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Schmata Bastanold
Papercuts Hurt More Than We Do
35
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Posted - 2011.12.20 13:29:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hi all,
Common rifter fit consists of guns, point, web, ab, plate, dc and gyro. That is what is recommended to newbies and oldies and any differences from this template are generally frown upon (at least that's my impression after reading discussions on fits submitted on battleclinic).
I like to experiment with my rifters, sometimes put MSE instead of web, sometimes I go with full gank like 3 x gyro and rigs for more gank / boosting my resists/shield regen. Reasoning for lack of web is: I am fast enough to catch'em as long as they are not able to warp out, for ganking fit: put max dmg on them and hope regen/resist will hold long enough to kill them.
Everybody knows rifters are plated and usually active repped so they load ammo and neut accordingly to exploit resists holes and make repping impossible.
Isn't it good to have a fit with a little "WTF?" factor? I find it really enjoyable to play with different fits and I am newbie enough to be surprised by some fits and I like to take my "weird" fits for a test drive and I wonder is it just a phase and sooner or later I will end up with the same fits as everobody else and only my skills can make a difference or experimenting on your own is a way to go?
Just to make it clear, I don't ask for your permission or approval (my money, my game - that's my motto). I just wanted to know what more experienced people think.
Second clarification: I am talking about rifters but I think question applies to any ship in Eve so don't grasp on name of ship. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Kulmid
SniggWaffe Band of Abos
4
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Posted - 2011.12.20 13:36:00 -
[2] - Quote
You want to think outside the box, but you want to use the most commonly flown frigate in all of eve?
How about start with not a rifter... your already making progress. |
General Paul
Atomic Heroes The G0dfathers
1
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Posted - 2011.12.20 13:38:00 -
[3] - Quote
Yes, experiment, see what dies or lives, see what you enjoy or don't.
Then base your next ship on your experience. |
vorneus
Hub2
14
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Posted - 2011.12.20 13:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
I am also a fan of unexpected setups, together with unexpected ships (read: max gank and huge shield buffer Celestis :D) but the success you'll have with this kind of stuff is limited.
That doesn't make it any less fun though if it's the kind of thing you enjoy, and if it is then go for it!
As previously mentioned, I've surprised a few people with a Celestis before, together with fitting frigs for max gank and two webs instead of a point (incursus works particularly well for this, against unsuspecting rifters that rely on range dictation). You'll be surprised how many people don't try to warp off, particularly in frig fights that are over so quickly.
I generally keep my experimentation to cheap ships, for obvious reasons :) The test server is a fantastic place to get practice using unconventional setups.
Just remember, things are very different on TQ! Your "experimental" fit will likely get killed by a gang and the killmail laughed at. So long as you can deal with that eventuality, go nuts and have fun.
-Ed |
Schmata Bastanold
Papercuts Hurt More Than We Do
35
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Posted - 2011.12.20 13:42:00 -
[5] - Quote
Kulmid wrote:You want to think outside the box, but you want to use the most commonly flown frigate in all of eve?
How about start with not a rifter... your already making progress.
Part of my roleplaying side of Eve is being pure minnie and tried all t1 frigs from my race and surprise, surprise, I like rifter the most so I fly them. Besides, the fact rifter is most common frig is no reason to fit it just as everybody does. I would argue that not common fit on most common ship can be advantage you have. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Sven Hammerstorm
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2011.12.20 13:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:fits submitted on battleclinic.
this is where you went wrong, there are many viable rifter fits. bc usually has the worst of the worst you could imagine |
Schmata Bastanold
Papercuts Hurt More Than We Do
35
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Posted - 2011.12.20 13:52:00 -
[7] - Quote
vorneus wrote:I generally keep my experimentation to cheap ships, for obvious reasons :) The test server is a fantastic place to get practice using unconventional setups.
Just remember, things are very different on TQ! Your "experimental" fit will likely get killed by a gang and the killmail laughed at. So long as you can deal with that eventuality, go nuts and have fun.
-Ed
I do all my tests on TQ, things have real value there and people are more crazy over stuff so possible mistakes like not warping out are more probable.
Experimental fits are of course limited but in right situation can be better than just jack of all trades cookie cutter. I fly solo and I am aware that fitting MSE instead of web is a tradeof I have to live with and there is nobody who will provide me with web.
