affordable to gank, why are there are there still the bot fleets whom everyone hates from the miners to the gankers yet they still purge the belts of ice with impunity?
Well this is a round about way of starting a discussion about skiff ganking.
Do you gank skiffs? How often? Are they just badly fitted or can you gank the 60K EHP ones?
And on top of that, how much would it cost a merc corp to purge an ice belt of a bot fleet of skiffs? I know this would take a great deal of effort and you would get more bang for your buck ganking the orca or freighter?
How much does ganking an empty freighter cost these days anyways?
Would the normal 600 mil cover the cost? Or would this be a special case as most bot fleets are in NPC corps?
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
16598
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Posted - 2016.07.04 03:45:07 -
[2] - Quote
bot fleets tend to be wise to wars, you can dec them but they usually drop to npc or just continuously dodge before the decs go live in my experience anyway.
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Mike Adoulin
Adolescent Radioactive Pirate Hamsters
1808
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Posted - 2016.07.04 05:26:27 -
[3] - Quote
^^^^
This.
It's so easy to avoid a wardec that basically only the uninformed get caught by them.
The hard-core botters usually never leave their starter corp, for Chribba's sake.
As for popping Skiffs.....it can (and is) done, but there are so many easier targets out that it rarely happens.
Unless the target has managed to anger quite a few folks...:)
Basically it takes lots of Talo's and Tornado's.
Everything in EVE is a trap.
And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)
You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.
Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
2602
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Posted - 2016.07.04 06:29:34 -
[4] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote:People still refuse to mine in Skiffs even after I advised them not to. I watched someone die in a retriever today. Added a corpse to my collection today.
That said, if Skiffs were affordable to gank, why are there are there still the bot fleets whom everyone hates from the miners to the gankers yet they still purge the belts of ice with impunity?
Well this is a round about way of starting a discussion about skiff ganking.
Do you gank skiffs? How often? Are they just badly fitted or can you gank the 60K EHP ones? No-one regularly ganks Skiffs. They are economically immune to ganks. Miner ganking in general has been made unprofitable, but the math makes Skiffs very unappealing. A typical T2-fit exhumer will drop 10M ISK so if you can kill a Hulk or Mackinaw and retreive your own dropped loot, you can turn a profit. A tiny profit of 10-20M ISK/hour, but at least you can break even. On paper an untanked Skiff require a minimum of 4 perfect gank Catalysts, but in the real world, more like 6-8 so you are loosing 50-100M ISK per gank even if you have fleet of sufficient size to even try to attack. A tanked Skiff can go up into freighter territory of 20+ gank destroyers and would cost well more than the value of the Skiff, let alone the loot drop, and require rarely seen fleet sizes.
So no, there is nothing you can do to attack the Skiff fleets other than try to out-compete them at their own game. It's actually a good example of why there should be no safe spaces in a sandbox game as veteran players just abuse the safety to out-compete the new and casual miners who can't or won't multibox 10 accounts. I'm not sure why CCP thinks miners should be treated so special to be able to remove themselves from the sandbox gameplay they are developing, but the safety the highsec miner enjoy is clearly intentional on the part of CCP. They killed any ability to gank profitably during the barge rebalance on purpose, and then made the Skiff/Procurer so economically punitive to gank, it almost never happens: the only Skiff losses in highec are due to wars.
Captain Tardbar wrote:And on top of that, how much would it cost a merc corp to purge an ice belt of a bot fleet of skiffs? I know this would take a great deal of effort and you would get more bang for your buck ganking the orca or freighter?
How much does ganking an empty freighter cost these days anyways?
Would the normal 600 mil cover the cost? Or would this be a special case as most bot fleets are in NPC corps? Given there is no reason to be in a corporation to mine, wars are near-useless against Skiff fleets. Sure, you can catch the odd person out if they don't notice a war, but given that wars are consensual and you can avoid them at any time by just dropping corp, I doubt any mercenary group will be able to follow through on such a contract. They would have to resort to ganking, and that would be very costly as outlined above. If they are tanked, you are looking at 200M+ to gank each Skiff in direct expenses alone, not to mention the time of the 20 person fleet, the cost of dealing with security status and killrights.
