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Templer Relleg
x13 Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.08 18:23:00 -
[1]
Well, its a really simpel question.
What do you think about the current state of the rigs ccp? Here im thinking price wise ofc.
Atm. a price ranging from 10mill to 50+ mil for these things, i think is pretty much too much. I remember that it were stated that rigs is supposed to be affordable. Fitting a module that you cant change onto a ship, that also have massive penalty(Ofc. you can train it to level 5), and cost way more then the normal cruiser itself, im not a big fan of.
So ccp, what do you tink of the way rigs are now? Are you looking into boosting it?
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CrayC
Gallente CrayC Inc.
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Posted - 2007.03.08 18:29:00 -
[2]
Two hints for ya:
Playerdriven Market. Rigs are new toys.
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Templer Relleg
x13 Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.08 18:32:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Templer Relleg on 08/03/2007 18:31:30
Originally by: CrayC Two hints for ya:
Playerdriven Market. Rigs are new toys.
O really? Then why did CCP then increase the amount of salvaged materials less then a month i believe it were, after relevations went live? It could just aswell have been because those 2 things you talk about(Yes, i DID take them into consideration)
But if you did your homework, you would notice that the prices of some rigs arent dropping anymore, some are even getting even more expensive, during the last 5 days, according to the market.
Yes, the price have dropped alot since release, but the price doesnt seem to be moving that much. If price stays within a 5mill pricerange of the current, i think its way too much.
Im wondering what ccp thinks.
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Paigan
Amarr Katsu Corporation Pure.
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Posted - 2007.03.08 18:37:00 -
[4]
"player driven market" is NOT the holy absolute excuse for all senseless prices.
player driven market only means, that the price adjusts freely according to the drop rate of the production items. And that is still way too low (and way to uncomfortable to loot, tbh).
With a price from still 10-40mil for even the T1 ones, rigs are only relevant for three groups of people: - mission runners / PvEers - capital pilots - T2 BPO design-error money-printer owners
For the normal all-day-pvp guy, they're still not reasonably usable.
Price for the T1 rigs would have to drop around 5mio, better less, in order to make them relevant at least for BS. To make them usable on Frigs (that, by some weird cause, need the same type and number of rigs as BSs do), they would have do drop to around 100K.
Just another thing that CCPs completely messed up. But, as i'm part of group 1 and as well group 2, i can live with it. -- This game is still in beta stage |
Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
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Posted - 2007.03.08 18:56:00 -
[5]
LOL, I have Tech 1 frigs with up to three rigs fitted on them.
Hell, I LOST a Tech 1 frig with two rigs on it the other day. And it was worth every penny. ------------------ Ironfleet.com Proposal: Automated Ore Return Vehicles |
Eralus
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Posted - 2007.03.08 18:56:00 -
[6]
If you think rigs are too expensive, there is one reason for this opinion and one reason only:
You are a poor player.
If you were not a poor player, you would figure out how to use the price of rigs to make yourself some money.
And, who cares if rigs are too expensive for some players to use? There's nothing wrong with that.
This is just another variation of the standard whine:
"(Item X) is too expensive for me to use! CCP should fix it so I can use it!"
For Item X, insert:
Capital Ships Tech 2 Cruisers +5 Implants Rigs Faction Launchers
etc. etc. etc.
Some items are harder to get than others. Rigs are harder to get than regular mods. That's the way it should be. If you can't afford rigs, WORK HARDER. Or WORK SMARTER. _____ Lifewire is a big, ugly, mean... carebear. |
Paigan
Amarr Katsu Corporation Pure.
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Posted - 2007.03.08 19:02:00 -
[7]
Saying that some stuff is not worth its price does not have anything to do with one's personal wealth.
Instead, is has to do with cost-value ratio.
paying 40mil to make a 200K frig 2% better (overall) is simply beyond any reason. No matter if one has only 10mil isk, or 10 billion. The ratio stays the same.
A stupid but rich player might not consider it anymore. A clever player will always consider this. You, sir, must have a nice way of thinking regarding this point. ^^ -- This game is still in beta stage |
Crydawner
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Posted - 2007.03.08 19:03:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Eralus If you think rigs are too expensive, there is one reason for this opinion and one reason only:
You are a poor player.
If you were not a poor player, you would figure out how to use the price of rigs to make yourself some money.
And, who cares if rigs are too expensive for some players to use? There's nothing wrong with that.
This is just another variation of the standard whine:
"(Item X) is too expensive for me to use! CCP should fix it so I can use it!"
For Item X, insert:
Capital Ships Tech 2 Cruisers +5 Implants Rigs Faction Launchers
etc. etc. etc.