But so far I enjoy it so once again, I don't seek approval, I just ask out of curiosity. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Schmata Bastanold
Papercuts Hurt More Than We Do
35
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Posted - 2011.12.20 13:58:00 -
[8] - Quote
Sven Hammerstorm wrote:Schmata Bastanold wrote:fits submitted on battleclinic. this is where you went wrong, there are many viable rifter fits. bc usually has the worst of the worst you could imagine
I don't think I went wrong because I made my decision to go my way with fits as soon I realized fits posted there and recommended in discussions are not what I want to fly. Which in fact is equal to what you said about bc fits being flawed (to say at least).
I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Lunkwill Khashour
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
6
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Posted - 2011.12.20 14:40:00 -
[9] - Quote
Experimental fits are sometimes viable in pvp. Surprise can be a powerful weapon. If you're just starting out however, stick to the standard fits as they're standard for a reason.
When talking about a rifter, the next fits are not what I would call 'out there', experimental, out of the box or whatever. They're still common fits: - sar, classic tackle (aka cookie cutter) - buffer, classic tackle (200 or 400 plate) - med shield/full gank - med shield/neut - cap booster/double sar - no web but td - arty/mwd
The cookie cutter is the most general one but others have their advantages and disadvantages. Some require more manual piloting aswell. Experiment and practice flying with those. If you want to innovate further, go ahead, but this will get you started. |
Captain Nares
O3 Corporation
12
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Posted - 2011.12.20 16:35:00 -
[10] - Quote
What is "experimental fit" in a game with "adapt or die" concept |
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Zodiac TheMarketRat
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2011.12.20 17:18:00 -
[11] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:I like to experiment with my rifters, sometimes put MSE instead of web [...] Everybody knows rifters are plated and usually active repped so they load ammo and neut accordingly to exploit resists holes and make repping impossible. The shield Rifter with AB/Scram/MSE is not an unheard of it and some people do indeed prefer it. It's not as unusual as you think it is.
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
188
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Posted - 2011.12.20 17:24:00 -
[12] - Quote
vorneus wrote:I am also a fan of unexpected setups, together with unexpected ships (read: max gank and huge shield buffer Celestis :D) but the success you'll have with this kind of stuff is limited.
You can also go mass ECCM Celestis for really ******* up a Falcon's day. I've got one with 144 sensor strength...
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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HachToom
Cool4Cats
0
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Posted - 2011.12.20 17:31:00 -
[13] - Quote
I've always preferred my own experimentation over "cookie cutter" BC fits. sometimes they work sometimes they don't. I wonder what would happen if I fit smaller guns and a 400 plate etc , some just come from victims killmails arfter thinking "bloody hell that was tough" or by checking out the losses for someone that just beat my fit. I get the most fun out of ships that are considered less capable, vigil , maulus , imicus etc , easier to get a fight with, but harder to win with....
every now and then you'll go "wow that was good" and another time you'll say "what was I thinking, of course that wasn't going to work"
Edit for Wrong Toon post, YesI'mWatching |
Izziee
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.20 17:54:00 -
[14] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:Hi all,
Common rifter fit consists of guns, point, web, ab, plate, dc and gyro. That is what is recommended to newbies and oldies and any differences from this template are generally frown upon (at least that's my impression after reading discussions on fits submitted on battleclinic).
I like to experiment with my rifters, sometimes put MSE instead of web, sometimes I go with full gank like 3 x gyro and rigs for more gank / boosting my resists/shield regen. Reasoning for lack of web is: I am fast enough to catch'em as long as they are not able to warp out, for ganking fit: put max dmg on them and hope regen/resist will hold long enough to kill them.
Everybody knows rifters are plated and usually active repped so they load ammo and neut accordingly to exploit resists holes and make repping impossible.
Isn't it good to have a fit with a little "WTF?" factor? I find it really enjoyable to play with different fits and I am newbie enough to be surprised by some fits and I like to take my "weird" fits for a test drive and I wonder is it just a phase and sooner or later I will end up with the same fits as everobody else and only my skills can make a difference or experimenting on your own is a way to go?
Just to make it clear, I don't ask for your permission or approval (my money, my game - that's my motto). I just wanted to know what more experienced people think.
Second clarification: I am talking about rifters but I think question applies to any ship in Eve so don't grasp on name of ship.
Basically, I don't think there is much point at all. I'm not an experienced pilot, but I think along the same lines as you do, I'd love to try different stuff out and see what works, BUT...
