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Shiloh Templeton
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
560
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Posted - 2016.07.25 22:32:05 -
[1] - Quote
I have a SB char for this but would like to expand to a more powerful ship. Does training for a Stratios or Proteus make more sense?
This is mostly for WH space and I wouldn't care that much about a 3 day SP loss.
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Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
45
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Posted - 2016.07.25 23:16:27 -
[2] - Quote
stratios and proteous can handle more types of ships respect to a stealth bomber. so... yea.
between the two i'd probably opt for the stratios: - no loss of Sp - cheaper respect a well fitted proteus - you can fit it with an all rounded fit while for the proteous you need different subsystems for each fit --> too much compromise
In case you decide for a roam in nullsec, hunting ratters, then the nullifier proteus makes more sense respect a stratios. And maybe your next step will be in black ops battleships, but for those you need a team etc. |
Tsukino Stareine
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
1600
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Posted - 2016.07.26 00:13:26 -
[3] - Quote
strat is probably overall better since you can push a good 400+ dps while sporting neuts, lethal combo against most unsuspecting targets |
Shiloh Templeton
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
560
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Posted - 2016.07.26 00:27:49 -
[4] - Quote
Do the Strat and Proteus have the same targeting time?
The range of the Stratios is a nice advantage. As well as the cargo capacity. Subsystems use up the T3 space quickly.
When I started playing, cloaky proteus's were supposedly everywhere so it was long term goal for me - I guess the SOE ship really changed the equation.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
17068
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Posted - 2016.07.26 00:43:16 -
[5] - Quote
More or less, the strat has the layout for a sebo if its a concern. The strats mid slots give a lot of options.
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Soel Reit
Dambusters 617 Sq
46
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Posted - 2016.07.26 00:47:44 -
[6] - Quote
pretty much the same: the proteus has something more but that's for subsystem bonuses.... so.... not really a problem.
i mean strategic cruiser are still everywhere, specially when it comes to light a cyno
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Tsukino Stareine
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
1600
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Posted - 2016.07.26 03:11:28 -
[7] - Quote
Shiloh Templeton wrote:Do the Strat and Proteus have the same targeting time?
The range of the Stratios is a nice advantage. As well as the cargo capacity. Subsystems use up the T3 space quickly.
When I started playing, cloaky proteus's were supposedly everywhere so it was long term goal for me - I guess the SOE ship really changed the equation.
If you mean the decloak targeting delay, yes they're both set at 5 seconds |
elitatwo
Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1344
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Posted - 2016.07.26 07:05:00 -
[8] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:...you can push a good 400+ dps while sporting neuts...
That's sounds more like a Pilgrim. Or it does sound like you cannot ever win any fight without bringing 908928485762 neuts. Neut = ship neutralizer. Only a ship neutralizer neutralizes ships, there is not other way anymore. If you don't bring neuts, you lose, your character get's biomassed and there isn't any other option - at all.
If your ship doesn't have neut, you cannot neutralize it.
Forget guns, drones, missiles or anything else. The much gooderererererer option is to remove those from the database, they useless anyways. No gun, or drones or missiles will save you, only neuts do. Fit neuts to any boat out there. Yes even the Falcon. ECM is useless, nobody uses it anymore because neuts = win.
The only thing in EVE is you want to win, every time you undock. Go anywhere an you need neuts. Forget stasis webbifiers or any other mod.
That's why everyone only flies carriers with neuts, motherships with neuts and titans, well they have rapid doomsdays, so they don't need one. The second you here a doomsday, you dead - BANG.
If you didn't bring neuts, your fault, you could not win without one. Don't ever fit gun on any boat, bring neut.
This is the only possible way. Bring neut and neutralize your enemies with the ship neutralizer. Let the server fight itself with zee drones, everything else is just useless.
Neut and you win EVE.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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afk phone
Repo Industries
24
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Posted - 2016.07.26 11:45:07 -
[9] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:...you can push a good 400+ dps while sporting neuts... That's sounds more like a Pilgrim. Or it does sound like you cannot ever win any fight without bringing 908928485762 neuts. Neut = ship neutralizer. Only a ship neutralizer neutralizes ships, there is not other way anymore. If you don't bring neuts, you lose, your character get's biomassed and there isn't any other option - at all. If your ship doesn't have neut, you cannot neutralize it. Forget guns, drones, missiles or anything else. The much gooderererererer option is to remove those from the database, they useless anyways. No gun, or drones or missiles will save you, only neuts do. Fit neuts to any boat out there. Yes even the Falcon. ECM is useless, nobody uses it anymore because neuts = win. The only thing in EVE is you want to win, every time you undock. Go anywhere an you need neuts. Forget stasis webbifiers or any other mod. That's why everyone only flies carriers with neuts, motherships with neuts and titans, well they have rapid doomsdays, so they don't need one. The second you here a doomsday, you dead - BANG. If you didn't bring neuts, your fault, you could not win without one. Don't ever fit gun on any boat, bring neut. This is the only possible way. Bring neut and neutralize your enemies with the ship neutralizer. Let the server fight itself with zee drones, everything else is just useless. Neut and you win EVE.
Go on a vacation for a week. Come back happy! |
Tsukino Stareine
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
1600
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Posted - 2016.07.26 13:09:59 -
[10] - Quote
Not my fault if you refuse to follow the meta Elita |
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elitatwo
Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1344
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Posted - 2016.07.26 16:18:20 -
[11] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:Not my fault if you refuse to follow the meta Elita
Not you, silly. I know what people fit on a Stratios, sometimes even shields -.-
I am following the meta and if you did look it up I was flying neuts, now I am not and I am not willing to pay 250m isk for a Curse.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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Valkin Mordirc
2223
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Posted - 2016.07.26 23:13:54 -
[12] - Quote
I prefer the stratios. It gets less DPS and less Tank than the proteus but it's by far more versatile. Plus it's spacious cargo hold means you can pretty much carry two fits with you at all times, and still have room for Cap boosters,
#DeleteTheWeak
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Shiloh Templeton
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
561
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Posted - 2016.07.27 00:35:27 -
[13] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:...you can push a good 400+ dps while sporting neuts... . . . Neut and you win EVE. Have a like for the quality of the epic rant! |
Shiloh Templeton
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
561
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Posted - 2016.07.27 00:39:14 -
[14] - Quote
Stratios it is then - thanks for the feedback, even if it makes me feel like I missed out on the era of Eve when the Proteus was king of solo ganking.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
17086
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Posted - 2016.07.27 01:01:32 -
[15] - Quote
Oh you havent, prot still nips around quicker, gets a point range bonus and dps's stuff to death better . Its still a beast, just now its got company.
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
441
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Posted - 2016.07.27 10:32:39 -
[16] - Quote
At least for K-space stratios > proteus by a lot, mostly cause the proteus doesnt do great dps and most importantly cant carry neuts.
Just fit it with the standard shield kitey fit with neuts. Something like https://zkillboard.com/kill/54510869/ . |
Switch Savage
The Tuskers The Tuskers Co.
244
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Posted - 2016.07.28 09:55:29 -
[17] - Quote
It is worth noting that an XL ASB stratios gets around 20,000 more ehp than a x2 LSE stratios, just be sure to pop a standard blue pill. I run mine with a scram to prevent MJDs but it could be easily tweaked to a disruptor kite fit.
[Stratios, XL ASB Stratios] Co-Processor II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Damage Control II
50MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Caldari Navy Warp Scrambler X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400 Dark Blood Small Capacitor Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II Medium Gremlin Compact Energy Neutralizer Medium Gremlin Compact Energy Neutralizer Medium Gremlin Compact Energy Neutralizer Small Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
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Paranoid Loyd
9318
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Posted - 2016.07.28 17:21:04 -
[18] - Quote
Switch Savage wrote:It is worth noting that an XL ASB stratios gets around 20,000 more ehp than a x2 LSE stratios, just be sure to pop a standard blue pill. I run mine with a scram to prevent MJDs but it could be easily tweaked to a disruptor kite fit.
[Stratios, XL ASB Stratios] Co-Processor II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Damage Control II
50MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Caldari Navy Warp Scrambler X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400 Dark Blood Small Capacitor Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II Medium Gremlin Compact Energy Neutralizer Medium Gremlin Compact Energy Neutralizer Medium Gremlin Compact Energy Neutralizer Small Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Also requires EE-603 or am I missing something?
Fix the Prospect! New Server Hardware!
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Switch Savage
The Tuskers The Tuskers Co.
246
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Posted - 2016.07.29 08:15:19 -
[19] - Quote
Yeah will require a 603 unless you meta the DC and mini pimp the co-proc. |
afk phone
Repo Industries
32
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Posted - 2016.07.29 10:50:12 -
[20] - Quote
Shiloh Templeton wrote:I have a SB char for this but would like to expand to a more powerful ship. Does training for a Stratios or Proteus make more sense?
This is mostly for WH space and I wouldn't care that much about a 3 day SP loss.
The uncloaking time delay sux and watching your prey warp of while spamming to lock sux even more. Both ships have their good points and both have the uncloaking delay.
Not trying to derail the thread, but take a look at the recons too. For wh space their d-scan invisibility is pretty powerful. The Lachesis has multipoint options that will hold down those multi stabbed grrr fits. Who doesn't love the curse? Huggin is great for non stabbed opponents. Rook - meh for solo work, you pretty much place an all or nothing bet when you initiate warp to the engagement - it shines brighter in gangs than it does for solo work.
Personally I like the stratios as it provides a lot of fitting options and anyone that can master the stratios (all of it, not just one fit) has got a pretty good grip on the game.
For small to medium gangs, the low dps high buffer cloaky (and worstest of all - interdicted) proteus w/ guardian backup is the most unfun ship in wh space. We just leave if that fleet shows up. Cloaky interdicted stabbed buffer T3 is a SCOUT ship, everyone please stop making it a fleet doctrine once and for all.9 (SHEEEESH). |
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Tsukino Stareine
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
1608
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Posted - 2016.07.29 20:02:07 -
[21] - Quote
People who are saying that prot gets more dps than a strat: have you ever fitted a cloaky prot? The DPS barely gets up to 470 if you have some kind of tank on it. |
Valkin Mordirc
2232
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Posted - 2016.07.29 20:39:34 -
[22] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:People who are saying that prot gets more dps than a strat: have you ever fitted a cloaky prot? The DPS barely gets up to 470 if you have some kind of tank on it.
Uh..
My Cloaky Proteus will get 494 with anti matter cold, With faction Mag stabs it jumps to 517, Void jumps it 577.
So...Yeah no.
A Strat if neut fitted will be somewhere around 450, a pulse strat with be 600 but can't really buffer fit it will out fitting mods, so you lose tank.
#DeleteTheWeak
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W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
442
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Posted - 2016.07.29 21:01:15 -
[23] - Quote
The strats linked the previous page or about 600dps or so with neuts. You dont need massive tanks to kill pve ships, you need dps and neuts and damage selection. |
Valkin Mordirc
2232
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Posted - 2016.07.29 21:22:53 -
[24] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:The strats linked the previous page or about 600dps or so with neuts. You dont need massive tanks to kill pve ships, you need dps and neuts and damage selection.
Who said anything about PVE ships? =3
As far as I'm aware it's about the pros and cons between to the ships as hunter/killers. And if you get jumped which tends to happen if you going after PVE ships, you do want some kind of tank to try and disengage and GTFO if you want to. A Bigger tank also means it's more likely you can stay on field and fight whatever happens to join in.
I edited by previous post, but yeah,
A Stat will out DPS a proteus, and has the added benifits of neuts. If you discount a DC in favor of a third Mag Stab the proteus can get up to 640 DPS, but that's with Void. A proteus has much more tanking capabilities then the stratios will get. It's also faster, but has a shitter align time then the stratios. It tends to be more pricey as well. The stratios is also more versatile in it's fitting, capable of armor or shield tanking and can be neut fitted or fitted with turret weapons.
Overall I would still say the Stratios is better ship for the role of a hunter/killer. But the Proteus shouldn't be discounted.
#DeleteTheWeak
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Tsukino Stareine
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
1610
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Posted - 2016.07.30 17:17:49 -
[25] - Quote
I'm not seeing a fit that can get the numbers you're quoting, mind sharing? |
Valkin Mordirc
2239
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Posted - 2016.07.31 03:57:01 -
[26] - Quote
[Proteus, Unnamed loadout]
Low: Damage Control II Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste Corpum C-Type Medium Armor Repairer Corpum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Armor Explosive Hardener II
Mids: Dread Guristas Warp Scrambler 50MN Microwarpdrive II Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Highs: Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Rigs: Medium Nanobot Accelerator I Medium Nanobot Accelerator I Medium Hybrid Collision Accelerator I
Subs: Proteus Defensive - Nanobot Injector Proteus Engineering - Power Core Multiplier Proteus Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration Proteus Electronics - Friction Extension Processor Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors
Best from memory and using Osmium since I'm at work, but I can grab my actually fit when I'm home. This fit isn't cap stable, but it's like 9mins cap life so it's more than enough.
#DeleteTheWeak
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elitatwo
Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1346
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Posted - 2016.07.31 10:42:00 -
[27] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:The strats linked the previous page or about 600dps or so with neuts. You dont need massive tanks to kill pve ships, you need dps and neuts and damage selection.
That is only a minimum and what I tried to elaborate on in my turret thread. The Stratios' fitting screen may show 462dps with one damage amplifier but all the traits of turrets apply to drones too.
In other words the same Stratios can have up to 3x 462dps - ouch.
Even though wrecking shots are more rare, penetrating ones are not as rare and looking at my Stratios' dps and combat logs, I estimate the value more at 1.6x 462dps.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
442
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Posted - 2016.07.31 14:26:15 -
[28] - Quote
Dps aready takes dps spread into account, and drone dps is actually lower then paper unlike gun dps which is slightly higher. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1347
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Posted - 2016.07.31 19:38:12 -
[29] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Dps aready takes dps spread into account, and drone dps is actually lower then paper unlike gun dps which is slightly higher.
dps is first and foremost a value, nothing more. And second, I said fitting screen and no, it does not.
Eve Minions is recruiting. Learn from about pvp, learn about ships and how to fly them correctly. Small gang and solo action in high, low and nullsec and w-space alike.
We will teach you everything you need and want to know.
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W0lf Crendraven
Welfcorp
442
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Posted - 2016.08.02 05:39:32 -
[30] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:W0lf Crendraven wrote:Dps aready takes dps spread into account, and drone dps is actually lower then paper unlike gun dps which is slightly higher. dps is first and foremost a value, nothing more. And second, I said fitting screen and no, it does not.
Thats totally meaningless, every stat is a value.And it does. Statement such as Quote: In other words the same Stratios can have up to 3x 462dps - ouch. are hypethical true but getting 3 wrecking hits at once is suuuper unlikely and in normal same size hull fights not that meaningfull, in actual dps terms thats at most 5% in super fast fights. Claiming that you can get that overall (which dps is) is just false.
And assuming that the strat actually does 1.6 times the paper dps? Thats just wrong, if anything you do less then paper. You are just as likely to get 3 lowrolls in a row as 3 highrolls. The only ship that does more dps then paper in any meaningfull manner is a small arty ship in same size hull fights and thats due to guns being frontloaded and fights being over in 2 shots.
Yes you can do more damage per shot then 100% but you can also do less, this evens out to 100% overall so unless the fight is over in one or 2 shots it doesnt really matter.
To quote good old eve uni
Quote: The damage from turrets always has a random factor in it, this is built into the game and can't be avoided. Under ideal conditions, when your hit chance is 100%, the damage done by your turrets will be inside an interval of 50% to 150% of your average damage (your target's resistance will reduce the damage done too). However, things are different when your hit chance decreases. Not only will you have a chance to miss your target, which means no damage done. But also, the damage interval will change as well. That interval is actually from 50% but only up to (50% + hit chance). So if your hit chance is 70%, not only will you miss a few shots, the shots that do hit are now in the damage interval of 50% to 120%. There are thus two simultaneous factors that reduce your damage when your chance to hit goes down. (This description has two tiny intentional errors in it that were used to help explain this concept more easily: the first error is that the damage interval is spread around what is known as base damage, the second error is that the percent interval only has 99 units, more details can be found in the second part below).
The random damage distribution
At the heart of a turret's damage output is a single randomly generated value between 0 and 1 that is several digits long, something like 0.317226. This random number is used both to determine if the turret hits the target and then to determine how much damage the hit actually did. Should the randomly generated number be less than 0.01 (1% chance), it will be a perfect hit (aka "wrecking"). A wrecking hit always deals exactly three times the base damage, exactly, there is no random element in damage from perfect hits. The thing about perfect hits is that they always occur as long as that random number was lower than 0.01 and at the same time lower than the hit chance. So perfect hits are not scored by 1% of the shots that can hit, but by 1% of all hits and misses taken together. This means that if your chance to hit is 1% or less, you will either hit perfectly or you will miss, with no normal hits. The raw damage dealt by a turret is calculated by taking the randomly generated number that resulted in a hit, adding 0.49, and multiplying this sum with the turret's base damage. Since the first 1% of the random value is used for perfect hits, normal hits have a damage spread between 0.50 to 1.49, or 50% to 149% of the base damage, or in the case of perfect hits always exactly 300% of the base damage. This number will then be reduced accordingly by the target's damage resistances in order to obtain the final damage number. The quality of a non perfect hit will be described by the value of the random number + 0.49, ranging from barely scratching (least damage) to excellent (highest damage). Hit descriptionRandom damage modifier Barely scratches0.500GÇô0.625 Hits lightly0.625GÇô0.750 Hits0.750GÇô1.000 Well aimed1.000GÇô1.250 Excellent1.250GÇô1.490 Perfectly3.000 A turret with a 100% hit chance will see a natural and unavoidable damage spread between 50% to 149% of its base damage for normal hits, and will always do exactly 300% of its base damage on perfect hits. A turret with a 75% hit chance will have a damage spread of 50%GÇô124% on normal hits and do 300% on perfect hits, so with a 75% hit chance there can be no excellent hits because they are now turned into misses. Example: A small gatling laser turret fires on target. The chance to hit is 0.8981. The EVE server rolls a random number between 0 and 1, and gets 0.6573GÇöthis is less than the chance to hit so the shot lands on the target. At this point 0.49 is added to the random number which then becomes 1.1473. The turret had a damage multiplier of +ù2.1 and the ammo does 4 EM and 2 Thermal, so the base damage is 2.1 multiplied with 6 (4+2), which is 12.6. After multiplying this with the random number we get the raw damage, which is 1.1473 +ù 12.6 = 14.456. This damage will become lower when resistances have been accounted for. In the combat log the hit will be described as "well aimed."
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