Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Scuzzy Logic
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
152
|
Posted - 2016.07.05 14:40:02 -
[1] - Quote
With the advent of Salvage Drones and MTUs, the advantages that the Noctis brought to a salvage operation have been significantly diminished.
In most situations, a destroyer will get the job faster than a Noctis by having the mission runner deploy a few ''Magpie'' MTUs and blaze through the salvage just as fast while having faster align and travel times.
Not to mention that a Destroyer is far easier to transport logistically and is rigged for far less.
Considering that the Rorqal, a ship with similar issues, is getting a major rework, it's time we take a look at the issues with the other forsaken ORE child.
Lets break it down:
Quote: 5% bonus to Tractor Beam and Salvager cycle time and 60% bonus to Tractor Beam range and velocity per level
Assuming level 5 skills, a Noctis can salvage 25% faster and has essentially unlimited tractor beam range if you can lock the target.
- The 25% cycle time is rather lackluster when you consider the Noctis takes an inordinate amount of time to target lock a wreck.
- Being able to tractor as far as the eye can see is nice, but largely pointless due to the hull's sensor range and the fact that most MTUs will tractor the biggest sleeper and mission sites even when poorly positioned.
- 1460 m3 cargo is larger than what destroyers can carry. However, due to how slow the Noctis is, it is rarely deployed far from its staging system while destroyers can run off and come back by the time the typical mission runner has completed another Level IV.
- Destroyers are fast, agile and have a small sig radius. The Noctis is large, aligns like a T1 industrial and has a tank like one too.
Now, I'm no genius when it comes to new ideas for how to rebalance ships, but here's a few ideas I could come up with:
- Make the Noctis into a ninja-salvaging ship worthy of its name by giving it massive signal strength in addition to a scanning bonus (or at least a fitting bonus like T3 detroyers have). A Nestor-like mass reduction would also be nice, considering how little cargo space is actually in the Noctis.
- Give the Noctis a specialized AoE tractor. (A similar module could be given to the Rorqal too.)
- Give the Noctis significantly faster lock times.
- Increase wreck access difficulty across the board, giving bonused hulls like the exploration frigates and the Noctis a relative advantage. (May require additional salvage drone balancing)
- Give the Noctis and T1 Exploration Frigates significant access difficulty bonuses to make their salvage time much better.
- Allow the Noctis to fit Link modules?
- Give the Noctis the additional role of it's Primae predecessor as a PI ship with a large planetary materials bay.
- Make the Noctis into an on-grid salvager by increasing its tank to Battlecruiser levels and giving it remote sensor/tracking link bonuses or repair drone bonuses. Again, very Nestor-like.
- Create a ''Salvage bay'' for the Noctis, turning it into a true industrial.
- Give the Noctis a refitting bay like the Nestor? (Now I'm just outright stealing from SoE)
Last but not least, what I personally would do to the Noctis:
Quote:
- Give the Noctis a large ore bay (proportionate to its size relative to the Endurance, Sacling with Ore Industrial level like a Miasmos) and the ability to fit 5 (bonused?) T2 gas harvesters.
(with no bonus to mining lasers, making the gas yield about 1.25x that of a Venture once you have Gas Harvesting V sounds balanced if you can carry the whole gas site in your hold with 45'000 m3 of ore hold at and Ore Industrial V, just short of the Miasmos and Orca)
Wormhole dwellers and (now that boosters are legal, nullsec booster makers) have been begging for the ''Hulk'' of gas mining for a while. Considering how the Noctis is designed as a giant space vacuum cleaner, it just makes sense lore-wise that ORE / Upwell would tweak the design after the legalization of neural boosters.
Anyways, that's my 5 cents. |
Scuzzy Logic
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
152
|
Posted - 2016.07.05 14:46:13 -
[2] - Quote
Reserved |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
893
|
Posted - 2016.07.05 15:10:28 -
[3] - Quote
I agree the Noctis needs help, not sure your ideas are what it needs but I will not comment on any of them.