Eve is an old game and you won't be finding out something that hasn't already been tried and tested. Eve isn't a game like WoW either where different tactics or arena set ups is going to shock someone, because think about it, unlike wow, how often do you change your gear out? Then compare that to Eve and how many times does your ship die? A player in wow or any other MMO might change a thing here or there but they primarily stick with the same character, in eve, how many ships does a pvper go through?
It's all been done before, and while there is NOTHING wrong with trying to play differently, the most optimal thing is usually the most common, for that reason.
Nothing stops you from changing and playing around, but there isn't any point to it other than to be different...which you already stated, you don't need permission for, so kinda pointless thread :p |
Suleiman Shouaa
The Tuskers
32
|
Posted - 2011.12.20 18:22:00 -
[15] - Quote
The best way to come up with new (or "experimental") fits is by going out there and finding real needs.
For example, earlier today I found 2 Armegeddons, an Oracle and a Maelstrom bashing a Customs Office in lowsec. Now, I had to come up with a ship that would be able to deal with them (with links on my side). The result was fairly successful - they managed to run due to ECM but I would have been able to kill at least the Oracle and one of the Armageddons if that hadn't happened. |
vorneus
Hub2
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.20 21:19:00 -
[16] - Quote
Suleiman Shouaa wrote:The best way to come up with new (or "experimental") fits is by going out there and finding real needs.
For example, earlier today I found 2 Armegeddons, an Oracle and a Maelstrom bashing a Customs Office in lowsec. Now, I had to come up with a ship that would be able to deal with them (with links on my side). The result was fairly successful - they managed to run due to ECM but I would have been able to kill at least the Oracle and one of the Armageddons if that hadn't happened.
This is a really good point.
Innovating new ship fittings around a specific problem like this is not only a great way of coming up with experimental fits that work, it's also extremely satisfying when it comes off - particularly if you're fighting outnumbered.
-Ed |
Rellik B00n
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers The 0rphanage
63
|
Posted - 2011.12.20 21:55:00 -
[17] - Quote
consider the meta-game.
tough with rifters but you can use the cookie cutter to your advantage by fitting anti-cookie!
to give an example:
buffer cane, acs, neut, plate, resist, tackle.
this is(was?) a really common fit.
now if 2 of these run into each other (highly likely) what is the point of the neut/s? they accomplish very little.
throw the same ship in with 2 HAM/HM launchers fitted and it has a distinct advantage over the cookie.
this is all hypothetical since once you starting shooting the rest of his gang will log-in trap/jump in/uncloak.
that said, its fun to think "what is everyone else flying", then come up with a counter. IF post = alt AND subject is positive for goons THEN assume goon alt post. |
Cambarus
Baros Reloaded
56
|
Posted - 2011.12.21 01:29:00 -
[18] - Quote
A quick glance at battleclinic shows that the OP is losing a fair number of rifters, so odds are he's doing something wrong, and that something is this:
OP, fly cookie cutter ships for a while. It's not a question of what works and what doesn't, it's an issue with you, and your lack of understanding how to properly PVP. The issue here isn't so much that cookie cutter fits are the best way to fly a ship (often they're not), but without a solid understanding of the various aspects of pvp, you'll never do well with oddly fit ships, even if the idea behind the fit is valid. Fly with some people who know how to pvp, learn from them, and THEN go off and try odd ship fits.
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Schmata Bastanold
Papercuts Hurt More Than We Do
36
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Posted - 2011.12.21 07:23:00 -
[19] - Quote
Cambarus wrote:A quick glance at battleclinic shows that the OP is losing a fair number of rifters, so odds are he's doing something wrong, and that something is this:
OP, fly cookie cutter ships for a while. It's not a question of what works and what doesn't, it's an issue with you, and your lack of understanding how to properly PVP. The issue here isn't so much that cookie cutter fits are the best way to fly a ship (often they're not), but without a solid understanding of the various aspects of pvp, you'll never do well with oddly fit ships, even if the idea behind the fit is valid. Fly with some people who know how to pvp, learn from them, and THEN go off and try odd ship fits.
Well, I am losing a lot of ships mostly because I did not follow mine/mission/be-afraid-of-lowsec newbie routine. For example I played hide and seek for a week or two with Tuskers in Hevrice and oops, here you have my win/lose ratio. If you check fits on lost ships you will see that most of them was pretty standard (at least I think they were).
