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Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
1253
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Posted - 2016.07.21 08:37:44 -
[31] - Quote
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:Black Pedro wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:So yeah, I agree with the OP, the amount of Minerals required to build the Materials is too much. Also the amount of Materials required to build the hull is too much.
Seriously, I know this game is a time sink but this is just ridiculous. New Eden has a complex, interdependent player-driven economy. In order to give meaning to the actives of miners and other PvE-ers, it is necessary to have a large demand for resources to build, as well as a constant destruction of assets. You are not intended to mine all the ore yourself to build a freighter in an evening or even a month. If everyone could do that there would be no market as everyone would be self-sufficient and assets would have no value. You are intended to by ore/minerals from dozens or even hundreds of miners giving their in-game activities a real purpose and value. It's why people pay almost 2-PLEX or $40 worth of real currency to be able to have a freighter. As to the OP, the fact that most ships are sold at or near build cost is completely determined by the players. Now, one can argue that industry is currently too fast, safe, and easy given that industrialists are willing to accept such low profit margins, and that CCP should make industry, especially highsec industry, more difficult, but ultimately the prices and values of built goods are determined by the players. Now as to the mineral requirements for T2 vs T1 ships, that is completely intentional as explained above. Just as you have decide whether that long train for a level 5 skill is worth it over the much shorter train to level 4, whether to field the more costly T2 ship instead of lower-performing T1 ship is a choice you, the player, have to make. Sounds like the T1 ship is better suited for your needs, or at least what you think your needs are, so it is perhaps best to stick with them given you seem to value the reduced cost over the marginal increase in performance. Why on earth would a ship that one person flys require a community. idk how long it took him to gather all of those assets. If its player driven then why are the requirements set in stone? If most ships are sold at near manufacturing price doesn't that mean the price is too high because it is bumping up against what people are willing to pay via supply demand and other factors?
More like you need a community to extract the resources to build the ship, produce the tech II blueprints needed to build the ship, actually build the ship and ship the ship to the market to be sold to you.
Material requirements are set in stone because OF COURSE IT IS. If it takes x kg of gold and silicon to produce a circult board, you don't get to democratically vote to reduce it. Instead, you need people to refine the process of manufacturing to reduce the materials needed. Translated to Eve universe, that means another community of dudes who do research to produce blueprint copies with reduced material requirements. And those guys? They used time and fuel and blueprint originals costs and want to be reimbursed! So you have to pay those guys for their blueprint copies too for their asking price. Think it's not worth it? Find someone else who is selling at fairer price.
Taxes, manufacturing fees and etc are also set in stone. Material cost, on the other hand, ISN'T. One unit of tritanium at this point happens to be X isk not because of some arbitrary number decided by the game system and more because the sellers are selling that trit for that amount of isk and someone agreed to buy that unit of isk for the asking price.
What part of manufacturing do you not understand?
A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
2635
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Posted - 2016.07.21 08:52:22 -
[32] - Quote
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:Why on earth would a ship that one person flys require a community. idk how long it took him to gather all of those assets. If its player driven then why are the requirements set in stone? If most ships are sold at near manufacturing price doesn't that mean the price is too high because it is bumping up against what people are willing to pay via supply demand and other factors? Because this is a social, persistent MMO? It is not some lobby spaceship combat game where you linearly proceed up through the ranks of ships.
Honestly, the materials for most ships, even the exhumers you are whining about, can be mined a single player with only small or moderate amount of effort. But not all ships or infrastructure, and as you get up to the levels of capitals and Citadels, you require the output of large organizations to meet the built requirements. This is all intended and gives us challenges to work towards together and value to these expensive ships.
And no, the fact that ships are sold near built cost just means that industry is too easy or that market is too crowded. Given that almost anyone with the moderate amount of skills can spend 2 minutes clicking and turn minerals into a ship a few hours or days later in an invulnerable station or highsec POS means there is no challenge or effort in building things and transporting it to a trade hub also has almost no risk. That's all. All things that can be made by players so easily will trend towards build costs, especially if it is so easy and safe that a single player can do it with no risk.
Both the lowest demand, and the most desirable ships in this game still aren't too far above build costs in the trade hubs. Supply and demand only will influence price if there is some scarcity in the market either because things are difficult/risky/restricted to build, or hard to transport. In highsec today we have neither of these things so most build-able items cost what the minerals cost, plus a tiny fee to compensate the industrialist for a few minutes of their time to make it and the market taxes.
Why Do They Gank?
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Chopper Rollins
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1434
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Posted - 2016.07.21 11:10:00 -
[33] - Quote
Nitshe Razvedka wrote:Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri wrote: A few beans and some observations made in a back-water economy does not make a universal principal. The USA economy makes your %'s look base. Typical Code methodology cherry picking for answers.