Ganking an empty freighter is even more expensive. If it isn't tanked, it won't be much more than a Skiff but if they tank it, it will take 1-2 B ISK in Taloses.
So in short, it ain't feasible unless you have a fleet of 100 players willing to shoot industrial ships with you in highsec in T1 destroyers for free. There are no groups of sufficient size to take your contract for any price that you would deem reasonable, and the cost in gank ships would exceed the economic cost you inflict on your enemy by exploding their Skiffs.
Why Do They Gank?
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Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
259
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Posted - 2016.07.04 09:57:32 -
[5] - Quote
Yes they can be ganked. A notorious group has been successful doing it. They can bring the 10-15 ships required, and do their homework on the damage types. If you leave a resist hole (EM) and fit for yield (no DCU), you are susceptible. That extra Mining Upgrade must really be worth it. People are their own worst enemy
Carry on
edit, "Gummy Bears" |
Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony The Wraithguard.
368
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Posted - 2016.07.04 10:05:41 -
[6] - Quote
Actually, I think a Procurer is less cost-effective to gank.
Take down a Skiff, at least you have a 260 mil killmail on your hands. We all know you don't gank miners for profit anyway-- you didn't really need that Scordite so badly now, did ya?
Procurers have similar tanks, cost only 35 mil and insurance covers around 28. |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
2604
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Posted - 2016.07.04 10:27:08 -
[7] - Quote
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:Actually, I think a Procurer is less cost-effective to gank.
Take down a Skiff, at least you have a 260 mil killmail on your hands. We all know you don't gank miners for profit anyway-- you didn't really need that Scordite so badly now, did ya?
Procurers have similar tanks, cost only 35 mil and insurance covers around 28. Neither of them can be ganked economically when tanked which was question the OP raised. You cannot disrupt your rivals mining operation without taking a significant loss if they tank their Skiff/Procurers. Therefore, there is nothing you can do to disrupt a large multiboxing operation that is hogging an ice belt or otherwise taking what you view as your resources.
Those are the numbers. If you want to gank them to make a point or for the challenge you can of course, no ship is ungankable, but there is no way you, or mercenaries you may hire, can remove them without taking a bigger loss than they inflict which is what the OP wanted to do. They are economically immune to attack by you.
Best bet is to turn it up to 11 and try to out-compete them. Use yield-fit Hulks and twice as many exhumers to grab all the ice before your opponent can fill their hold, hiring mercs or bringing friends to supply ECM support if you think they may try to gank you. Do this enough and they will move on.
But even in highsec ice is in excess and there are belts up all the time. It's probably easier to just move somewhere quieter than try to contest the resource. This seems like a serious flaw in designing a game where players are suppose to compete, but the situation is clearly intentional on CCP's part. I am not sure how they think supporting perfectly safe multiboxing Skiff fleets make the game any better, but there it is.
If you are a new or solo miner, your time would be better spent doing some more dangerous niche mining, rather than trying to compete with or disrupt the multiboxers. Beat them paying attention to increase your yield by using riskier fits or mining in riskier space.
Why Do They Gank?
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Morgan Agrivar
Peace.Keepers
352
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Posted - 2016.07.04 12:24:58 -
[8] - Quote
I took out a war target mining in a Skiff. Does that count?
This would cure me of the fear...
CCP Explorer liked you forum post. Now my life is complete...
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Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
12500
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Posted - 2016.07.04 17:04:41 -
[9] - Quote
Morgan Agrivar wrote:I took out a war target mining in a Skiff. Does that count?
Much better if you can get kills in a Skiff instead. I'm now trying MTU destruction with one in the hopes of baiting a MR into fighting me. Fingers crossed!
Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .
Bumble's Space Log
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Morgan Agrivar
Peace.Keepers
352
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Posted - 2016.07.05 03:10:22 -
[10] - Quote
Bumblefck wrote:Morgan Agrivar wrote:I took out a war target mining in a Skiff. Does that count? Much better if you can get kills in a Skiff instead. I'm now trying MTU destruction with one in the hopes of baiting a MR into fighting me. Fingers crossed! Let me know if it works out for you. When you see my killboard, I have tried but I think most of them were bots cause they refused to engage me.
This would cure me of the fear...
CCP Explorer liked you forum post. Now my life is complete...
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Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
12510
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Posted - 2016.07.05 18:40:08 -
[11] - Quote
Morgan Agrivar wrote:Bumblefck wrote:Morgan Agrivar wrote:I took out a war target mining in a Skiff. Does that count? Much better if you can get kills in a Skiff instead. I'm now trying MTU destruction with one in the hopes of baiting a MR into fighting me. Fingers crossed! Let me know if it works out for you. When you see my killboard, I have tried but I think most of them were bots cause they refused to engage me.
I am trying my best (on my other guy, Gorki Andropov), and will certainly do - it's not easy, as most of them run as soon as you yellow box. I did have a guy in a Dominix shoot at me before he fled yesterday, but it was just a noobie. Oh well :)
Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .
Bumble's Space Log
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Tengu Grib
Rabble Inc. Rabble Alliance
1533
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Posted - 2016.07.05 21:05:54 -
[12] - Quote
https://zkillboard.com/kill/39855159/
That's a link to me and a couple friends killing a skiff in the days before ISBoxer broadcasting was banned.
Skiffs can be ganked, but as you guessed, it's generally poorly fit ones, or ones with expensive modules. As Black Pedro pointed out the manpower required is rather difficult to acquire with any sort of regularity. And if you have that kind of manpower available, Freighters are significantly more profitable and vastly more abundant (than skiffs fit with enough modules to be profitable to gank).
So again as Black Pedro pointed out, Skiffs are financially invulnerable. The only way you'll lose one to a gank is one of the following
- Fit it exceptionally poorly
- Fit it exceptionally blingy
- Annoy someone to the point they don't care about the finances
And even if you do one of those things, skiffs have pretty reasonable align times and agility as well as base movement speed (for a mining ship) so your chances of evading a gank while the gankers are in warp or starting to land is still pretty reasonable.
Tl;Dr You have to try pretty hard to lose a Skiff to a gank and no, killing them en-masse is not viable at all. CCP has rendered them effectively financially invulnerable.
Rabble Rabble Rabble
Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.
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shootyou longtyme
Systems High Guard Tactical Narcotics Team
6
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Posted - 2016.07.06 02:05:28 -
[13] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Do you gank skiffs? How often? Are they just badly fitted or can you gank the 60K EHP ones?
And on top of that, how much would it cost a merc corp to purge an ice belt of a bot fleet of skiffs? I know this would take a great deal of effort and you would get more bang for your buck ganking the orca or freighter?
How much does ganking an empty freighter cost these days anyways?
Would the normal 600 mil cover the cost? Or would this be a special case as most bot fleets are in NPC corps?
OP, It sounds like you may be looking for someone? If you are shopping for someone to suicide gank for you beacuse your targets are in NPC corps, contact me in game.