But whatever, I have 4 kills and 30 loses so yes I am losing ships. And of course I make mistakes and of course I don't know every aspect of a pvp. This is my first toon and it is 3 months old, what would you expect? Yes I know: two days old toons are killing titans with their bare hands in null and make lemon juice by squeezing suns, blah blah blah...
My point is that fit everybody uses and everybody expects when seeing rifter at their d-scan or overview is a disadvantage for somebody like me who lack in skills and experience. That is why I dedicated "weird" fits as my ISK sink, just to see what is possible and what can work and in what situations. Like few days ago I made Vengeance pilot go "wtf?" when my rifter with two MSEs just would not die instantly. Of course I lost a ship in that fight but I had my share of fun and gained some experience.
From responses to this thread I can see that along the lines "common fit is good because it's common" there are people like me who just try things out for pure lolz or just out of curiosity so I think I have my answer.
Thanks to everybody who wrote their thoughts or at least read my post.
Cheers :) I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
198
|
Posted - 2011.12.21 08:50:00 -
[20] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:Cambarus wrote:A quick glance at battleclinic shows that the OP is losing a fair number of rifters, so odds are he's doing something wrong, and that something is this:
OP, fly cookie cutter ships for a while. It's not a question of what works and what doesn't, it's an issue with you, and your lack of understanding how to properly PVP. The issue here isn't so much that cookie cutter fits are the best way to fly a ship (often they're not), but without a solid understanding of the various aspects of pvp, you'll never do well with oddly fit ships, even if the idea behind the fit is valid. Fly with some people who know how to pvp, learn from them, and THEN go off and try odd ship fits.
Well, I am losing a lot of ships mostly because I did not follow mine/mission/be-afraid-of-lowsec newbie routine. For example I played hide and seek for a week or two with Tuskers in Hevrice and oops, here you have my win/lose ratio. If you check fits on lost ships you will see that most of them was pretty standard (at least I think they were). But whatever, I have 4 kills and 30 loses so yes I am losing ships. And of course I make mistakes and of course I don't know every aspect of a pvp. This is my first toon and it is 3 months old, what would you expect? Yes I know: two days old toons are killing titans with their bare hands in null and make lemon juice by squeezing suns, blah blah blah... My point is that fit everybody uses and everybody expects when seeing rifter at their d-scan or overview is a disadvantage for somebody like me who lack in skills and experience. That is why I dedicated "weird" fits as my ISK sink, just to see what is possible and what can work and in what situations. Like few days ago I made Vengeance pilot go "wtf?" when my rifter with two MSEs just would not die instantly. Of course I lost a ship in that fight but I had my share of fun and gained some experience. From responses to this thread I can see that along the lines "common fit is good because it's common" there are people like me who just try things out for pure lolz or just out of curiosity so I think I have my answer. Thanks to everybody who wrote their thoughts or at least read my post. Cheers :)
Generally speaking, the only thing "unexpected" is when the experimental fit epic fails.. and the only "WTF" is on the killboard comments. I don't hate experimental fits - but you really need a solid PVP foundation in order to recognize when its appropriate to use one.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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DeBingJos
T.R.I.A.D
154
|
Posted - 2011.12.21 10:41:00 -
[21] - Quote
Experimental fits are fun to fly even if you lose them. And in the end, having fun is what the game is about!
Hell, my nanomaller is still alive and well... Fix FW ! |
Suleiman Shouaa
The Tuskers
35
|
Posted - 2011.12.21 13:17:00 -
[22] - Quote
Since most people on these forums only PvP in EFT, Schmata I would suggest joining our Public Channel "The Tuskers Public Channel" and showing your fits there. We (along with all our guests, most of them red) will be able to give you actual critique rather than simply telling it's a failfit because it deviates from the norm. Also you might pick up a fair few things there - we discuss PvP pretty much exclusively and in great detail.
In the meantime I suggest ignoring those who say you need a great deal of experience before you should use fits that differ from the norm. Experimenting with different fits in different situations will give you much more experience with different modules, different flying styles than simply flying the same fit over and over again. Also, no serious PvP corp actually pays attention to your K:D ratio. |
Schmata Bastanold
Papercuts Hurt More Than We Do
36
|
Posted - 2011.12.21 13:39:00 -
[23] - Quote
Suleiman Shouaa wrote:Since most people on these forums only PvP in EFT, Schmata I would suggest joining our Public Channel "The Tuskers Public Channel" and showing your fits there. We (along with all our guests, most of them red) will be able to give you actual critique rather than simply telling it's a failfit because it deviates from the norm. Also you might pick up a fair few things there - we discuss PvP pretty much exclusively and in great detail.
