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Templer Relleg
x13 Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.08 20:27:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Ker Ching Can I just say, as a rig producer.........
Get off your lazy arse. Salvage stuff. Buy a BPO (quite cheap and plentiful). Make your own!
The main reason rigs are expensive isn't because the producers are making a killing. It's because of the price salvage is selling for. FICs and ATBs are still going for over 100k per unit. Stick 130-200 in a rig and the price soon adds up.
So, I say again.....BUILD YOUR OWN!
You just didnt read the posts, did you? Because i build my own, they arent worth less then what they got for on the market.
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Brutor Shaun
Minmatar Freelancers UK Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.08 20:29:00 -
[32]
They're worth whatever value you put on your salvaging time. If you salvage with an alt while running missions with your main, the salvage is pretty much 'free'.
My skills
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Templer Relleg
x13 Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.08 20:31:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Brutor Shaun They're worth whatever value you put on your salvaging time. If you salvage with an alt while running missions with your main, the salvage is pretty much 'free'.
No, because if i sold them at the market, i could earn xx mill. Yes, its out of the blue, but its still a profit.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2007.03.08 20:32:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Brutor Shaun They're worth whatever value you put on your salvaging time. If you salvage with an alt while running missions with your main, the salvage is pretty much 'free'.
But this thread is questioning the ISK value, which is determined by the market. -
If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine. |
Jinx Barker
GFB Scientific Interstellar Corporate Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.08 20:54:00 -
[35]
T1 Rig Market is fine. I see ample supply of things to build them, and mission runners are really banging stuff out.
My main concern is with T2 Rig components. I recently got involved in invention, hapily invented a T2 Rig BPO - and realised that the it would cost me 500 million ISK to build a T2 Rig (single t2 Rig) vs 40-50 mill for a T1 model.
Again, at 400 mill a pop T2 Rig building is broken and I hold a sincere hope that CCP will address the issue.
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Max Hardcase
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.03.08 20:59:00 -
[36]
I could see rigs for specific size classes with reduced build requirements. Say 40% for frig size stuff ( small weapon rigs, +40 cap, +5 powergrid etc etc ). And 75% for cruiser sized rigs.
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MrTripps
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.03.08 21:17:00 -
[37]
While I do think that rigs are too expensive I believe fixing that problem should be left to the market. It doesn't take much in the way of SP to salvage and gobs of ISK can be made from it. Those with lots of SP (and presumably ISK) don't really care that rigs cost so much. In a sense, rigs and salvaging are a form of market based wealth redistribution. Certain drops could be adjusted, but overall I think the system works well.
Most people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell |
Rudy Metallo
Minmatar G.H.O.S.T
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Posted - 2007.03.08 21:19:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Rudy Metallo on 08/03/2007 21:17:26
Originally by: Eralus If you think rigs are too expensive, there is one reason for this opinion and one reason only:
You are a poor player.
If you were not a poor player, you would figure out how to use the price of rigs to make yourself some money.
And, who cares if rigs are too expensive for some players to use? There's nothing wrong with that.
This is just another variation of the standard whine:
"(Item X) is too expensive for me to use! CCP should fix it so I can use it!"
For Item X, insert:
Capital Ships Tech 2 Cruisers +5 Implants Rigs Faction Launchers
etc. etc. etc.
Some items are harder to get than others. Rigs are harder to get than regular mods. That's the way it should be. If you can't afford rigs, WORK HARDER. Or WORK SMARTER.
Doesn't justify 10mil prices. 5mil I can understand, maybe even 7.5 for some of the upperends. But Rigs TAKE AWAY from your ship as well as add to it, which should justify a drop in price.
The only things I've ever heard anyone complain about price wise on your list is t2 cruisers and Rigs. As for t2 cruisers, most cost more than t2 BC's. What's wrong with this picture? But that's another subject.