Try reading more than the first four lines. The Pareto principle is an illustration of a "power law" relationship, which also occurs in phenomena such as brush fires and earthquakes. Because it is self-similar over a wide range of magnitudes, it produces outcomes completely different from Gaussian distribution phenomena. This fact explains the frequent breakdowns of sophisticated financial instruments, which are modeled on the assumption that a Gaussian relationship is appropriate to, for example, stock price movements.
Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
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Erebus Vain
State War Academy Caldari State
13
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Posted - 2016.07.21 11:21:46 -
[34] - Quote
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:"bigger isn't better?" This is eve dude. Whoever has more of the bigger sticks wins.
Are we mining with sticks now? |
Dirty Forum Alt
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
258
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Posted - 2016.07.21 11:39:18 -
[35] - Quote
T2 mining ship costs are exactly on par with all other T2 ships in the game. Yet I don't see anybody complaining that T2 combat ships cost way too much to build and should be much much cheaper.
Why is it always the *miners* who demand to be the special snowflakes?
Also @DMC - In my exploration of EVE I actually tried mining, and more relevantly large-scale manufacturing - and I'd have to say that the issue with your profit margins is much more a product of people undervaluing their time/effort investment into their work/materials than it is a factor of build cost. The manufacturing market has pitifully small margins all the way from the small/cheap end of the spectrum to the big/expensive items - and I don't really think lowering build prices would do anything but open the more expensive items up to even more small-scale idiots who would rush to drop the sale prices and tank your profit margin even more. |
Memphis Baas
1743
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Posted - 2016.07.21 11:54:39 -
[36] - Quote
So what exactly do you propose, OP?
Because, CCP decides building costs (in terms of what mats the blueprint requires). But players decide the cost of minerals, and the price of the ship.
You're asking that the price of the ship be adjusted. Given who controls it, good luck convincing the rest of the playerbase.
Otherwise, if you're asking CCP to modify the blueprint to require fewer materials, guess what? The price of the ship will follow the new, lower costs, and the ship will still not be profitable to manufacture.
You're proposing that the entire player base changes its market trading behavior. It's laughable. |
Brigadine Ferathine
The Valiant Vanguard The Volition Cult
77
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Posted - 2016.07.21 12:08:05 -
[37] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:So what exactly do you propose, OP?
Because, CCP decides building costs (in terms of what mats the blueprint requires). But players decide the cost of minerals, and the price of the ship.
You're asking that the price of the ship be adjusted. Given who controls it, good luck convincing the rest of the playerbase.
Otherwise, if you're asking CCP to modify the blueprint to require fewer materials, guess what? The price of the ship will follow the new, lower costs, and the ship will still not be profitable to manufacture.
You're proposing that the entire player base changes its market trading behavior. It's laughable. Actually you got my message about the manufacturing, however I have no interest in making them. It about them being worth the cost(lowering the material cost).
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:T2 mining ship costs are exactly on par with all other T2 ships in the game. Yet I don't see anybody complaining that T2 combat ships cost way too much to build and should be much much cheaper comparing ships that are almost exclusively used for pvp and the thing that makes those pvp ships possible is stupid. The pvpers that use T2 don't care about the cost like miners because miners have to look at money made vs money lost. Pvpers don't. Do you have ANY idea how many hours it takes to break even on a 250 million isk mining ship? |
Memphis Baas
1744
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Posted - 2016.07.21 12:13:44 -
[38] - Quote
So exactly how many hours does it take to break even on a 250 million ISK PVP ship, from PVP'ing with it? |
Dirty Forum Alt
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
258
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Posted - 2016.07.21 12:19:13 -
[39] - Quote
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:Dirty Forum Alt wrote:T2 mining ship costs are exactly on par with all other T2 ships in the game. Yet I don't see anybody complaining that T2 combat ships cost way too much to build and should be much much cheaper comparing ships that are almost exclusively used for pvp and the thing that makes those pvp ships possible is stupid. The pvpers that use T2 don't care about the cost like miners because miners have to look at money made vs money lost. Pvpers don't. Do you have ANY idea how many hours it takes to break even on a 250 million isk mining ship? No, it isn't stupid. They are in the same game, and they have similar reward increases for similar cost increases. This is what we in the video game world call "balanced". *You* are demanding that the balance be upset and that you be given special privileges just because you choose to be a miner.
Yes I do have a good idea how many hours it takes to break even on a 250 million isk mining ship. I also have a good idea how many *tens of thousands* of miners manage to do it, because they believe the reward is worth the investment.
Believe it or not, *some* miners even invest ~750 million isk into an orca or *2 billion* isk into a rorqual to further increase their mining yield - not to mention a billion isk a month per account for PLEX...
Just because you suck at your chosen profession doesn't mean CCP needs to bail you out. Deal with it.
And contrary to popular belief - PvPers have to get their money from somewhere too - we don't just buy PLEX to do it (or at least most of us don't) - so once again, why should you be special and get things handed to you for cheap while we have to pay full price? |
Brigadine Ferathine
The Valiant Vanguard The Volition Cult
77
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Posted - 2016.07.21 12:21:03 -
[40] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:So exactly how many hours does it take to break even on a 250 million ISK PVP ship, from PVP'ing with it? You don't PvP to make money is my point... |
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Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
338
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Posted - 2016.07.21 12:24:21 -
[41] - Quote
I bought a 250M PvP ship once and it died in a horrible fire, before me breaking even on my valuable investment. If I remember correct, I may have looted around 30M in loot and it took ages to find something to kill.
Laughable ROI and I would not recommend anyone to ever buy one of these. Obviously there is something horribly wrong with how the system works, and CCP must lower the building costs of all PvP ships immediately.
What is the purpose of such expensive PvP ships, if I can't even make back their initial investment. CCP FIX PLZ! |
Memphis Baas
1745
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Posted - 2016.07.21 12:24:33 -
[42] - Quote
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:You don't PvP to make money is my point...
You don't mine to make money has been our point this whole thread.
Think about it. Literally anything else will make more money per hour than mining in high sec. So why would you mine in high sec? With an expensive ship, too. |
Dirty Forum Alt
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
260
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Posted - 2016.07.21 12:24:54 -
[43] - Quote
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:Memphis Baas wrote:So exactly how many hours does it take to break even on a 250 million ISK PVP ship, from PVP'ing with it? You don't PvP to make money is my point... *You* don't PvP to make money you mean. Some of us do.
For me, as a solo war-deccer....I can probably make 250 million back in a week or so if I find a good target and hunt them actively all week - though finding one who will try to take their pos tower down so I can steal it is a better bet for reliable income.
For the large hub-campers who use blanket decs - probably 1-2 days of sitting on the gate. That is why they do what they do after all - it is a reliable supply of kills and income.
Before I turned a profit in PvP, 250 mil would have taken me about 5 hours of Level 4 missioning to make - because I run them lazily. The money still has to be earned, even if you can't earn it in the ship you are spending it on. |
Brigadine Ferathine
The Valiant Vanguard The Volition Cult
77
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Posted - 2016.07.21 12:26:44 -
[44] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:You don't mine to make money has been our point this whole thread.
Think about it.
Literally anything else will make more money per hour than mining in high sec. So why would you mine in high sec? With an expensive ship, too. I don't mine in high sec... Haven't in a while. |
Dirty Forum Alt
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
260
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Posted - 2016.07.21 12:32:04 -
[45] - Quote
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:Memphis Baas wrote:You don't mine to make money has been our point this whole thread.
Think about it.
Literally anything else will make more money per hour than mining in high sec. So why would you mine in high sec? With an expensive ship, too. I don't mine in high sec... Haven't in a while. Then you should have no issue making 250 million isk.
Also - why does the fact that you are in a profession where your stated goal is to make money mean your ships should be *cheaper* than those who supposedly don't make any money? Shouldn't that be the other way around? Shouldn't the PvP ships be significantly cheaper, since the pilots won't earn any money with them - and you miners should pay *even more* than you do now because *you* are the lucky ones making money to pay for them...
I really don't think you have thought this out at all. |
Hengle Teron
Order In Disorder Curatores Veritatis Alliance
60083
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Posted - 2016.07.21 12:35:43 -
[46] - Quote
If it's not worth to use it, don't use it. Why does it bother you that there's something better out there? |
Brigadine Ferathine
The Valiant Vanguard The Volition Cult
77
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Posted - 2016.07.21 12:41:29 -
[47] - Quote
Hengle Teron wrote:If it's not worth to use it, don't use it. Why does it bother you that there's something better out there? Because what is better should not be better. |
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
808
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Posted - 2016.07.21 12:45:53 -
[48] - Quote
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:Memphis Baas wrote:So exactly how many hours does it take to break even on a 250 million ISK PVP ship, from PVP'ing with it? You don't PvP to make money is my point...
tell that to Miniluv, who make (made?) squillions of ISK ganking freighters in hisec.
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
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Brigadine Ferathine
The Valiant Vanguard The Volition Cult
77
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Posted - 2016.07.21 12:47:04 -
[49] - Quote
Mephiztopheleze wrote:Brigadine Ferathine wrote:Memphis Baas wrote:So exactly how many hours does it take to break even on a 250 million ISK PVP ship, from PVP'ing with it? You don't PvP to make money is my point... tell that to Miniluv, who make (made?) squillions of ISK ganking freighters in hisec. Don't even get me started about high sec ganking.... |
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
16929
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Posted - 2016.07.21 12:52:59 -
[50] - Quote
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:Hengle Teron wrote:If it's not worth to use it, don't use it. Why does it bother you that there's something better out there? Because what is better should not be better.