In the meantime I suggest ignoring those who say you need a great deal of experience before you should use fits that differ from the norm. Experimenting with different fits in different situations will give you much more experience with different modules, different flying styles than simply flying the same fit over and over again. Also, no serious PvP corp actually pays attention to your K:D ratio.
Thanks for invitation but I already joined your public channel last week or so. If that's ok next time I log in I will ask for evaluation of my "weirdo" fits. Or if you have time and/or will here is fit that stood against Vengeance for quite a long time before he broke my shields. That's only one of my experiments but I like shield regen rate (omni dmg like 43 dps or sth like this)
As I said earlier great amount of my fights I had with Tuskers in Hevrice and everytime I was pleasantly surprised by help and info each and every Tusker shared after fight. One time I lost my rifter to a firetail and after talking to opposing Tusker about that ship and fit he used I bought this hull and modules just to lose it few hours later. Just for lolz and little bit of practice.
Regarding killboard stats I don't care about them and definitely don't care what others may say about them :) I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Wacktopia
Sicarius. The Kadeshi
62
|
Posted - 2011.12.21 14:13:00 -
[24] - Quote
I used to fly this around catching noob rifters for the lols. 145dps at 20km. It.... eh... kinda worked / kinda sucked.
[Federation Navy Comet, Derp What Tank]
150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge S 150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge S [Empty High slot]
Warp Disruptor II Phased Monopropellant I Hydrazine Boosters Peripheral Weapon Navigation Diameter
Damage Control II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I Small Low Friction Nozzle Joints I
Hobgoblin II x3 Warrior II x3
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Suleiman Shouaa
The Tuskers
35
|
Posted - 2011.12.21 15:40:00 -
[25] - Quote
Reg: your Rifter fit..
Carry more than just RF PP - carry RF EMP/Fusion (for damage selection) and Barrage (extra range) as well. As for your fit you are effectively giving up your ability to keep prey in place for an improved tank. Unfortunately, I can't really see where this would work unless you are fighting on a station in high sec or in a duel.
Extenders work better on Frig hulls than Purgers due to the low base shield capacity. Also, you're giving up 4 "main" slots for your tank - 2 micros in the lows and the 2 MSEs. IMO this isn't worth it, specially when you can no longer fit a Damage Control.
In this instance, I can't really see where this would surpass a bog standard Shield Rifter, sorry. |
Schmata Bastanold
Papercuts Hurt More Than We Do
36
|
Posted - 2011.12.21 16:07:00 -
[26] - Quote
Suleiman Shouaa wrote:Reg: your Rifter fit..
Honest, informational and exactly what I would expect as a review of my fit. Thanks a lot.
That was used in a duel after I simply asked on local who will help me to test my fit.
Now I fly different fit that goes with 147 dps but has minimal tank, so it is all about gank, basically just opposite idea to this double shielded weirdo. Will it work? Don't know, gonna test it either in a arranged duel or during lowsec roam. I suspect fast death from bigger ships/more skilled/more experienced opponents but, once again, pure lolz are worth it
I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Kulsto Ribro
Deep Space Legacy REN0VATI0
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.21 16:46:00 -
[27] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:Suleiman Shouaa wrote:Reg: your Rifter fit.. I'd also advise against passive shield regen for PVP. You used 1 module and 2 rigs to improve it, but in nearly all PVP scenarios you will encounter in a rifter, those will give you much less HP than a couple of extender rigs. The Rattlesnake is IMHO the only ship capable of effectively using passive shield regen outside of PVE.
By the way, you have chosen the right race for experimenting, most minmatar ships can be fitted in different and workable ways. Their slot layout let most ships be armor or shield tanked without being totally gimped. The only major limiting factor will be the capacitor. If someday you want a change, take a look at the Myrm and it's big brother Domi. They are awesome to fit weird things. |
Cambarus
Baros Reloaded
56
|
Posted - 2011.12.21 17:01:00 -
[28] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:Suleiman Shouaa wrote:Reg: your Rifter fit.. Honest, informational and exactly what I would expect as a review of my fit. Thanks a lot. That was used in a duel after I simply asked on local who will help me to test my fit. Now I fly different fit that goes with 147 dps but has minimal tank, so it is all about gank, basically just opposite idea to this double shielded weirdo. Will it work? Don't know, gonna test it either in a arranged duel or during lowsec roam. I suspect fast death from bigger ships/more skilled/more experienced opponents but, once again, pure lolz are worth it The problem with this line of thought is that it will take you YEARS to learn how to pvp, assuming you ever learn at all.
Looking at your rifter fit for example, there are several things that some pvp experience would have taught you that would have made that fit better: Purgers and SPRs are worthless in pvp. Straight up shield buffer is better in 99% of the fights you'll get into. Without diving into the viability of the fit, popping it in to eft shows me about 4k EHP and 43 dps tank. Swapping out your recharge mods with buffer increasing mods shows me 9k shields with a 38 DPS tank. (Again, not getting into whether the fit is even viable) This means that using the same number of slots, you can gain 5k shields at the expense of 5 DPS tank, meaning the extra passive regen is only worth it in fights that last 16 minutes or so of non-stop shooting.
Then we get into the problem of no tackle.Oh dear. You have very little DPS, even if you had perfect skills, and without a point your opponent is free to leave whenever he/she feels like it. It's a rule that took me a long time to wrap my head around in eve: tanking is not a role. If you can't even hold things down while you whittle away at their health, your superior tank means nothing.
The biggest problem with what you're doing though is that you're essentially reinventing the wheel.
You're randomly picking fits that may as well just be chosen via random number generators, and eventually you will end up with something that works, only after months and months of losses, when you could have had the fit handed to you had you just asked someone. You then take that knowledge, and use it to change the fit into something more niche/odd. It sort of reminds me of those little box cars that everyone was fiddling with last year (boxcar2d.com if you've never seen it) You had the option of setting how quickly you wanted the cars to mutate, and the best way to get a good one was to set the mutation rate fairly low most of the time. It would gradually find the best car it could with the pieces it had (the standard pvp fit) and make light adjustments to it. If you set the mutation rate to 100%, all of the cars it spat out would die horribly in seconds, just like your rifters.
Trying to fit ships for pvp, when you don't actually KNOW how to pvp, is just not going to work, and eventually you'll get sick of losing. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
199
|
Posted - 2011.12.21 17:08:00 -
[29] - Quote
Cambarus wrote: The problem with this line of thought is that it will take you YEARS to learn how to pvp, assuming you ever learn at all.
I don't agree with this. Just because its unconventional doesn't mean that he won't learn anything from it (win or lose). I think this ( http://www.fadedgiant.net/html/edison_thomas_alva_quotes.htm ) is an appropriate page of quotes about this conversation.
Here's a few: - "There's a better way to do it. Find it." - "Just because something doesn't do what you planned it to do doesn't mean it's useless." - "I have not failed 700 times. I have not failed once. I have succeeded in proving that those 700 ways will not work. When I have eliminated the ways that will not work, I will find the way that will work."
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Cambarus
Baros Reloaded
56
|
Posted - 2011.12.21 17:47:00 -
[30] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Cambarus wrote: The problem with this line of thought is that it will take you YEARS to learn how to pvp, assuming you ever learn at all.
I don't agree with this. Just because its unconventional doesn't mean that he won't learn anything from it (win or lose). I think this ( http://www.fadedgiant.net/html/edison_thomas_alva_quotes.htm ) is an appropriate page of quotes about this conversation. Here's a few: - "There's a better way to do it. Find it." - "Just because something doesn't do what you planned it to do doesn't mean it's useless." - "I have not failed 700 times. I have not failed once. I have succeeded in proving that those 700 ways will not work. When I have eliminated the ways that will not work, I will find the way that will work." -Liang The problem with that line of thought is that it takes a looong time to try those 700 ways. And if we're going for quotes to explain our points of view I prefer:
"Learning without thought is labour lost, thought without learning is perilous." -Confucius
The former being people who never try anything new with setups, and the latter being the OP. Knowing that something doesn't work, without understanding WHY it doesn't means it will take you much, much longer than most to grasp the concepts of pvp, since for all the good it will do you you may as well just pick your fits by throwing darts at pictures of mods on your wall.
That second quote of yours also made me giggle, given your view on logis and TL bonuses |
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