Some items are harder to get than others. Rigs are harder to get than regular mods. That's the way it should be. If you can't afford rigs, WORK HARDER. Or WORK SMARTER.
when i saw the price of a faction missile launcher i just thought "oh well i'll train for a tech II launcher and get the RoF bonus from missile specialisation, and i'll be able to use tech II ammo in it" ^.^
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Jaggeh
Gallente Furious Angels
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Posted - 2007.03.08 19:26:00 -
[9]
rigs are not meant for everyone. its a simple fact.
If the prices drop too far it will no longer be viable for people to 'waste' time collecting salvage except to make for themselves, meaning supply will dry out and the prices will go up.
As rigs are still relatively new the market is STILL balancing and probably wont normalize for another few months, as it is i think most rigs are hitting their desired cost.
Drone rigs on average are 10m each, i dont make them anymore because they arent cost effective for the number of parts required.
If you want a price drop and the supply to remain in tact 2 things are required. 1. Half part usage to contruct the rigs. 2. Double salvage drops.
at that point rigs will be so cheap that people will be using them in everything even a newbie ship --------------------------------------- Furious Angels are recruiting Carpe Pugya Pyga - Seize the Buttocks
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Captain Jaikken
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.03.08 19:35:00 -
[10]
I think rigs should come in sizes like everything else. If they were only intended for battleships and hacs and stuff why even give smaller ships rig slots? At the moment theres no reason to use them on frigates or cruisers because the rigs cost a few times what the ship did. If they made rigs come in other sizes that could only be fit on certain ships and requires less parts to build it would make it viable to use rigs on any ship.
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Captain Jaikken
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.03.08 19:39:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Captain Jaikken on 08/03/2007 19:36:22
Originally by: Eralus If you think rigs are too expensive, there is one reason for this opinion and one reason only:
You are a poor player. Quote: I'm getting "lern2play" flashbacks of the WoW forums...
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Jaggeh
Gallente Furious Angels
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Posted - 2007.03.08 19:43:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Jaggeh on 08/03/2007 19:41:20
Originally by: Captain Jaikken I think rigs should come in sizes like everything else. If they were only intended for battleships and hacs and stuff why even give smaller ships rig slots?
ive said it before and ill say it till im blue in the face. RIGS ARE VIABLE ON EVERY SHIP
make them yourself. if you dont like the cost others charge for something then easy make it yourself. the skills required to make them are the same required to use them and people refusing to make for themselves and cry about cost need to put up or shut up. i make all my own rigs (have yet to buy 1) and i make all the rigs for my corp (who have also yet to buy 1) and i sell rigs to others for 10-15% below the market average in their home area.
i could understand complaints if everything you needed to make them was restricted and hard to get but its not, it just requires effort which you arent willing to put in.
sigh [/soapbox]
--------------------------------------- Furious Angels are recruiting Carpe Pugya Pyga - Seize the Buttocks
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2007.03.08 19:45:00 -
[13]
well... balancing between profitable niche for salvagers and "cheap" rigs is an ugly job, certainly... personally, i'd say 20mil is a good level, and some rigs have reached that, while still leaving ~10-20% markup for dedicated wreckdiggers and producers. however, the ingredients are out of whack here and there; cap recharge rig vs cap amount rig would be the most famous example: the one with the "weaker" positive bonus (+15%) takes more than twice as many ingredients as the more powerful one with the negative bonus (-15%). i admit, i never found an approach to understand overall (much) higher requirements for cap amount compared to recharge rate to begin with (cap skills, batteries vs rechargers, now rigs)
anyhow, one way or the other: drop rates seem to be quite ok these days (except for the often mentioned armor plates and the size of metal scrap) - but the recipes could need a (lto of) tweaking here and there
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AvatarADV
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Posted - 2007.03.08 19:45:00 -
[14]
Much as I hate to say it, the OP has a bit of a point.
If you look at the salvaged items market, most of the "rig-type-specific" items have plummeted in price, some of which you can barely give away. There are only two classes of (T1) salvaged items that have maintained a relatively high price... melted capacitor consoles (which are the "specific" item for energy grid rigs, the no-downside category), and the "general purpose" salvaged items used in a variety of rig classes. Specifically, burnt logic circuits and fried interface circuits are still selling for 50k+ each, meaning many rigs have a production cost in excess of 10 million even excluding their "individual" item. And those are buy prices, not sell ones!
Yes, most (T1) rigs aren't -that- expensive to produce. Yes, you can get the items for cheaper prices if you're a careful buyer. Yes, there's a sweet chunk of change to be made. (How do you think I paid for my Dom? ;p) And I have to give this much to the devs - there's a low barrier of entry to rig production and salvaging, and practically anybody can play. If you REALLY REALLY want a rig, you can just sock your salvage away until your salvage pile is big enough, then buy a cheap rig BPO and bang it out. So I'm not really complaining per se.