I think a few of your corp mates know us. https://zkillboard.com/kill/54880455/ |
Dirty Forum Alt
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
134
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Posted - 2016.07.06 14:27:09 -
[14] - Quote
Bumblefck wrote:Morgan Agrivar wrote:Bumblefck wrote:Morgan Agrivar wrote:I took out a war target mining in a Skiff. Does that count? Much better if you can get kills in a Skiff instead. I'm now trying MTU destruction with one in the hopes of baiting a MR into fighting me. Fingers crossed! Let me know if it works out for you. When you see my killboard, I have tried but I think most of them were bots cause they refused to engage me. I am trying my best (on my other guy, Gorki Andropov), and will certainly do - it's not easy, as most of them run as soon as you yellow box. I did have a guy in a Dominix shoot at me before he fled yesterday, but it was just a noobie. Oh well :) You have some stiff competition in becoming king of skiff warfare: https://zkillboard.com/ship/22546/topalltime/
It actually has pretty comparable stats to any of the Heavy Assault Cruisers....but in my experience people are more scared of the skiff... |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1888
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Posted - 2016.07.06 15:12:52 -
[15] - Quote
I would suggest that you go to Zkill and check out Otela, there you will see that Skiffs have been ganked, they take about 6 to 8 Catalysts if insufficiently tanked. If properly tanked you are talking 12 - 16 at 16 that is 136m of ganking ships. You will see one there yesterday but go back a couple of weeks and you will see more. 20 if they have the max tank and boosts.
CCP have the viewpoint that it should not be profitable to gank a ship purely with a normal T2 fit for profit. So it has to be part of a campaign or that you really want to kill that person.
People will chose the other ships because of yield and ease of use, for example a Retreiver is cheap and if they are ganked rarely then it is no issue, using one in Osmon for example is just asking for a loss mail.
Maybe the Kusions will be interested, they seem to be very proficient...
COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
2642
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Posted - 2016.07.06 18:44:00 -
[16] - Quote
The economical reason is one thing why it is rarely done, the other thing is that it is stupid from a gameplay perspective.
I mean try to motivate 15-20 guys for a fleet to kill Skiffs when the same fleet size is perfectly capable of killing much juicier targets like Orcas and Freighters. Keep in mind that a Ganker can only strike every 15min, so if you want to entertain them and keep the people in fleet you have to present them worthy targets and not some simple mining barge.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1888
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Posted - 2016.07.07 07:21:59 -
[17] - Quote
This ia what I would do about bot Skiffs in ice belts.
First of all lets have all the prates now attacking hisec, so we have battleship rats and the Dread ones too.
The pirates are especially focussed on the ice belts and have a much great tendency to drop their dreads on the ice belts, also if CCP has rats come in there continuously so the bots cannot use simplistic in come rats get out.
Problem solved and more interesting gameplay to boot
COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
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Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
251
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Posted - 2016.07.08 20:20:35 -
[18] - Quote
Don't the bot mining fleets usually have an orca sitting around somewhere?
A signature :o
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1891
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Posted - 2016.07.08 20:33:03 -
[19] - Quote
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:Don't the bot mining fleets usually have an orca sitting around somewhere?
Yeah but CODE are so disillusioned by the sight of Skiffs that they are beaten before they are started...
COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
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Dirk Magnum
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
536
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Posted - 2016.07.09 15:05:39 -
[20] - Quote
The Skiff is a Code-compliant vessel, unless fit only for yield. If the carebear attempts to deceive New Order agents in such a way, they will eventually get what's coming to them.
But yes in general, Skiffs and Procurers are uneconomical targets for ganking, and pretty annoying to deal with in general. I capped out a Skiff in lowsec and let my Pilgrim's drones eat away at it for several minutes before a corpmate of the target warped in with a Gila and forced me off the field. Skiff was in deep structure, but unless he was passive resist fit, he only had his native resists to go on. Very frustrating.
-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á "LIVE FAST DIE."
- traditional Minmatar ethos [citation needed]
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Saeger1737
Bite the pillow Archetype.
1616
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Posted - 2016.07.09 15:19:20 -
[21] - Quote
Like beating up an elephant with a sock.... your only going to kill it with time.
MERC WITH A MOUTH, Send me DPS and my fleet will double it back! Special offer!
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Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
5867
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Posted - 2016.07.16 10:24:03 -
[22] - Quote
Even a well-fitted Skiff can be ganked, but a fleet capable of doing so is probably also capable of blowing up Orcas.