Faction mod prices I can somewhat understand, because they give a lot more stat-wise for t1 skills. But rigs arent from faction rats, or any of that. The salvage is common enough, people just dont have the time nor the patience to sit and wait for the salvaging to be done. Just like some people dont have patience for mining and manufacturing. But you dont see mod prices skyhigh (except for a few t2 mods, but that, again, is a different story).
But no, I dont think CCP should fix it. On the whole, I agree with your argument. The market will adjust accordingly.
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Bigoleed
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Posted - 2007.03.08 21:50:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Bigoleed on 08/03/2007 21:49:56
Originally by: Ker Ching Can I just say, as a rig producer.........
Get off your lazy arse. Salvage stuff. Buy a BPO (quite cheap and plentiful). Make your own!
The main reason rigs are expensive isn't because the producers are making a killing. It's because of the price salvage is selling for. FICs and ATBs are still going for over 100k per unit. Stick 130-200 in a rig and the price soon adds up.
So, I say again.....BUILD YOUR OWN!
Only person to get it right in the thread so far. Sure - you can argue its still worth xx amount - but its only worth what will be paid - if you dont want to pay it - follow that advice.
On another note - this market is going to crash - um within a week at most IMO. Once it reaches that level - I imagine that CCP can tweak the salvage drop ratio again - if they dont like the price range. Tweaking the economy of newly implemented items must happen slow - that said - I really hope they make the other 90% of the rigs worthwhile.
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Templer Relleg
x13 Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.08 22:02:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Bigoleed Edited by: Bigoleed on 08/03/2007 21:49:56
Originally by: Ker Ching Can I just say, as a rig producer.........
Get off your lazy arse. Salvage stuff. Buy a BPO (quite cheap and plentiful). Make your own!
The main reason rigs are expensive isn't because the producers are making a killing. It's because of the price salvage is selling for. FICs and ATBs are still going for over 100k per unit. Stick 130-200 in a rig and the price soon adds up.
So, I say again.....BUILD YOUR OWN!
Only person to get it right in the thread so far. Sure - you can argue its still worth xx amount - but its only worth what will be paid - if you dont want to pay it - follow that advice.
And you are not the only one who got it wrong Just because you loot something for free, the item is NOT worthless. It have a real value. Alot of people in here needs Economics 101
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Clara Lemonte
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.03.08 22:03:00 -
[41]
people should really start to get a grip...
whats with the whole they are not worth 60 mil?
there are people buying them at that prices , so OBVIOUSLY, to SOME, THEY ARE WORTH THAT MUCH.
just because you think they are not worth their price doesnt change that... so you find they are too expensive, fine, you dont ahve to stuff something into these rigslots on your ship...
seems some people still havent grasped the market dynamics... if product X is avaialable at a certain price, you are left with 3 options. 1) buy it if you think its worth it. 2) dont buy it if you think its not worth it 3) moan on some forum on how unfair the price is and wait for a government to regulate the price? HELLO? where do you people live?
sometimes you really gotta wonder at some folks logic....
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2007.03.08 22:04:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Clara Lemonte people should really start to get a grip...
whats with the whole they are not worth 60 mil?
there are people buying them at that prices , so OBVIOUSLY, to SOME, THEY ARE WORTH THAT MUCH.
just because you think they are not worth their price doesnt change that... so you find they are too expensive, fine, you dont ahve to stuff something into these rigslots on your ship...
seems some people still havent grasped the market dynamics... if product X is avaialable at a certain price, you are left with 3 options. 1) buy it if you think its worth it. 2) dont buy it if you think its not worth it 3) moan on some forum on how unfair the price is and wait for a government to regulate the price? HELLO? where do you people live?
sometimes you really gotta wonder at some folks logic....
You are confusing personal value, market value and cost-effectiveness.
You are saying the market value is ok because it is determined by the personal value they hold for people, but this thread is about cost-effectiveness, not either of the other 2. -
If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine. |
Kumu Honua
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Posted - 2007.03.08 22:44:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Kumu Honua on 08/03/2007 22:43:45 The reason for the prices of rigs:
1) Horrible distribution of material requirements. When every single rig needs the same 1 or 2 pieces in quantities of a hundred or so, demand is sky high. Influx of these pieces determine how many can be made and how often.