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore
14299
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Posted - 2016.07.21 12:55:50 -
[51] - Quote
Hey, My Ishtar costs 3.3 times more than my Vexor Navy Issue. My VNI does about 650 dps with drones.
Using Brigadine Ferathine "logic" my Ishtar should be doing at least 2145 DPS!!! Make it happen CCP.
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Nitshe Razvedka
993
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Posted - 2016.07.21 12:56:52 -
[52] - Quote
Chopper Rollins wrote:Nitshe Razvedka wrote:Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri wrote: A few beans and some observations made in a back-water economy does not make a universal principal. The USA economy makes your %'s look base. Typical Code methodology cherry picking for answers. Try reading more than the first four lines. The Pareto principle is an illustration of a "power law" relationship, which also occurs in phenomena such as brush fires and earthquakes. Because it is self-similar over a wide range of magnitudes, it produces outcomes completely different from Gaussian distribution phenomena. This fact explains the frequent breakdowns of sophisticated financial instruments, which are modeled on the assumption that a Gaussian relationship is appropriate to, for example, stock price movements.
You seem well read Chopper so I link this reference. I am still learning to this day, If gave a Quantitative Research supervisor a 20:80 "template" to argue a point with no figures or analysis he would have a hissy fit. I am more insouciant. Hope you enjoy the read.
Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS.
Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
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Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore
14299
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Posted - 2016.07.21 12:57:53 -
[53] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:What a surprise that reply confused you.
Funny how that works, double funny how that works with every player who has a problem with something and thinks it's the game's fault rather than their own ignorance. |
Remiel Pollard
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
7649
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Posted - 2016.07.21 13:03:41 -
[54] - Quote
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:Hengle Teron wrote:If it's not worth to use it, don't use it. Why does it bother you that there's something better out there? Because what is better should not be better.
Never have I ever seen more meaningless words spoken on these forums.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Dirty Forum Alt
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
261
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Posted - 2016.07.21 13:07:00 -
[55] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Hey, My Ishtar costs 3.3 times more than my Vexor Navy Issue. My VNI does about 650 dps with drones.
Using Brigadine Ferathine "logic" my Ishtar should be doing at least 2145 DPS!!! Make it happen CCP. To be fair - they did already make that happen when they had that drone glitch that stacked the bonuses if you switched ships... |
Memphis Baas
1747
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Posted - 2016.07.21 13:20:31 -
[56] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Brigadine Ferathine wrote: Because what is better should not be better.
Care to explain tha statement for us?
He's realized that his posts were stupid and feels the need to leave this thread, but needs to have the last word, so he's limiting his replies to nonsense one-liners.
This thread is pretty much done. Only things that can happen now are either a flame war of one-liners, or going off-topic on a million tangents.
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Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
808
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Posted - 2016.07.21 13:20:35 -
[57] - Quote
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:Don't even get me started about high sec ganking....
It's PvP, it can be very profitable. Your argument is invalid.
Personally, I've found that hunting 0.0 ratters can be far more profitable than simply ratting.
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
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Brigadine Ferathine
The Valiant Vanguard The Volition Cult
77
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Posted - 2016.07.21 13:23:04 -
[58] - Quote
Mephiztopheleze wrote:Brigadine Ferathine wrote:Don't even get me started about high sec ganking.... It's PvP, it can be very profitable. Your argument is invalid. Personally, I've found that hunting 0.0 ratters can be far more profitable than simply ratting. Hunting ratters is not pvp lol. Its player versus defenseless player (PvDP)
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
16929
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Posted - 2016.07.21 13:25:29 -
[59] - Quote
Still players mate. Still have to explain that line above too.
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Maekchu
Gunpoint Diplomacy
338
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Posted - 2016.07.21 13:27:02 -
[60] - Quote
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:Mephiztopheleze wrote:Brigadine Ferathine wrote:Don't even get me started about high sec ganking.... It's PvP, it can be very profitable. Your argument is invalid. Personally, I've found that hunting 0.0 ratters can be far more profitable than simply ratting. Hunting ratters is not pvp lol. Its player versus defenseless player (PvDP) Omg, not this ******* discussion again... -.-
PvDP is not something that exists. PvE and PvP are terms, created for games describing actions between specific entities. Since ganking involves only player character on player character conflict, it is PvP.
Also, you didn't explain your nonsense statement Because what is better should not be better.
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