For now you get this.
An unscripted sebo will solve both the lock time and target range problem. A single cargo expander will solve the bay space problem as long as you dock and empty every couple of missions.
|
Scuzzy Logic
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
152
|
Posted - 2016.07.05 15:21:11 -
[4] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:I agree the Noctis needs help, not sure your ideas are what it needs but I will not comment on any of them.
For now you get this.
An unscripted sebo will solve both the lock time and target range problem. A single cargo expander will solve the bay space problem as long as you dock and empty every couple of missions.
The thing is that a destroyer does just that, though. With 2 medium slots It leaves the Noctis with a cap-unstable prop mod to get between rooms and no tank.
While the bay is decent and adding a CE2 to it makes it a lot more liveable, the point I was making is that you usually dock a lot anyways, making destroyers still the better choice unless there is high-bulk salvage I'm not aware of.
I do agree that I don't actually know what the current ''need'' for the noctis is. Mostly because people just fly destroyers and look at me funny when I pass my Noctis through wormholes and they see me on Dscan. |
Mingja
Perkone Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2016.07.05 17:50:26 -
[5] - Quote
I can't really see how the noctis needs help (no offense intended). It still salvages 10 times faster than an MTU with salvage drones, given piloted actively.
MTU + Salvage drones takes AGES compared to a 5-3 noctis with an active pilot behind it. |
Elenahina
agony unleashed Agony Empire
947
|
Posted - 2016.07.05 18:33:19 -
[6] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:I agree the Noctis needs help, not sure your ideas are what it needs but I will not comment on any of them.
For now you get this.
An unscripted sebo will solve both the lock time and target range problem. A single cargo expander will solve the bay space problem as long as you dock and empty every couple of missions.
I actually have a sebo on my Noctis. Honestly, the only bottleneck it has is the speed of the operator, not the ship.
Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you.
|
Iain Cariaba
3147
|
Posted - 2016.07.05 21:28:13 -
[7] - Quote
Scuzzy Logic wrote:With the advent of Salvage Drones and MTUs, the advantages that the Noctis brought to a salvage operation have been significantly diminished. Didn't read past your first sentence. As wrong as that sentence, nothing that followed it would be good.
Salvage drones are garbage, plain and simple. They have absolutely no redeeming qualities if you can use the salvager module, because it's faster and more profitable to bring in an unbonused salvage destroyer than it is to use salvage drones.
MTU used in conjunction with a Noctis is pure gold. Drop the MTU at the beginning of each mission room. Depending on how fast you clear the rooms, the MTU will have most of the wrecks already gathered. You can also bookmark the MTU, leave it there, and salvage several rooms at a run. It's even possible, if you use an alt for salvaging, to put that alt in a fast aligning frigate, and have it drop off MTUs.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
|
Scuzzy Logic
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
152
|
Posted - 2016.07.05 21:37:05 -
[8] - Quote
You guys keep proving my point. MTUs and destroyers do that job faster.
In wormholes, due to the looming threat of PvP, the Noctis is a truly bad choice at its intended job when compared to a destroyer.
I actually use a Dragoon as my salvager currently. I do the BC and larger wrecks while my drones take care of the small fry.
There is very little incentive to use a Noctis when you can go through every room, drop an MTU in every one, then come back with your 4-6 salvagers and harvest.
Basically, since the Tractor part of the Noctis is kind of redundant and the salvager part is better served by the more nimble destroyer, there isn't much left for the Noctis to fill...
|
Scuzzy Logic
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
152
|
Posted - 2016.07.05 21:40:02 -
[9] - Quote
Elenahina wrote: Honestly, the only bottleneck it has is the speed of the operator, not the ship.