I'm actually OK with Skiffs being as durable as they are - if they had a lesser yield to compensate for it. The tradeoff of yield (compared to a Hulk) is too small to merit all those EHP.
I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
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Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics CODE.
1053
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Posted - 2016.07.18 19:18:28 -
[23] - Quote
Are all anti-gankers incapable of writing a coherent sentence, or what's the deal there?
Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
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Crinnfika
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
14
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Posted - 2016.07.19 00:29:05 -
[24] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote: It's actually a good example of why there should be no safe spaces in a sandbox game as veteran players just abuse the safety to out-compete the new and casual miners who can't or won't multibox 10 accounts. I'm not sure why CCP thinks miners should be treated so special to be able to remove themselves from the sandbox gameplay they are developing, but the safety the highsec miner enjoy is clearly intentional on the part of CCP.
Making highsec less safe for miners would actually hurt new miners much more than veteran multiboxers. New players by virtue of being new are much more vulnerable to ganks since they don't know how to watch out for, and tend to have bad tanks.
I've been in several indy corps over the years. old vets are never the ones that get killed, it's always the new ones that don't realize how vulnerable their shiny new retriever is, or why that cheap expendable frigate was poking around their mining belt.
Oh and ganks hit new miners way harder than veterans since new miners don't have the isk stockpile to absorb losses.
Additionally if highsec mining becomes more vulnerable then CCP needs to rebalance mining income since income level of highsec mining is so low compared the cost of barges and exhumers. |
Morgan Agrivar
Peace.Keepers
365
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Posted - 2016.07.19 03:02:08 -
[25] - Quote
Crinnfika wrote:Black Pedro wrote: It's actually a good example of why there should be no safe spaces in a sandbox game as veteran players just abuse the safety to out-compete the new and casual miners who can't or won't multibox 10 accounts. I'm not sure why CCP thinks miners should be treated so special to be able to remove themselves from the sandbox gameplay they are developing, but the safety the highsec miner enjoy is clearly intentional on the part of CCP. Making highsec less safe for miners would actually hurt new miners much more than veteran multiboxers. New players by virtue of being new are much more vulnerable to ganks since they don't know how to watch out for, and tend to have bad tanks. I've been in several indy corps over the years. old vets are never the ones that get killed, it's always the new ones that don't realize how vulnerable their shiny new retriever is, or why that cheap expendable frigate was poking around their mining belt. Oh and ganks hit new miners way harder than veterans since new miners don't have the isk stockpile to absorb losses. Additionally if highsec mining becomes more vulnerable then CCP needs to rebalance mining income since income level of highsec mining is so low compared the cost of barges and exhumers. How can highsec miners be more protected than right now except for just making their ships invulnerable? The nerfs to what gankers do and the buffs given to the carebears has turned the favor towards the afkers.
Gankers are not going away, no matter what more nerfs/buffs CCP decides to throw at it. I am not sure they are even trying to find a happy medium. I sometimes gank on Morgan and an alt 1) To keep my security status below 5.0 and 2) Because I can. Why take away from my fun to protect someone who mostly isn't even at their keyboard while mining?
When I do a gank and I find out they are not afk, I give them enough isk (and a fit for their mining ship/barge) to better protect themselves. If they are afk and they contact me, I give them half the isk (and the fit) and tell them to stay at their keyboard when mining because that is the right thing to do.
If I am not contacted, they don't get jack **** from me and deserved what happened to them.
This would cure me of the fear...
CCP Explorer liked you forum post. Now my life is complete...
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
2628
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Posted - 2016.07.19 06:07:18 -
[26] - Quote
Crinnfika wrote:Making highsec less safe for miners would actually hurt new miners much more than veteran multiboxers. New players by virtue of being new are much more vulnerable to ganks since they don't know how to watch out for, and tend to have bad tanks. How would it be less safe for them? Allowing players to remove themselves as economically viable targets simply by flying a Skiff means that gankers focus all their attention on new players (and veteran players who are chasing more yield or a larger ore hold). Given new players don't fly Skiffs, I don't see how making Skiffs less attractive to fly is going to put new players at more risk. If anything, by making veterans viable targets again they would be more safe from attack.
But the real impact on new players is not the rare chance they might get ganked and lose a ship they can replace in a hour or two of mining. It is the economic problem they face competing with bot/bot-aspirant/multiboxing fleets who drive down the price of their efforts. If you allow 100% economic safety from ganking as a Skiff fleet has, it allows a rich veterans to scale up their efforts in parallel out-competing new players for gathering ore. If such a fleet was at least at some risk, the multiboxer would have to trade-off safety vs. attention vs. effort to run such an operation. As it is, there is no trade-off or downside to just running as many Skiffs as your patience and computer hardware will allow as there is no risk of interference from other players.
New players are griefed out of the game, or at least the mining profession, by such veterans who make it impossible for a new miner to make a competitive living. So they go do something else and highsec belts just end up full of silent, multi-boxing Skiff fleets and the game suffers for it.
Crinnfika wrote:I've been in several indy corps over the years. old vets are never the ones that get killed, it's always the new ones that don't realize how vulnerable their shiny new retriever is, or why that cheap expendable frigate was poking around their mining belt.
Oh and ganks hit new miners way harder than veterans since new miners don't have the isk stockpile to absorb losses.
Additionally if highsec mining becomes more vulnerable then CCP needs to rebalance mining income since income level of highsec mining is so low compared the cost of barges and exhumers. Highsec mining, and mining in general pay so poorly because of the ease of multiboxing. The economic safety of Skiffs in highsec just exacerbates the problem, and makes it tougher to get into the game.
The solution is to make mining more active, or at least more involved so that multiboxing invulnerable exhumers is not the most efficient, or only, way to compete. Invulnerable mining boosts (than only veterans have) need to go, and perhaps the new Drilling Platforms will allow more choice of how to mine and allow miners that take more risk or invest more effort to out-compete the Skiff fleets.
CCP really needs to re-think the whole thing, including the safety/yield balance of Skiffs, if they want mining to be a profession new players can compete in, and that has more interesting gameplay than just fielding as many Skiffs as possible. You should be able to mine relatively safely in this game, but multiboxing Skiffs in absolute safety should not be a viable way to mine, let alone the most efficient and profitable. There should be reasons to take risks, spend effort, and to to invest in vulnerable infrastructure, so that actual gameplay takes place.
Why Do They Gank?
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1908
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Posted - 2016.07.19 06:19:07 -
[27] - Quote
All these gankers whining and asking for a nerf of the Skiff, jeeez can't you just HTFU...
I don't know what systems you lot are looking in, but I see more than just skiffs and I never see multi boxing fleets of skiffs where I am.
Skiff's are for the discerning Eve player and are perfectly fine...
COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
2628
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Posted - 2016.07.19 07:26:48 -
[28] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:All these gankers whining and asking for a nerf of the Skiff, jeeez can't you just HTFU... I'm not sure why you think I am whining. This whole thread is the result of the OP asking what he can do to disrupt a Skiff fleet and answer is: nothing, they are economically immune to him. That is clearly intentional on the part of CCP, but as a result incentivizes solo, AFK and non-interactive gameplay, and hurts new players who are out-competed by veterans with their invulnerable Skiffs and mining boosts.
Thankfully, invulnerable mining boosts that add no real gameplay but benefits established veterans at no effort and no risk are on the way out. I can understand why you personally would want a ship that is economically nonviable to gank, yet provides a competitive yield to the other ships, but I would think you would at least consider the plight of the new and solo player, who has to fight the multiboxers to scratch out a living that is a fraction of what they could make exploring or missioning or doing anything else.