2) Materials with lower drop rates. Melted Capacitor Consoles are a major example, but also suffer from point #3. If you need 20 of these and market price is 500K per, that's 10m to build not counting the other ~150 pieces you need.
3) Unequal perceived usefulness of rigs. No one buys mining drone rigs because a mining ship generally needs all the cpu it can muster for those lasers, and the rig takes away from that. Thus, no one uses it. Cargohold Optimization and the engineering rigs are also in this category, but for another reason. They either have no penalty, or one that is acceptable for the ship it's used on.
Till those points are addressed (And others in this thread), rigs will not drop a whole lot. Especially for the rigs that are popular.
I would overhaul the entire thing.
Rigs with different sizes. Spread the wealth on materials required. Review the bonus/penalties to see if they are balanced. Adjust the flow of bits and pieces. If something has too much influx, adjust. Too little, adjust.
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Diragi
Strife Mercenaries Inc.
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Posted - 2007.03.08 22:51:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Paigan paying 40mil to make a 200K frig 2% better (overall) is simply beyond any reason. No matter if one has only 10mil isk, or 10 billion. The ratio stays the same.
Rigs are way, way better than 2% (if pick the right ones).
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heheheh
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Posted - 2007.03.09 02:03:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Eralus If you think rigs are too expensive, there is one reason for this opinion and one reason only:
You are a poor player.
If you were not a poor player, you would figure out how to use the price of rigs to make yourself some money.
And, who cares if rigs are too expensive for some players to use? There's nothing wrong with that.
This is just another variation of the standard whine:
"(Item X) is too expensive for me to use! CCP should fix it so I can use it!"
For Item X, insert:
Capital Ships Tech 2 Cruisers +5 Implants Rigs Faction Launchers
etc. etc. etc.
Some items are harder to get than others. Rigs are harder to get than regular mods. That's the way it should be. If you can't afford rigs, WORK HARDER. Or WORK SMARTER.
strange you must be seeing things because i see whine nowhere, read it again properly this time and try to comprehend the whole post a bit better than you did the first time.
Work smarter ? what?
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heheheh
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Posted - 2007.03.09 02:05:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Clara Lemonte
sometimes you really gotta wonder at some folks logic....
yep too right, your logic is incorrect, just because people pay a price, does not mean that they think its worth it, i dont think beer is worth ś2 a pint, but i still pay it.
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Lachesis Moirae
Anqara Expeditions The OSS
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Posted - 2007.03.09 02:19:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Kumu Honua
Rigs with different sizes. Review the bonus/penalties to see if they are balanced. Having the penalty based on the class of rig was lazy.
If these get changed, you need to add 2 more things to that list:
1. Allow rigs to be removed without destroying them. If a module is nerfed for the application you're using it for, you can remove it and use it somewhere else. If a rig is nerfed for the application you're using it in, you're SOL. Either remove it and lose millions (possibly a whole lot more for T2 rigs), or leave it in and have a non-optimum rig setup.
2. Rigs should be in wrecks just like modules. If I wtfpwn a Domi equipped with three C3 rigs, each of them should have a chance of being destroyed or ending up in the wreck.
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Nalar Marnith
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.03.09 02:28:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Roemy Schneider i admit, i never found an approach to understand overall (much) higher requirements for cap amount compared to recharge rate to begin with (cap skills, batteries vs rechargers, now rigs)
Simply put, increasing the size of your cap increases the recharge rate by the same amount.
If your cap is 10% larger, and it recharges in the same amount of time, it must recharge 10% more per second.
This means you get a cap recharge AND cap size bonus. Hence batteries > rechargers.