The slow movement and align speed of the Noctis is my bottleneck when doing multiple rooms or following a roaming gang. It's pretty bad when the DST transporting ammunition and jump fuel is more agile than you are. |
Iain Cariaba
3147
|
Posted - 2016.07.05 22:34:38 -
[10] - Quote
Scuzzy Logic wrote:due to the looming threat of PvP, ... Your own fear of losing the ship does not make the ship pointless.
Yes, a destroyer is cheaper than a Noctis and can also mount 8 salvagers. With a Noctis, however, that 5% per level reduction in salvager cycle time means a Noctis will flat out salvage faster than your destroyer.
The choice is yours to make. The Noctis does not need a buff. Outside wormholes, they are incredibly good in their role.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
|
|
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
898
|
Posted - 2016.07.06 14:43:49 -
[11] - Quote
Mingja wrote:I can't really see how the noctis needs help (no offense intended). It still salvages 10 times faster than an MTU with salvage drones, given piloted actively. I disagree with you and will use the reverse of the one of Iain Cariaba favorite posts. Because it is good does not mean that it could not or should not be better.
Scuzzy Logic wrote:You guys keep proving my point. MTUs and destroyers do that job faster.
In wormholes, due to the looming threat of PvP, the Noctis is a truly bad choice at its intended job when compared to a destroyer No you cannot get the job done faster with an MTU and a destroyer, at least not if you know how to fit and how to use your Noctis properly. Even if you leave MTU's behind to collect the stuff and then come back later the reduced cycle time combined with the greater access bonus offered by the Noctis boosted with an intelligent placement of your MTU and you can clear a pocket considerably faster than a salvage destroyer can. One of the keys is moving while you salvage using the boosted range of the tractors on the Noctis.
Worm holes are an entirely different situation compared to normal salvaging of PvE content, yet even there the Noctis is the superior tool for the job provided you are willing to take the risks. And as Iain Cariaba points out your refusal to accept the risks associated with the use of a Noctis does not mean the ship is not the best for the job. And yes I did live worms holes for several years and yes we did use a Noctis instead of destroyers because they were the superior tool, and yes we did loose a few of them in the process but you simply build more and move on.
Going back to my original post and having had some time to actually think about this there are a couple of changes I think the Noctis needs. We will start with increased bonuses to all aspects of the tractor and salvage beams here are my thoughts with numbers based on an all applicable skills 5 pilot. Tractor beam duration 7.5% per level up from the current 5% drops cycle time from 3.75 sec. to 3.125 sec. Tractor beam range 70% per level up from the current 60% boost range from 96k to 108k. Salvage beam duration 7.5% per level up from the current 5% reduces cycle time from 7.5 sec to 6.25 sec. OR an increase of 7.5% per level to salvage beam range which would increase it from 6k for the T2 to 8.25k.
Align time is another point made by the OP so let us take a look at that. If we use pilots with the minimum skills to fly the empty hull for determining the align time, and then divide the ships mass by it's align time to get a figure that makes comparisons of the ship easy we get these numbers. Iteron V align - 15 sec, mass - 13.5 million kilos, 0.9 sec per million kilos Bestower align - 16.71 sec, mass - 13.5 million kilos, 0.81 sec per million kilos Badger align - 12.39 sec, mass - 10.65 million kilos, 0.86 sec per million kilos Hoarder - align 11.77 sec, mass 10.65 million kilos, 0.90 sec per million kilos Notcits align - 19.08 sec, mass - 14.64 million kilos, .77 sec per million kilos Seems to me the Noctis in a speedy beast when looking at align time versus mass. I sure do not want to see them slow the align time on the Noctis but making it align faster is not justified based on these numbers. And you are correct Scuzzy Logic I did not compare it to the DST why you may ask. Because the Noctis is technically a T1 ship while the DST are T2 and alone that makes a comparison between them ridiculous. |
Sitting Bull Lakota
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
103
|
Posted - 2016.07.08 01:52:02 -
[12] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:MTU used in conjunction with a Noctis is pure gold. Drop the MTU at the beginning of each mission room. Depending on how fast you clear the rooms, the MTU will have most of the wrecks already gathered. You can also bookmark the MTU, leave it there, and salvage several rooms at a run. It's even possible, if you use an alt for salvaging, to put that alt in a fast aligning frigate, and have it drop off MTUs. This is what I've found running anomalies. I keep 3 or 4 mtu's in my alt's svipul and drop one during the first wave while I plug away at the rats. I'll clear three or so anoms this way in about an hour, and I'll finish my night up warping my alt in his noctis to each bookmark and doing the noctis shuffle while watching redlettermedia.