It's unfair to push all the risk onto new miners and yet let Skiff fleets keep all the reward. While the Skiff could use a slight nerf to yield (or the other two a slight buff), I think the real answer is adding more active and interactive forms of mining that allow a single account player to significantly increase their yield by active play or taking on more risk. I have high hopes that the Drilling Platform might be one of those mechanisms where a small group of active miners can out-compete with the Skiff fleets by deploying and defending infrastructure. I'd also love to see additional forms of more complex mining, like comet or perhaps a complete revamp of moon-mining, that allow a dedicated player to beat the efficiency of the AFKers and multiboxers by actually playing the game, instead of watching Netflix while they mine many accounts.
Why Do They Gank?
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1908
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Posted - 2016.07.19 07:43:44 -
[29] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Dracvlad wrote:All these gankers whining and asking for a nerf of the Skiff, jeeez can't you just HTFU... I'm not sure why you think I am whining. This whole thread is the result of the OP asking what he can do to disrupt a Skiff fleet and answer is: nothing, they are economically immune to him. That is clearly intentional on the part of CCP, but as a result incentivizes solo, AFK and non-interactive gameplay, and hurts new players who are out-competed by veterans with their invulnerable Skiffs and mining boosts. Thankfully, invulnerable mining boosts that add no real gameplay but benefits established veterans at no effort and no risk are on the way out. I can understand why you personally would want a ship that is economically nonviable to gank, yet provides a competitive yield to the other ships, but I would think you would at least consider the plight of the new and solo player, who has to fight the multiboxers to scratch out a living that is a fraction of what they could make exploring or missioning or doing anything else. It's unfair to push all the risk onto new miners and yet let Skiff fleets keep all the reward. While the Skiff could use a slight nerf to yield (or the other two a slight buff), I think the real answer is adding more active and interactive forms of mining that allow a single account player to significantly increase their yield by active play or taking on more risk. I have high hopes that the Drilling Platform might be one of those mechanisms where a small group of active miners can out-compete with the Skiff fleets by deploying and defending infrastructure. I'd also love to see additional forms of more complex mining, like comet or perhaps a complete revamp of moon-mining, that allow a dedicated player to beat the efficiency of the AFKers and multiboxers by actually playing the game, instead of watching Netflix while they mine many accounts.
People like me use the Skiff because we need the tank and we have a cost in yield already because we fit a tank. Also remember when you say that it is not economic to gank that CCP think that ganking a ship and its fit if T2 fitted is not supposed to be profitable to gank. A Skiff is not invulnerable, it can be ganked. Other people said to gank the Orca, you guys are good at ganking, if they want to go against someone they just need the will to do it.
Outside of the heavily ganked areas people use Mackinaws, Hulks, Retrivers and the odd Coveter as well as Procurers and Skiffs. They use Skiffs en masse in heavikly ganked regions because they have to.
A new player can get into a Procurer and then train for a Skiff, you don't gank Procurers much either. But in any case the people who get ganked the most are new players, if you did care about them you would not gank them and up your efforts on the vets, but you don't. Furthermore as you chaps have pointed out so many times on other threads Eve is not fair, why does it suddenly matter when it comes to a mining ship that those who want to be hard to kill have a choice to jump into. The small cargo bay is a pain and the yield impact is an impact and builds up in cost.
I would leave it as it is, but the Drilling Platform approach is something I agree with however.
COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
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Morgan Agrivar
Peace.Keepers
365
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Posted - 2016.07.19 07:51:00 -
[30] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:I don't know what systems you lot are looking in, but I see more than just skiffs and I never see multi boxing fleets of skiffs where I am.
Then you need to get out of your system more. When I go MTU hunting, I come across a lot of Skiff fleets with Orca support sitting at a station. In fact, there was a large Skiff fleet stripping belts in Manatirid, who basically ignored me as I started bumping one of them away from an asteroid just yesterday.
They are out there...go forth, young padawan.
This would cure me of the fear...
CCP Explorer liked you forum post. Now my life is complete...
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