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Shismo
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Posted - 2007.03.09 02:31:00 -
[49]
1. Make salvagers a mid slot item 2. Limit number per ship to 1 3. Increase sucsess rate by 5 times 4. Cut all rig components required down to 1/4rd of the current 5. Alow anyone to make rigs out of the components on the spot, in space, like you would expect a bunch of junk getting thrown togeather to be. 6. Alow rigs to be 'overwriten' (but not removed)- doing this recovers a random amount of the components of the replaced rig 7. When a ship is destroyed rigs have a chance of falling appart and a large/small quantity of the salvage used in them can be regained while salvaging the wreck IN ADDITION to the normal salvage you would get for a destroyed ship - there is also a chance (rare) the entire rig is found as a normal loot item. - this rare chance also applys to rats, who are assumed to also be using rigs.
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Pax Althaleen
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.03.09 02:32:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Ker Ching Can I just say, as a rig producer.........
Get off your lazy arse. Salvage stuff. Buy a BPO (quite cheap and plentiful). Make your own!
The main reason rigs are expensive isn't because the producers are making a killing. It's because of the price salvage is selling for. FICs and ATBs are still going for over 100k per unit. Stick 130-200 in a rig and the price soon adds up.
So, I say again.....BUILD YOUR OWN!
/Signed...
Check this if you think its way out of line. I made a Rig for a friend of mine - Anti-Thermic Pump I - And when all was said and done It cost Me 17 Million approx. to make the Rig for Him. We then bantered on about Price and We settled on 20 Million ISK.
That means 3 Million profit on a 20 Million ISK Rig.
Simply put, the time it took to gather/salvage those Comps plus the transport of them to My Manufacturing Hub was way over that. Now if You consider that on average I can make 1 to 5 Million ISK/Hour Missioning or Ratting in Low Sec - I lost money or time making that Rig for Him...
Overpriced? Not likely. Efforts such as this in game need to be rewarded or what's the flippin' point...
Like someone has already said - Train up and get some BPOs while You still can, so You can make Your own.
I'm not trying to flame anyone here but c'mon Peeps - Rig making is NOT easy or cheap, and so You MUST be payed for Your time and effort when Manufacturing them for the Comunity at large...
Sincerely and Respectfully,
Pax Althaleen Holder - House Althaleen |
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Nalar Marnith
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.03.09 03:31:00 -
[51]
As I see it rigs are cost effective for BS and similarly priced ships. Not so for anything smaller, and I think that opinion is held by a lot of people here.
I happily paid 20m for a CCC rig. I'll salvage for other rigs I need tho because it's cheaper (I don't make that much ISK/hr, so a few hours salvaging for a rig is cost effective).
Rigs need to drop in price by a LOT to be worth chucking on frigs.
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Vincent Almasy
Gallente The Underground
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Posted - 2007.03.09 04:29:00 -
[52]
Rig Reason
the price difference in some named units over T1 of the same unit are millions, let alone getting into faction but that is the real difference? Sometimes that difference is less then 10% but the price difference can be 20 or more million a percent.
if you don't like the prices and don't want them, be quiet.
if you don't like the prices but want them, mission grind and make the parts yourself. Time is money so you's making 50k+ on average a salvaged piece.
if you don't care about the price and don't want them, you are already quiet.
if you don't care about the price and want them, you already bought/built one.
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Maeltstome
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Posted - 2007.03.09 04:34:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Eralus If you think rigs are too expensive, there is one reason for this opinion and one reason only:
You are a poor player.
If you were not a poor player, you would figure out how to use the price of rigs to make yourself some money.
Its 700mil (thats 0.7bil) isk for a cap rig Tech II. That was never the intention.
Now go back to your CNR and ***** more LVL 4's in your priavte little world.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.03.09 04:56:00 -
[54]
It's late, I'm angry and tired.
This thread is full of morons as opposed to reasonable people like the O.P. for instance.
Problem is, you need wrecks to get salvage components, and most "wrecks" generated gave a good deal of ISK to the one "creating" them in the first place, and you have the alternative to either salvage or go destroy more ships... you will do whatever it is that makes you more money. Therefore, as long as drop rates remain constant, the "basket price" of a typical salvage session will be about the same as how much ISK you could have made ignoring salvage and going hunting again.