Bing bang boom, 100ish million and a bunch of loot and salvage. Not bad for an hour of pve.
I like the idea of the noctis being a ninja salvaging vessel. I'd like to see that explored further. Maybe give it a faster align time and a fitting bonus to expanded probe launchers. Actually, I'm going to go try that tonight |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2968
|
Posted - 2016.07.08 05:28:13 -
[13] - Quote
I think part of the problem with the Noctis is how easy it is to get along without it. Nerf MTUs, then buff the Noctis. I'd reduce MTU range and towing speed, and increase Noctis scan resolution. The Noctis moves and aligns like a mining barge, and it is a gathering-type industrial, so it might as well have mining barge scan resolution. Could also allow it to fit MMJD. That will let it get to the opposite end of a large site, and it can also be used defensively.
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
|
Specia1 K
State War Academy Caldari State
157
|
Posted - 2016.07.08 09:17:43 -
[14] - Quote
Dont forget the implants. SV-905 (5% increase in salvage chance) EY-1005 (5% cycle time reduction. Good for data/relic modules too.
Otherwise I think the Noctis is just fine. It's ugly and flies like a truck. But it does the job very well (with the proper skills). I have tried the destroyers and MTU, but the Noctis is faster at cycling the salvagers.
If we should ever get T2 salvage drones, maybe I'll see things differently. Sure would make my Astero golden for T2 salvage |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
12523
|
Posted - 2016.07.09 11:12:06 -
[15] - Quote
Don't fix the Noctis - keep people dropping MTUs all over the place. After all, what will I do all the live long day if I can't go floating around blowing them up?
Enquiring minds want to know!
Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .
Bumble's Space Log
|
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
2621
|
Posted - 2016.07.09 15:08:43 -
[16] - Quote
Bumblefck wrote:Don't fix the Noctis - keep people dropping MTUs all over the place. After all, what will I do all the live long day if I can't go floating around blowing them up?
Enquiring minds want to know!
As much as I like this mindset, I do think the Noctis could and should be made better. Some of the ideas the OP has suggested are good and should be implemented.
Scuzzy Logic wrote:Make the Noctis into a ninja-salvaging ship worthy of its name by giving it massive signal strength in addition to a scanning bonus (or at least a fitting bonus like T3 detroyers have). A Nestor-like mass reduction would also be nice, considering how little cargo space is actually in the Noctis.
Give the Noctis significantly faster lock times.
Increase wreck access difficulty across the board, giving bonused hulls like the exploration frigates and the Noctis a relative advantage. (May require additional salvage drone balancing)
Give the Noctis and T1 Exploration Frigates significant access difficulty bonuses to make their salvage time much better.
CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.
|
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2969
|
Posted - 2016.07.09 21:46:35 -
[17] - Quote
Bumblefck wrote:Don't fix the Noctis - keep people dropping MTUs all over the place. After all, what will I do all the live long day if I can't go floating around blowing them up?
Enquiring minds want to know! I don't think making the Noctis popular will make people stop dropping MTUs everywhere. Heck, I bet if MTUs were nerfed into the ground to the point nobody wanted to use them to tractor stuff, they'd still get deployed everywhere because people just like dropping deployables everywhere.