It would be nice to have a bit more diversity in the rig market, such that "undervalued" rigs would have all their salvage components' prices fall to the point where they would be potentially-useful even for cheap ships. However, so long as there's something of a "monoculture" with the parts involved - and there are only two or three T1 rigs that DON'T use burnt logic circuits or fried interface circuits - prices are going to continue to be pulled upwards by people replacing cap rechargers on capital ships.
Presumably there's more of the burnt/fried/tripped/charred drops than a random share would suggest, but they're definitely the limiting factor in rig production at this point. On the other hand, I've been bringing home a bunch of them in the last few days, so maybe it's been resolved in the last patch with the salvage drop reallocation, and the market's just slower to react in the common category because of all the pent-up rig demand? Be interesting to see.
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General Apocalypse
Amarr The Merchant Marines Miners With Attitude
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Posted - 2007.03.08 19:47:00 -
[15]
Rigs are GREAT the way they are rigt now.
And they are also cheap compared whit what they can offer.
You don't have the money to build them go rat & do missions . I got a friend that's 4 days old and he made 2 rigs worth of parts just from salvaging the newb area .
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Templer Relleg
x13 Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.08 19:47:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Jaggeh Edited by: Jaggeh on 08/03/2007 19:41:20
Originally by: Captain Jaikken I think rigs should come in sizes like everything else. If they were only intended for battleships and hacs and stuff why even give smaller ships rig slots?
ive said it before and ill say it till im blue in the face. RIGS ARE VIABLE ON EVERY SHIP
make them yourself. if you dont like the cost others charge for something then easy make it yourself. the skills required to make them are the same required to use them and people refusing to make for themselves and cry about cost need to put up or shut up. i make all my own rigs (have yet to buy 1) and i make all the rigs for my corp (who have also yet to buy 1) and i sell rigs to others for 10-15% below the market average in their home area.
i could understand complaints if everything you needed to make them was restricted and hard to get but its not, it just requires effort which you arent willing to put in.
sigh [/soapbox]
Its like saying that the stuff you mine, are free to your self, cos you didnt spend money on it? But as pointed out, its all about cost efficency.
With the minerals you can mine/salvage, you could build for yourself(People who use the termonlogy that the things you mine yourself are free) at, according to your wallet, no cost. But you could sell it. So in fact the things that you have mined, have a value. You could just aswell have bought them with isk. In the other case, you payed with your time. Time is money.
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Templer Relleg
x13 Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.08 19:50:00 -
[17]
Originally by: General Apocalypse Rigs are GREAT the way they are rigt now.
And they are also cheap compared whit what they can offer.
You don't have the money to build them go rat & do missions . I got a friend that's 4 days old and he made 2 rigs worth of parts just from salvaging the newb area .
So, im not that poor(I have 1bill, excluding assets). And i dont think that they are that cost effective. The money you spend, versus what you get, is not right. For the price of one speed rig for instance, i could get over 2 cruisers. I could get like 5-6 vexors!
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Antares Andaris
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Posted - 2007.03.08 19:51:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Jaggeh rigs are not meant for everyone. its a simple fact.
True, true
Most of EVE is only affordable for T2 BPO owners. Who else would fit stuff like faction hardener and rigs on frigs.
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Neon Genesis
Gallente The Landed Gentry
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Posted - 2007.03.08 19:52:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Jaggeh If the prices drop too far it will no longer be viable for people to 'waste' time collecting salvage except to make for themselves, meaning supply will dry out and the prices will go up.
So surely more people would then salvage and make rigs again?
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Antares Andaris
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Posted - 2007.03.08 19:57:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Jaggeh ... make them yourself.
If you "make them yourself" they are STILL valuable items ranging from 10-50 mil. Just because you make them yourself doesnt mean that they are "for free".
Considering stuff you build on your own for free is one of the most stupid ideas one can have in EVE. This would mean that a looted Estamels invu field is also "free" and it doesnt matter if you fit it on a frig. Nobody would think this way when it comes to faction stuff... so why think that way with other stuff you can loot/mine/just-takes-time-to-get
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Templer Relleg
x13 Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.08 19:58:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Neon Genesis
Originally by: Jaggeh If the prices drop too far it will no longer be viable for people to 'waste' time collecting salvage except to make for themselves, meaning supply will dry out and the prices will go up.
So surely more people would then salvage and make rigs again?
Yes. Thats player-driven market in play! There will ALWAYS be a balance, where theres money, theres people. When theres too many people in the same area trying to do the same work, some people will leave. If then 50% of all the players stop doing rigs, theres a huge profit margin to be found again, and people will make them. At some point, this will balance it, and make it stable.
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Kaptein Trefot
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Posted - 2007.03.08 19:59:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Jaggeh make them yourself. if you dont like the cost others charge for something then easy make it yourself. the skills required to make them are the same required to use them and people refusing to make for themselves and cry about cost need to put up or shut up. i make all my own rigs (have yet to buy 1) and i make all the rigs for my corp (who have also yet to buy 1) and i sell rigs to others for 10-15% below the market average in their home area. [/quote
The expression 'time is money' comes to mind. For most ppl its hardly any cheaper to make em themselves as the time it takes to do so is isk lost to timewaste.
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Jaggeh
Gallente Furious Angels
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Posted - 2007.03.08 20:08:00 -
[23]
time is money for sure.
if im doing a mission in a battleship it takes me X time to complete without looting. if i loot in the battleship i have to sacrifice a slot for a tractor making the mission take longer due to lower dps. so it takes X+1 if i can do the same mission without looting in the battleship, then turn around and loot it in the same time with a destroyer kitted out then im not sinking any time into it and it is essentially free. --------------------------------------- Furious Angels are recruiting Carpe Pugya Pyga - Seize the Buttocks
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Templer Relleg
x13 Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.08 20:12:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Jaggeh time is money for sure.
if im doing a mission in a battleship it takes me X time to complete without looting. if i loot in the battleship i have to sacrifice a slot for a tractor making the mission take longer due to lower dps. so it takes X+1 if i can do the same mission without looting in the battleship, then turn around and loot it in the same time with a destroyer kitted out then im not sinking any time into it and it is essentially free.
That would require a second account, which cost isk unless you pay CC.
But still, the things that you gather, you could sell. So this thing that you think you got for free, could bring you in xx mill
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.03.08 20:20:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 08/03/2007 20:19:13 Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 08/03/2007 20:18:39 In my opinion, rigs have 3 problems, though overall I like the concept.
1. They aren't balanced among themselves. A few rigs are completely superior to all the rest.
2. Their cost doesn't scale up with ship size. i.e., rigging a frigate and a battleship will set you back the same amount of isk. Unfortunately I don't see any good way around this now without completely overhauling everything.
3. Salvaging and thus rigs are a net addition to grind time in this game. If you use rigs, you're probably grinding more than you were before they existed, whether it's through making them yourself or buying them. (People who are raking in isk from the rig or component market may be a partial exception to this for now.) Nor is salvaging itself particularly interesting in any way. A couple of fixes would be
- Make salvaging a little faster, at least with the right skills and equipment.
- Give rigs a chance, even just 10%, of surviving ship destruction. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2007.03.08 20:21:00 -
[26]
God. I'm only half way into this thread and already there are arugments which are brain-hurting stupid.
"If rigs are too expensive, make your own" - The (ISK) value of a rig is determined by the market. A rig is not worth more or less because you made it yourself. Minerals you mine yourself are not free.
"If you can't afford them you are poor" - As pointed out in another post, rigs being too expensive is a question of cost-effectiveness, not whether an individual can afford them.
"Rigs are not supposed to be for everyone" - Yes, yes they are. See that tier 1 frigate? See it's rig slots? STFU. -
If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine. |
The Slayer
Caldari The Black Rabbits Fatal Persuasion
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Posted - 2007.03.08 20:23:00 -
[27]
If you do not think they are worth the price they are currently going for, do not buy them. Enough players DO think they are worth this price tho, which is why the price aint dropping.
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Templer Relleg
x13 Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.08 20:24:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
"Rigs are not supposed to be for everyone" - Yes, yes they are. See that tier 1 frigate? See it's rig slots? STFU.
Indeed. Thats what im trying to point out. But as it is now, its not the case. I also remembering a dev stating that rigs are supposed to be affordable for everybody, and widely used. Just like hardwireings are today(They hardly cost anything, 10mill max), and they give bonuses across all the ships you use, with NO penalty.
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Ker Ching
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Posted - 2007.03.08 20:25:00 -
[29]
Can I just say, as a rig producer.........
Get off your lazy arse. Salvage stuff. Buy a BPO (quite cheap and plentiful). Make your own!
The main reason rigs are expensive isn't because the producers are making a killing. It's because of the price salvage is selling for. FICs and ATBs are still going for over 100k per unit. Stick 130-200 in a rig and the price soon adds up.
So, I say again.....BUILD YOUR OWN!
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Brutor Shaun
Minmatar Freelancers UK Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.08 20:27:00 -
[30]
Alt post! Ker Ching is me. Sorry.
My skills
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