The PRICE of the RIG COMPONENTS is determined by the market, depending on WHAT rigs are useful (so which components are used in them and which aren't) and what the "basket price" of a salvage session is... which is a NON-NEGOTIABLE price. If you make less money by salvaging, you no longer salvage, period. Well, that unless you're really STUPID or in a special situation, like, for instance, being the newbie that runs behind a corpmate's ratting/missioning operation.
Wether you salvage yourself, buy salvage components from the market, build rigs yourself or buy them ready built... IT DOESN'T MAKE A DAMN DIFFERENCE as the ISK value is the GORRAM SAME, you stupid twits.
As for rigs "not being for everybody", whoever says that one more time after the arguments already presented gets the "absolute freaking moron" thread award. But in case you missed it, here's some of them again: FACT 1 : CCP personnel SAID IN THE FORUM when rigs were being first tested on SiSi that their intended purpose was to greatly vary the setups you see in PvP for all classes of ships, ESPECIALLY the smaller/cheaper ones. FACT 2 : all ships have rig slots. Even T1 frigates. That cost under 300k ISK a piece. Rigs should have comparable prices. FACT 3 : *MOST* rigs are useless on large ships (or grossly overclassed by a handfull of rigs like CCC/SMC), and a vast majority of rigs only make ANY sense whatsoever on FRIGATES
In closing, a salute to the OP for bringing up this subject up from the grave of "ignored land" yet again... but I fear all of this is in vain, nobody seems to be listening... or whoever listens doesn't have the brain to understand it. _ MySkills | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Templer Relleg
x13 Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.09 06:30:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Akita T It's late, I'm angry and tired.
This thread is full of morons as opposed to reasonable people like the O.P. for instance.
Problem is, you need wrecks to get salvage components, and most "wrecks" generated gave a good deal of ISK to the one "creating" them in the first place, and you have the alternative to either salvage or go destroy more ships... you will do whatever it is that makes you more money. Therefore, as long as drop rates remain constant, the "basket price" of a typical salvage session will be about the same as how much ISK you could have made ignoring salvage and going hunting again.
The PRICE of the RIG COMPONENTS is determined by the market, depending on WHAT rigs are useful (so which components are used in them and which aren't) and what the "basket price" of a salvage session is... which is a NON-NEGOTIABLE price. If you make less money by salvaging, you no longer salvage, period. Well, that unless you're really STUPID or in a special situation, like, for instance, being the newbie that runs behind a corpmate's ratting/missioning operation.
Wether you salvage yourself, buy salvage components from the market, build rigs yourself or buy them ready built... IT DOESN'T MAKE A DAMN DIFFERENCE as the ISK value is the GORRAM SAME, you stupid twits.
As for rigs "not being for everybody", whoever says that one more time after the arguments already presented gets the "absolute freaking moron" thread award. But in case you missed it, here's some of them again: FACT 1 : CCP personnel SAID IN THE FORUM when rigs were being first tested on SiSi that their intended purpose was to greatly vary the setups you see in PvP for all classes of ships, ESPECIALLY the smaller/cheaper ones. FACT 2 : all ships have rig slots. Even T1 frigates. That cost under 300k ISK a piece. Rigs should have comparable prices. FACT 3 : *MOST* rigs are useless on large ships (or grossly overclassed by a handfull of rigs like CCC/SMC), and a vast majority of rigs only make ANY sense whatsoever on FRIGATES
In closing, a salute to the OP for bringing up this subject up from the grave of "ignored land" yet again... but I fear all of this is in vain, nobody seems to be listening... or whoever listens doesn't have the brain to understand it.
Fantastic post!
People who flame me: Try and re-read my post. Im asking CCP something. Whatever i think its worth it or not. I sincerely give MY opinion on this topic which is quite clear. But hence the topic title, its says "CCP" in there, so this post is really aimed at getting a dev to answer me, what they think about rigs as it is, and what they are gonna do.