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
|
Specia1 K
State War Academy Caldari State
157
|
Posted - 2016.07.10 10:45:21 -
[18] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Bumblefck wrote:Don't fix the Noctis - keep people dropping MTUs all over the place. After all, what will I do all the live long day if I can't go floating around blowing them up?
Enquiring minds want to know! I don't think making the Noctis popular will make people stop dropping MTUs everywhere. Heck, I bet if MTUs were nerfed into the ground to the point nobody wanted to use them to tractor stuff, they'd still get deployed everywhere because people just like dropping deployables everywhere.
Give the Noctis the ability to pick up other people's MTUs. The same "suspect rules" apply as can stealing (or existing MTU aggression).
edit. Can you cargo scan a MTU? Never tried it. Hmmm... |
DrysonBennington
Eagle's Talon's
284
|
Posted - 2016.07.10 23:41:43 -
[19] - Quote
Make the Noctis a TIII like the TIII Destroyers with the ability to have bonuses for salvaging, hacking and probe launching based on the mode that is selected.
Maybe make it be able to warp while cloaked as well and immune to all W-Space effects as well. |
Iain Cariaba
3152
|
Posted - 2016.07.11 04:37:55 -
[20] - Quote
DrysonBennington wrote:Make the Noctis a TIII like the TIII Destroyers with the ability to have bonuses for salvaging, hacking and probe launching based on the mode that is selected.
Maybe make it be able to warp while cloaked as well and immune to all W-Space effects as well. I'd ask you why the hell we need hacking and probe bonuses on a salvage ship, but you've yet to need anything resembling logic to justify your bad ideas, so not going to bother.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
|
|
Morgan Agrivar
Peace.Keepers
361
|
Posted - 2016.07.11 04:52:10 -
[21] - Quote
Bumblefck wrote:Don't fix the Noctis - keep people dropping MTUs all over the place. After all, what will I do all the live long day if I can't go floating around blowing them up?
Enquiring minds want to know! I agree with Mr. Mustachio. Please drop your MTUs and take your sweet, sweet time coming back to salvage. Take as long as you want. I will be considerate and leave the wrecks there for you to salvage...but at least MTUs can't warp away.
This would cure me of the fear...
CCP Explorer liked you forum post. Now my life is complete...
|
Echo Mande
70
|
Posted - 2016.07.11 12:33:00 -
[22] - Quote
Personally I think that giving the Noctis a decent tank and faster align would probably solve most problems. Make the Noctis a combat salvager.
Wallet remarks everywhere
|
DrysonBennington
Eagle's Talon's
284
|
Posted - 2016.07.12 20:05:49 -
[23] - Quote
Morgan Agrivar wrote:Bumblefck wrote:Don't fix the Noctis - keep people dropping MTUs all over the place. After all, what will I do all the live long day if I can't go floating around blowing them up?
Enquiring minds want to know! I agree with Mr. Mustachio. Please drop your MTUs and take your sweet, sweet time coming back to salvage. Take as long as you want. I will be considerate and leave the wrecks there for you to salvage...but at least MTUs can't warp away.
I'm thinking a special MTU cargo bay that would hold up to four MTU's. After the MTU or MTU's has been deployed and the Noctis moves away and then comes back within 2,500 meters the MTU Cargo Bay would automatically scoop the MTU closest with a minute delay before scooping the next MTU.
Once the cargo in the MTU has been dropped a specialized beam, if fit, would project a field around the cargo can to keep it from being flipped that would remain on for a duration of ten seconds and then shut off for thirty seconds and then on again if the cargo can or other cargo can that is the Pilot's property is within 100m. |
Deckel
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2016.07.12 20:37:53 -
[24] - Quote
An autoloot functionality like the MTU has, further increased tractor speed and/or range and maybe increased loot probability
Or some alternative function like a repair bay or fleet hanger for carrying fleet ammo and cap, or divvying out loot. |
|
|
|
Pages: [1] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |