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Pod Bot90
Overnix Logistics
4
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Posted - 2016.07.06 17:10:49 -
[1] - Quote
I've noticed lately that skiffs and procurers and somewhat the underdogs when it comes to ore mining. Actually, they are beaten to a pulp by mining frigates and their t2 variants. They are used mostly in ice mining. Actually, they are somewhat the kings at this task in empire space.
But, back to the topic, The skiff and the procurer have similar yields to mackinaw and retriever but, it sacrifices cargo space for tankiness.
The issue: Compared to hulks and mackinaws(and their t1 variants), the skiff and procurer are almost unusable for ore mining due to the high yield per miner (3000m3 with t2 crystals). Most of the cycles are wasted, thus, any hope of efficiency in this ship is lost.
Current bonuses: Mining Barge bonuses (per skill level): 5% bonus to ship shield hitpoints 2% reduction in Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration
Exhumers bonuses (per skill level): 4% bonus to all shield resistances 2% reduction in Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration
Role Bonus: 150% bonus to Strip Miner yield 60% reduction in Ice Harvester duration and activation cost 50% bonus to drone damage and hitpoints
The solution: Replace the current yield bonus with cycle time reduction, similar to ice harvesters and slightly nerf them(maybe add some range bonus, as compensation)
Proposed bonuses: Mining Barge bonuses (per skill level): 5% bonus to ship shield hitpoints 2% reduction in Ice Harvester duration 1% reduction in Strip Miner duration 1-5% bonus to Strip Miner and Ice Harvester range
Exhumers bonuses (per skill level): 4% bonus to all shield resistances 2% reduction in Ice Harvester duration 1% reduction in Strip Miner duration 1-5% bonus to Strip Miner and Ice Harvester range
Role Bonus: 60% reduction in Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration(and activation cost maybe?) 50% bonus to drone damage and hitpoints
It would further differentiate the skiff and procurers as niche mining ships, fix their ore mining problem(please dont say "use survey scanner"). |
elitatwo
Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1289
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Posted - 2016.07.06 17:21:13 -
[2] - Quote
Or you could ask that nice Orca pilot if you shares links with you instead.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
172
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Posted - 2016.07.06 17:26:25 -
[3] - Quote
Use survey scanner.....
Seriously though, the Proc and Skiff are fine as they are. They serve their purpose quite well. They have the same mining rate as a Ret/Mack respectively, but sacrifice hold for tank.
This mission has been accomplished. I'm failing to see why any change is needed at this time.
I hear that there might be a general overhaul of mining for all classes, but I'm going to hold judgement on that rumour until I hear details.
Until then, the tanky barge/exhumer is working as intended.
-1
--Gadget
Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
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Pod Bot90
Overnix Logistics
4
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Posted - 2016.07.06 17:26:29 -
[4] - Quote
http://i.imgur.com/ZMpL1Q1.jpg |
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
527
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Posted - 2016.07.06 18:16:01 -
[5] - Quote
Your belief that the Expedition Frigates mine more than the Procurer are incorrect.
The only way the Expedition Frigates come close is by using non-viable builds:
- Skiff: 21.9 m3 / sec (basic T2 build with T2 crystals).
- Procurer: 16.8 m3 / sec (basic T2 build with T2 crystals).
- Prospect: 16.1 m3 / sec (not a viable build: requires MDC Miner II's and 4x MLU II's, which requires 2x CPU rigs and nothing in your mids but a compact AB)
A build that's more likely on the Prospect puts it between 12.6 and 14.8 m3 / sec. You still need one CPU rig, though, so if you get rid of that, you're down to ~11.6 m3 / sec.
You can hate on the Procurer (wrongly) as much as you want, but don't spread false information.
Planning a trip to Thera? Check out http://eve-scout.com/ for a list of the current connections.
Once you've made your choice, join the EvE-Scout channel and request a scout to make sure your connection is clear!
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Pod Bot90
Overnix Logistics
4
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Posted - 2016.07.06 18:32:36 -
[6] - Quote
due to the high yield, most of the time you dont get full cycles. So the efficiency plummits. |
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
527
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Posted - 2016.07.06 18:41:07 -
[7] - Quote
Pod Bot90 wrote:due to the high yield, most of the time you dont get full cycles. So the efficiency plummits. You can get full cycles 100% of the time if you put a little forethought into it. The easiest way to do this is to use a survey scanner and not mining the first rock you see in a public highec belt.
CCP shouldn't be expected to change the game just to cater to people who don't have the desire to put a little forethought into things. If you just want to warp to a belt and mine without doing anything else, you don't deserve higher yields. Miners who put effort into finding a good source for ore and know how to monitor their rocks, however, do (and you won't find them complaining about the Procurer's mining).
Planning a trip to Thera? Check out http://eve-scout.com/ for a list of the current connections.
Once you've made your choice, join the EvE-Scout channel and request a scout to make sure your connection is clear!
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Pod Bot90
Overnix Logistics
4
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Posted - 2016.07.06 18:51:37 -
[8] - Quote
Winter Archipelago wrote:Pod Bot90 wrote:due to the high yield, most of the time you dont get full cycles. So the efficiency plummits. You can get full cycles 100% of the time if you put a little forethought into it. The easiest way to do this is to use a survey scanner and not mining the first rock you see in a public highec belt. CCP shouldn't be expected to change the game just to cater to people who don't have the desire to put a little forethought into things. If you just want to warp to a belt and mine without doing anything else, you don't deserve higher yields. Miners who put effort into finding a good source for ore and know how to monitor their rocks, however, do (and you won't find them complaining about the Procurer's mining).
i would highly appreciate constructive feedback, even if its negative. not spite from a person that never actually used the ship in mining(somewhat of an eft warrior) |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3374
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Posted - 2016.07.06 19:00:12 -
[9] - Quote
The proc/skiff has more yield, more speed, more tank, more dps, larger drone bays AND more efficient mining lasers.
The only thing the rettie/mack has is a bigger ore bay.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
527
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Posted - 2016.07.06 19:07:03 -
[10] - Quote
Pod Bot90 wrote:i would highly appreciate constructive feedback, even if its negative. not spite from a person that never actually used the ship in mining(somewhat of an eft warrior) I've used the Procurer and Skiff, both. As well as all of the mining frigates, mining barges, and Exhumers. As long as you're actually bothering to put a bit of thought and effort into it, you'll never have an issue with partial cycles.
Like I said: CCP shouldn't be changing the way the game works just to make it easier for people (like you) who don't want to put any effort into thinking. If you only warp into a public belt and mine the first rock you see, you don't deserve to have a good yield. If you take some effort to find private belts and fit a survey scanner, your quality of life as a miner will increase by leaps and bounds, not only due to the increased yield, but also due to the decreased risk of being ganked.
Planning a trip to Thera? Check out http://eve-scout.com/ for a list of the current connections.
Once you've made your choice, join the EvE-Scout channel and request a scout to make sure your connection is clear!
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Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
290
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Posted - 2016.07.06 19:07:23 -
[11] - Quote
yes, the answer is to use a survey scanner. You literally only need one person in your fleet to have one fit to completely avoid this "problem".
You don't want to risk losing half a cycle every now and then? Don't use a procurer and risk not having a tanked ship. What's more expensive, losing half a cycle every once in a while or losing your ship entirely because you were an easy target? |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
26294
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Posted - 2016.07.06 20:08:11 -
[12] - Quote
Pod Bot90 wrote:Winter Archipelago wrote:Pod Bot90 wrote:due to the high yield, most of the time you dont get full cycles. So the efficiency plummits. You can get full cycles 100% of the time if you put a little forethought into it. The easiest way to do this is to use a survey scanner and not mining the first rock you see in a public highec belt. CCP shouldn't be expected to change the game just to cater to people who don't have the desire to put a little forethought into things. If you just want to warp to a belt and mine without doing anything else, you don't deserve higher yields. Miners who put effort into finding a good source for ore and know how to monitor their rocks, however, do (and you won't find them complaining about the Procurer's mining). i would highly appreciate constructive feedback, even if its negative. not spite from a person that never actually used the ship in mining(somewhat of an eft warrior) The thing is, Winter Archipelago is spot on; using a survey scanner can help to prevent partial cycles.
I use a Procurer, I never have partial cycles because I use a survey scanner to identify the rocks that are going to give me at least one full cycle, when the next cycle is going to give less than a full load I switch to the next rock for it; which in turn leaves stuff for others to mine, which mining rocks till they pop does not.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
1022
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Posted - 2016.07.06 23:23:51 -
[13] - Quote
I would like you to consult a local CODE. agent on why skiff is not a bad idea and why mining yield is not the only thing that matters.
Just go use a hulk and mine in .5 system.
See how that goes. Better yet, mine in Uedama, it has freighters going through that can pick your courier packages.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony The Wraithguard.
374
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Posted - 2016.07.06 23:31:49 -
[14] - Quote
Pod Bot90 wrote: i would highly appreciate constructive feedback, even if its negative. not spite from a person that never actually used the ship in mining(somewhat of an eft warrior)
No you don't. The answer given is loud and clear: use a Survey scanner. |
Tabyll Altol
Breaking.Bad Circle-Of-Two
165
|
Posted - 2016.07.07 04:58:14 -
[15] - Quote
Pod Bot90 wrote:I've noticed lately that skiffs and procurers and somewhat the underdogs when it comes to ore mining. Actually, they are beaten to a pulp by mining frigates and their t2 variants. They are used mostly in ice mining. Actually, they are somewhat the kings at this task in empire space.
But, back to the topic, The skiff and the procurer have similar yields to mackinaw and retriever but, it sacrifices cargo space for tankiness.
The issue: Compared to hulks and mackinaws(and their t1 variants), the skiff and procurer are almost unusable for ore mining due to the high yield per miner (3000m3 with t2 crystals). Most of the cycles are wasted, thus, any hope of efficiency in this ship is lost.
Current bonuses: Mining Barge bonuses (per skill level): 5% bonus to ship shield hitpoints 2% reduction in Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration
Exhumers bonuses (per skill level): 4% bonus to all shield resistances 2% reduction in Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration
Role Bonus: 150% bonus to Strip Miner yield 60% reduction in Ice Harvester duration and activation cost 50% bonus to drone damage and hitpoints
The solution: Replace the current yield bonus with cycle time reduction, similar to ice harvesters and slightly nerf them(maybe add some range bonus, as compensation)
Proposed bonuses: Mining Barge bonuses (per skill level): 5% bonus to ship shield hitpoints 2% reduction in Ice Harvester duration 1% reduction in Strip Miner duration 1-5% bonus to Strip Miner and Ice Harvester range
Exhumers bonuses (per skill level): 4% bonus to all shield resistances 2% reduction in Ice Harvester duration 1% reduction in Strip Miner duration 1-5% bonus to Strip Miner and Ice Harvester range
Role Bonus: 60% reduction in Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration(and activation cost maybe?) 50% bonus to drone damage and hitpoints
It would further differentiate the skiff and procurers as niche mining ships, fix their ore mining problem(please dont say "use survey scanner").
Or simpy add a new line of strip miners, with lower yield and lower cycle times.
A big no!
A simple solution for your problem would be take a retriver and risk to be ganked or leave the highsec. So you see there is already a solution for your probleme in the game.
-1
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3373
|
Posted - 2016.07.07 06:40:06 -
[16] - Quote
Sonya Corvinus wrote: You don't want to risk losing half a cycle every now and then? Don't use a procurer and risk not having a tanked ship. What's more expensive, losing half a cycle every once in a while or losing your ship entirely because you were an easy target?
Funnily enough, depending on how often they get ganked loosing the cycle can actually be the more expensive part, however that's a choice up to the individual pilot as it should be.
The problem with barges is actually that it's hard baked into the hull, rather than 1 hull which can be fit in three (or more) different ways depending on player choice. But as long as we have three hulls they do need to have their individual ups & downs. Though slight balance tweaks could be made, but not on that scale, as a cycle time bonus also gives you the ability to mine under someone and steal the ore before their miner cycles which is a huge advantage if competing for smaller rocks. |
darkneko
Black Cat mining Inc.
25
|
Posted - 2016.07.07 07:53:53 -
[17] - Quote
Barge changes are already in the works for the fall update. Does no one read about the upcoming updates? |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Mercenary Coalition
3075
|
Posted - 2016.07.07 14:04:09 -
[18] - Quote
darkneko wrote:Barge changes are already in the works for the fall update. Does no one read about the upcoming updates? Probably the best time to get the opinions out there, while the change plan is still in infancy. No harm done. |
Echo Mande
70
|
Posted - 2016.07.07 14:32:08 -
[19] - Quote
I think that the skiff is mostly OK currently. If I were allowed to adjust it I would probably stop at adding extra cap and giving the Skiff the DSTs' +2 warp core stability. Extra CPU would be nice but isn't really required.
Consider the fit below. I really woulld like to be able to replace the cap recharger with a survey scanner without compromising cap stability. I recognize though that a Skiff's modus operandi is based around selecting roids of one type and serially pressing F1.
[Skiff, hard tank] Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II
Medium Shield Booster II Thermal Dissipation Amplifier II EM Ward Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Cap Recharger II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Medium Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Vespa II x5 Hammerhead II x5
Wallet remarks everywhere
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
898
|
Posted - 2016.07.07 15:05:23 -
[20] - Quote
The mining frigates are not "better" than the Skiff if both are flown by pilots that pay attention and use the tools at their disposal to maximize their yields. On the other hand a lazy or AFK Skiff pilot can be bested by an active pilot flying one of the mining frigates and to be honest with you that is how it should be.
Yes I know about mining I used to run 100 plus ship mining fleets in a past EvE life and I will add my voice to the rest who state that paying attention to what is going on with your laser / strip miners and using a survey scanner is the solution to your problem. If you do not want to put forth that much effort then you deserve to have lower yields..
Partial cycles has always been a problem and it should always be a problem simply as a way to separate the really good miners from the pretenders. Creative and active use of a survey scanner, a calculator or spread sheet and a simple stop watch can eliminate 100% of your partial cycle times, if you are willing to put forth the effort. |
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Cristl
462
|
Posted - 2016.07.07 16:14:00 -
[21] - Quote
I'd vote for an extra strip miner point on the procurer / skiff.
It's immersion breaking that the 'I sacrificed stuff for tank' ships somehow get super-powered stripminers.
Also, it's more stuff for them to pay for, and more stuff to drop for those who kill them (and even a procurer can be a pain to kill).
I'm 100% sure CCP left them this way because they didn't want to spend any additional time on the art assets for adding the turret hardpoints to the hulls. I hope it's addressed in the fall patch. |
viverxia
Serenity Prime The Volition Cult
13
|
Posted - 2016.07.07 16:32:36 -
[22] - Quote
If any of them is the ugly step child is the Mack not the skiff. Skiff is amazing, it's tank is unreal and with boosts and a survey scanner you can do wonders. If you want yield fly the hulk, if you want safety and not bad yield fly the skiff.
Not exactly sure why the Mack exists anymore, it needs some work |
Iain Cariaba
3149
|
Posted - 2016.07.07 20:58:39 -
[23] - Quote
viverxia wrote:Not exactly sure why the Mack exists anymore, it needs some work It's there because AFK miners whine. The sole purpose of a Mackinaw or Retriever is to enable people to mine semi-AFK, and the Mackinaw's yield increase isn't enough to justify the expense over a Retriever. Why spend the isk for something you know is going to explode because you're not paying attention?
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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Iain Cariaba
3149
|
Posted - 2016.07.07 20:59:55 -
[24] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:The mining frigates are not "better" than the Skiff if both are flown by pilots that pay attention and use the tools at their disposal to maximize their yields. On the other hand a lazy or AFK Skiff pilot can be bested by an active pilot flying one of the mining frigates and to be honest with you that is how it should be.
Yes I know about mining I used to run 100 plus ship mining fleets in a past EvE life and I will add my voice to the rest who state that paying attention to what is going on with your laser / strip miners and using a survey scanner is the solution to your problem. If you do not want to put forth that much effort then you deserve to have lower yields..
Partial cycles has always been a problem and it should always be a problem simply as a way to separate the really good miners from the pretenders. Creative and active use of a survey scanner, a calculator or spread sheet and a simple stop watch can eliminate 100% of your partial cycle times, if you are willing to put forth the effort. So. Very. Much. This.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2969
|
Posted - 2016.07.09 21:50:59 -
[25] - Quote
Pod Bot90 wrote:due to the high yield, most of the time you dont get full cycles. So the efficiency plummits. The Skiff holds a lot more than one cycle worth of ore. If you want to spend more than 5 minutes AFK at a time, you should do yourself a favor and get a Mackinaw.
FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."
Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
194
|
Posted - 2016.07.10 18:10:40 -
[26] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Pod Bot90 wrote:due to the high yield, most of the time you dont get full cycles. So the efficiency plummits. The Skiff holds a lot more than one cycle worth of ore. If you want to spend more than 5 minutes AFK at a time, you should do yourself a favor and get a Mackinaw.
And then tell everyone where you'll be mining
--Gadget the Good
Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
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Frostys Virpio
Yet another corpdot.
2962
|
Posted - 2016.07.10 18:19:22 -
[27] - Quote
If you are at the keyboard, you can cut your cycles short and risk less waste. It's not like the Skiff doesn't have the cap to do so... |
DrysonBennington
Eagle's Talon's
284
|
Posted - 2016.07.11 00:02:19 -
[28] - Quote
If anything the Skiff and Procurer need to have at least two weapons mounts to use medium turrets with making them beefy **** and able to defend theirself.
Such a ship would be a good Rookie Ship that Rookies could into and feel safe about mining in while they get their space legs and join a corporation. |
Frostys Virpio
Yet another corpdot.
2962
|
Posted - 2016.07.11 03:37:02 -
[29] - Quote
DrysonBennington wrote:If anything the Skiff and Procurer need to have at least two weapons mounts to use medium turrets with making them beefy **** and able to defend theirself.
Such a ship would be a good Rookie Ship that Rookies could into and feel safe about mining in while they get their space legs and join a corporation.
Because 5 damage/HP bonused drones is not enough? |
Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony The Wraithguard.
383
|
Posted - 2016.07.11 03:38:02 -
[30] - Quote
No.
Stripminer + Cyno generator? And you try to sell us this idea by proposing a LOLturret? Nice try.
Drones are weapons, thank you very much. |
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