Again, i must thank the quoted post for summing up what we are saying in a fantastic way!
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Awox
Infinitus Odium
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Posted - 2007.03.09 07:21:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Paigan With a price from still 10-40mil for even the T1 ones, rigs are only relevant for three groups of people: - mission runners / PvEers - capital pilots - T2 BPO design-error money-printer owners
For the normal all-day-pvp guy, they're still not reasonably usable. .. Just another thing that CCPs completely messed up. But, as i'm part of group 1 and as well group 2, i can live with it.
I'm not in any of those groups, an all-day-pvp guy as you would say. I can afford them just fine. All of my ships are rigged. Even my interceptors, interdictors, assault frigates and battlecruisers are rigged.
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Awox
Infinitus Odium
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Posted - 2007.03.09 07:27:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Akita T But in case you missed it, here's some of them again: FACT 1 : CCP personnel SAID IN THE FORUM when rigs were being first tested on SiSi that their intended purpose was to greatly vary the setups you see in PvP for all classes of ships, ESPECIALLY the smaller/cheaper ones.
Yeah, and they do that. My small ship setups have varied greatly thanks to the various rigs available. Why haven't yours?
Originally by: Akita T FACT 2 : all ships have rig slots. Even T1 frigates. That cost under 300k ISK a piece. Rigs should have comparable prices.
Why is that? Some frigates cost more than cruisers and BC even but most frigates cannot kill cruisers let alone battlecruisers. So why should small stuff always be cheap?
Originally by: Akita T FACT 3 : *MOST* rigs are useless on large ships (or grossly overclassed by a handfull of rigs like CCC/SMC), and a vast majority of rigs only make ANY sense whatsoever on FRIGATES
I'd like a show of hands from everyone who puts CCC on their PvP battleship.. right, not many. Maybe capitals or mission runners, or maybe abaddons who can't hold their cap (lol amarr) those rigs aren't suitable for PvP with the oh so popular nosferatus.
If you think a rig works better on a frigate, keep it on a frigate.. doesn't that make sense?
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EscapeArtist
Caldari GeoTech Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.09 07:30:00 -
[58]
In my mind, rigs where suppose to cost a lot less than they do now. I believe I read somewhere maybe a DevBlog or something way before Rev. went live, that they where supposed to be cheap and easy none reusable plug-inĘs for ships... Ergo fetching the same sort of price a normal parts (100-1m isk).
Of course the price will be higher on release, just look at the prices of the tier 3 BS when rev. went live, but at present, I can not see the price of rigs dropping unless the salvage system is changed. I do make my own rigs, but you have to run one hell of a lot of missions to build even a few rigs. ------ I am Legend |
Kaptein Trefot
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Posted - 2007.03.09 10:33:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Kaptein Trefot on 09/03/2007 10:30:03 I think the current prices are fine for BS class ships, but it seems rather stupid that the same rigs that fits a BS also fit a fr.
As has already been suggested make them size dependant;
Fr = small rigs De = med rigs Cr/BC = large rigs BS = x-large rigs Cap ships = cap rigs (shockingly)
Increase the dropping rate and ajust the needed component ratio between the different sized rigs.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.03.09 12:45:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Awox Some frigates cost more than cruisers and BC even but most frigates cannot kill cruisers let alone battlecruisers. So why should small stuff always be cheap?
REALLY ? When was the last time you triple-rigged your Rifter, Kestrel, Incursus or Punisher ? Or for that matter, when did you last time triple-rigged your Vexor, Caracal, Rupture or Maller ?
Wait, you didn't ? And you're only talking T2 SHIPS below battlecruiser class here ? Well, that would certainly explain it.
Problem is, it's THOSE "dirt cheap" ships rigs were supposed to help most. And due to the PRICE EFFECTIVENESS, it makes almost no sense to fit out a 0.3-6 mil ship with 30-100 mil worth of rigs only to barely increase its potential, when you could easily buy and fit a higher class ship several times over for that money. _ MySkills | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
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